All-In with Chamath, Jason, Sacks & Friedberg

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E3: Modern Cold War between US & China, economic recovery, potential mass migration out of San Francisco, pandemic politicization & more with David Sacks & David Friedberg

by Jason Calacanis
May 21st 2020
01:06:37
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Hey, everybody, Welcome to the all in podcast with Jason Calacanis and she moth Palihapitiya. We record this podcast well on. Ah, a really unique scheduled to mouth. What's our schedule right now? Whenever we feel like it. Basically, it is whenever our significant others get so sick of us, they take us up and say, Don't come back. Yeah, we have thrown to the pool house. We decided to pop up the podcast. You're in, Atherton. I'm in the city in San Francisco. Thank you. Duke of Discretion. Is there anything else you'd like to dio by gate code Gate off the fence? Um, way had two guests on that. People just went absolutely crazy for the two day weren't available. So we're just gonna talk shit about them way have two amazing David's in our lives David Freedberg and David Sacks. And they are super smart, super effective at their work. Everything. We're not Sheymov. And so we thought we'd bring them back on the podcast. And we'll do a little round table here and talk about life in the age

of Corona. So welcome back to the podcast, David Sacks. Yeah. Good to good to be back with you and also David Freedberg. Thank you, guys. Happy to be here. Alright, Fantastic. So I just want to start off with our coir check. How is everybody doing in this quarantine house? Everybody's mental health. Let's start with you. Sex. Well, as you might be able to see, we've moved our bunker Thio undisclosed Mexican location. Uh, you know, and it's been great. Um, you know, we you know, I think it's really kind of sad because where we're at is is a tourist city that would normally be, um, at peak season, and it's just deserted. Right now, all the construction stopped. Normally, you see, lots of, you know, hotels and houses being built, and that's all stopped and there's no tourists. So it's all this kind of cleared out, but I think it's quite safe. You know, every

worker that I've seen here since we landed at the airport, you know, God transported toe to this community were at, I mean has been wearing a mask much more consistent than I think in the U. S. And you know, I think it's been it's been fine. Now, of course, you founded uh, the craft venture capital firm and people know before that, you obviously did. Yammering sold that Microsoft for a billion dollars plus. And before that, you are the CEO of PayPal. What's going on with your business? Are you actively investing on? And how is your firm running remote? Um, it zits worked very well. I mean, we've always been super collaborative as a firm. We were always were already on zoom. And we were you know, we share everything on the Amer, um, s O for us. Just moving to zoom wasn't that difficult. We've done four or five deals, I think since, uh, the whole kind of quarantine started

. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Did you did you say that you actually use yammer now? 2020. We're still using it. Oh, my God. Is yammer still available? That's insane, E. I mean, it's kind of got a little bit buried inside of Microsoft, but you could certainly still get it. And no, we love it. I mean, the whole firm kind of works works in the hammer, and it works very well for us. And now what's gonna happen with this incredible office that you have this beautiful office you have in San Francisco and commercial real estate. Now that are you going to come back to work? We start Twitter, um, and square the jack collection of companies. They're not going to come back to their offices, their work from home, primarily going forward. What are you going to dio? Well, it will be a great asset for us in the year 2025 or something like that. No, I mean, we will eventually go back toe work there. Um, I think that the team still likes having an office. I think you know the idea that everyone wants to work out of, like, a small room and, you know, extra room in their house. I think probably getting is probably overrated. I think people

would like to get back to the office, but do we have toe have one? No. I mean, I think we've proven that we can do our jobs via zoom and, you know, we've done a lot of we've done. Like I said, we've done four or five deals since it started where we haven't met with the entrepreneur in person. You know, it's all been done by a zoom and it zwart great. Alright, come off. How are you doing? What? What? Your mental health. Like I You know, I get to see you once in a while on CNBC throwing bombs. Um, but how are you doing? I was really excited for, uh, phase two of the shelter in place. Thio, start here in San Mateo County, so that's been really good. Um, a new poker table that I had built arrived today, which I'll be installing after this And what I mean by I'll be installing, uh, you'll be supervising, be supervising. You will be watching, as people do really were watching

. And it's a beautiful table. I saw the pictures of additional infinity edge. Is it an infinity edge pool table? No, no, no, no. But I'll send you a picture when it's all done, but it just looks stunning. Um, and I really want to try to organize the game soon so that I could get you guys back into the, um, into my little cave here. Yeah, I am ready for this shelter and place to end. I'll just be honest. And I think that my sentiments are the sentiments of a lot of people. It zits really tough really, really tough. I'm losing all my motivation to be what else? It is weird to not see people even. And you're an extrovert, David, you're an introvert. And then David Freeburg also on the line. David, how are you handling all of this? I'm fine. I think one of the things that made a huge difference for me is the creating a rhythm in the day because there isn't one. When you kind of normally get up when you goto work and then you come home at the end of the day from work, that's a rhythm, and your you kind of get

kind of adjusted to it. So not having that a lot of people I've been hearing and struggling with that I was certainly struggling with it having sleep issues. And I sit on about a dozen boards, some of which have small companies, some of which have a couple 100 employees. And I've been hearing pretty consistently mental health issues across all the companies on. I think it's just been really grating on people. I think it number one kind of says we probably do need to be together and have social space, A David said like being in the same office. People really miss that, and you get a lot of value from that, Um, and so I've been getting up every day in the last couple of weeks and going off site going out of my house to go work. We're actually working on another place that I have, like a little office there, and I go kind of work there on DSO. That's made a huge impact, honestly, on my mental health, being able to do that every day. So just doing that's been been helpful. Not everyone has that privilege, but I think it speaks a lot to why we're going to need to go back to offices when this is all about. And what do you think about what's happening with your business is, Obviously you're running a startup studio, I guess

would be one way to describe it where you create companies and then spin them out. What's been the business interruption, if any. We have a couple of hardware and lab cos that's most of what we've done. And so those operations air paused. So that's been really frustrating. The teams have all found ways to adjust and work from home. So our company's air, not predominantly software based. There's a lot of software, but it's not predominately software. So it's been difficult on those scientists and engineers that work in a lab or in a physical environment that they have to go to to do their work. The largest companies, we have a number of food businesses that happened to be in the food supply chain, one way or another. Frankly, those businesses they're doing fantastically well on. There's been just this incredible success in the era of Cove. It on kind of a focus on fundamentals like food supply, chain efficiency, availability of things that people need on. We were doing a lot of human health, and we've kind of benefited from that. Um, so yeah, I think there's kind of a mix for us, but I think every business is bifurcated one way or another during this kind of moment of punctuated

equilibrium. Yeah, I think one thing I'd like to sort of talk about is we've had you both on the podcast early on at the start of the pandemic. And I'm curious Jamaat now that we're here, um, over two months in quarantine, sheltering in place and a lot of information. A lot of cards have turned over here, right? We've seen the flop. I think we haven't seen the turn and the river, so to speak. What is your assessment of what we were talking about? You know, a month or two ago and what we thought about this and what's become reality and what hasn't. What do you more optimistic about? What do you more pessimistic about your mouth? Let's start with you. I think that we will have this pandemic or this disease well in hand within two years. And so, whether it's a combination of a therapeutic and the vaccine or just a therapeutic, um, I just think that we're gonna kick its ass. And so that's made me more optimistic. Um, I

think that the thing that's made me more pessimistic, though, is the return to normalcy has been sort of cut on political lines, and it's been so massively politicized. I mean, when David talks about the fact that you know, you could go to a developing country like Mexico and all of a sudden you know, everybody could get around the idea of masks. It's because that There's a level of common sense there that trumps politics. And in the United States, that just isn't the case. And so what you're seeing in this crazy way, I think, is sort of the center left on the left, uh, probably sticking very firmly to the ideology of sheltering in place and a lock down, probably on the sort of hope that it gets Trump out of office and on the other side, sort of the Red States. I think I basically said, Hey, I would rather get sick from coronavirus and take my chances then the 100% chance of failure that I

have in my professional life if you leave me at home for another week or month or what have you? Um, so that's been a huge disappointment of of how political this whole thing has gotten. And sacks you've been talking about, like, common sense procedures, Sort of same question to you, what you first thought and you have been talking about you thought in l shape recovery. So we'll get into also the economy here. But in terms of the disease, what did you think two months ago that you don't think now and What do you think? Uh, well, in preparation for this, I kind of went through my twitter feed to see what I was saying the last time I was on the pod and how well it was holding up two months ago. Today, I tweeted that pandemic, but that under reaction caused the pandemic and overreaction will cause the depression. And I think that's kind of where we are right now. We still have this pandemic with us, but now we're also potentially facing, I think, a potential depression because of the way we're overreacting

. We're still in lockdowns on bond, you know, huge swaths of the country. Um, and no one can quite understand why. I mean, the original reason for the lockdowns was Tobias time so that the hospitals wouldn't become overwhelmed. Like Italy. Well, nowhere in the country to the hospitals get overwhelmed. And we're still in these lockdowns and on dso You know, I I think that it's is long overdue for it to end now. At the same time, you know, where I agree with trauma that this whole things become politicized where, um, you know the people who generally wanna get us out of lockdowns don't believe in doing anything, you know, they're not Even a lot of them aren't even willing to wear masks, which I think it's just kind of insane. Um, so you know, where I come out on this thing is that I think we should end lockdowns, but where? Mass. And it's very hard to find anybody you know, in the political spectrum who agrees with that because, you

know, one side wants to keep lockdowns going indefinitely and the other doesn't want to store mass. And it makes no logical sense, obviously. And if you think about our political system, the left is so far left that the moderates on the left side don't have a place to live anymore. And then on the right, the conservatives, which I would put you in the group of who were, um, you know, looking for fiscal conservative conservatives. Um, they don't have a home anymore, either. And so the most reasonable approach is clearly to start going back to work for people who are not at risk and who wear a mask. Yeah, I think I think there's been since last pod that we did together. I think there's been three kind of major discoveries or sets of facts that have come out about the virus. Number one. Um, the official fatality rate has been over, which is about 6%. Um, you know, it's a very high fatality rates very scary, but we now know that that's overstated by probably

at least 10 acts, because it doesn't take into account all the the asymptomatic cases or mild cases that just never got tested on. But this is the fatality rate of people who contracted the virus. Aziz. Yes, exactly. A supposed to people whose case the problem with the It's kind of a debate between the the i f r versus the CFR, the infection fatality rate versus case fatality rate. The problem with kind of the official CFR numbers is that only the people who got really sick or you never got tested. And, um, you know, Freeburg was the earliest person, Um, I know to start talking about the need for wide scale population testing and these blood serology tests and other kinds of tests to establish what the real baseline is. Um, but regards of like and there's been a whole bunch of different tests with different results. You know, um, we don't know exactly what the true I Afar is to this day, but we do know it's probably closer to half

a percent than 25%. So that's sort of discovery. Number one. I think Discovery number two is, and we knew a little bit. We saw a little bit of this from the Wuhan data, but now it's really clear that which populations are at risk. And it's, you know, the data seems to suggest that people under 60 who are healthy don't have sort of pre existing conditions. Our 50 times, um, less likely to develop our there's there's a 50 x greater chance for those over 60 in terms of, you know, having a really bad outcome. Um, and so for people under 60 who don't have these pre existing conditions, it's, you know, it's just not Yes, there's always, you know, examples to the contrary. But it's not this this sort of gigantic risk, and so for two thirds of the population, they don't have a huge risk, and we're still locking them down. I think the third thing, the third study, um, not just study, there's There's been studies, and there's been models. And then we have also

seen practice. Um, is that wide scale use of mass sort of ubiquitous mass wearing, um is sufficient to control the virus, meaning to to stop the exponential ality of the virus we've seen, you know, in the Asian countries or Czechoslovakia, other places they've been able to get the, you know, the so called are not that the, you know, the viral coefficient to go below one with, you know, white scale use of mass. And so we have a way to prevent the virus from going exponential. That doesn't require lockdowns. Um, and so the thing you know, I I blogged about the last time I was on your show is Why would you do this most severe thing, these lockdowns, and not do this easy thing? That's just merely inconvenient, Which is a mess, Freeburg. When you look at it and you're the I think have the deepest science clearly of the deepest science background of all of us. What? What? How do you look at this pandemic? Uh, now that we're

75 days into it here in the Bay area, and obviously you know that started in December. It looks like in China. What's your take on it? Now, What did you get right early? And what have you changed your mind about recently? Um, I think I'm actually funny when you say that. I just pulled up the original W h O Joint mission on CO vid final report. And the date of this report, by the way, is February 20th. So there was this big thing. They published 40 pages long from the W h O. And in it, they highlighted, you know, the fatality rate estimate inside of hoob. You know, Wuhan and outside of Hubei. And they, you know, we knew from this data very early on that we were at about a half percent fatality rate. And then, you know, we saw all of this other stuff happened with Korea and the Princess Cruise ship in the NBA players Very early on, we saw all these people that were roughly asymptomatic, and we're starting to get to kind of explanations for why that is. But from the beginning, I felt really like, you know, this is gonna be a largely

, um, asymptomatic kind of spreading, uh, infectious factor. What? What I got wrong was when we went into lock down. I don't know Jamaat. If you remember this when we talked the first time on Jason's on your guys podcast, I asked, You guys, are you guys asked me when I thought we'd be back and I was like, Oh, April 7th, we'll be back to work And I also had a bet going with you guys and I said, We're gonna have less than 20,000 deaths in the U. S. I so overestimated the effectiveness of the lock down. And I think that was kind of, you know, one of the more kind of like striking things to me is the quote unquote locked down. And I just sent the video to Nick. Nick, do you have it? Can you cure it up? So basically I This is what I think has happened in the United States. Like pull this thing up. I was in Berkeley on Saturday and I went to play to meet some buddies, and we played Frisbee golf on campus and had a beer, some college buddies of mine. And so I'm walking around in Berkeley and there is frat party after frat party going on No mask. Everyone's on top of each other. You could see the video right here. I took a video. E. Yeah

, they're all playing beer pong. There's like girls and drinking and people are passing around bottles of vodka and there's no math. And this was the entire campus of Berkeley like, And I think this is what's gone on, like around the country. So the belief that you could just kind of like, lock away the virus, I believe, like, Oh my God, there's it's so extreme. It's so draconian we're gonna shut down the world And this thing is gonna get stopped in 30 days, like happened in China. That is not what happened in the United States of America. Like people want to be free. People wanna party, People wanna live their life, they wanna goto work, they want to see their friends and family, and they they're not used to being told no by the government on dso. I think that's been to me the biggest surprises, just like how ineffective the quote unquote lock down has been. And I think it really speaks to the need that David mentioned, which is this lock down isn't binary. You can't just say lock everyone down or let them all out. You've got a nuance your way to a solution, which means like masks. Which means watching out for nursing homes, which means temperature checking before letting people in the buildings of over 100 people like all the stuff that I think needs to be done for this too. The kind of effective, you know

, tracking and tracing. And we can't just assume that, you know, a quote unquote locked down is gonna keep people inside and keep this thing from spreading because the frat party is you'll see is the perfect representation of what? What's really going on out there? Alright. Circling back around to you trim off. What? What do you think of what the two Davids sort of outlined there in terms of the path forward and how we all handicapped what was going on? Well, I think the reality is that Bye. Um, hook or crook, we're gonna basically exit this lock down sooner than we think, because I think people just can't take it anymore. So there's no point in having a shelter in place order. If everybody's running around playing beer Pong? Um and so it's not doing anything on DSO. You might as well get the productive value of Theis economy going again by letting people go back to work. Um, you know, we and just finding some simple ways that people

can look past the politics and just do the right thing. We're a goddamn mask and shut the fuck up and go back to work. It's really like, I mean, when you think about it, it's like, Why is this such a big deal? Um, get everything you want and just put a little bit of cloth over your face. I mean, a lot of the folks that pushback on this, um, you know, they're they're better off wearing the mask. Yeah. I mean, it is pretty striking when you watch the protest and you see a bunch of people who are, you know, obviously older and obviously be those air, not the best looking knives in the drawer. Let's just put it that way. Not definitely not, and little dull. And rusty is what I would say. Well, and, you know, they're carrying guns, and they've never served a day in the army. I mean, it's their literally cost playing Marines. I have nothing to say about that. I think this whole mask thing is not such a big deal. Just, uh, if you could wear a mask and get back to being productive and get back to a job, I think you should be allowed to. All right, So we had a big debate. V shaped w

shaped, U shaped l shaped recovery. I was in the I'm aspirational e V shaped, but I'm expecting a you sacked. You were the Al and I think Jamaat ur the w the You are the AL. We've had a V. How do you explain Mammoth what is going on in the stock market? Because you said it was the end of days. You said this is gonna be a disaster. Is it going to be disaster? Is this the end of the days? And we've got some false rebound, and this V shaped recovery is not sustainable. How do you explain this unexplainable V shaped responsibility response? There's two things to keep in mind. Um, first of all, the economy is completely fucked, so don't don't question, you know, don't look at Facebook, apple, Amazon, Microsoft Google in a handful of, you know, Internet SAS companies and and kid yourself. We have 30 million American men and women out of work. That is, every fifth person you see walking down the street does not have a job. What happens when locked down end? If we if the lock down

ends in June, as expected for most people, how many people are? How many pound? Yeah, yeah, so So, look, here's the thing that we've had. We've had trillions of dollars of money printed into the system. And when you print that money into the system which the Federal Reserve has done, it hits the asset markets, and it is basically stabilized. The bond market and the incremental dollar sits in the hands of an individual who must put the money to work. Because when you look back on this, this is not, you know, uh, a random person managing their 41 K the overwhelming majority. The money sits in that sits in the hands of hedge funds or pension funds or sovereign wealth funds or mutual funds. They have a job to do. And so you have to think about what is their incremental decisions So even if the stock market made no sense on any evaluation metric, the incremental dollar that they have, which they're paid to put the work will get put to work. And so what you've actually seen is a dispersion

. And what I mean by that is if you graph the S and P 500 Index versus the unweighted s and P 500 index, which basically means the first one ranks companies by market cap and gives the biggest companies more weight. The other one ranks every company equally. There's been a massive split, a dispersion, and what it really shows is that companies a traffic in bits. So software businesses have a bit and companies that trafficking atoms have gotten completely decimated and there are literally worthless. Um, And so when you put all these things things together, the real economy is in the toilet. There are tens of millions of, you know, men and women out of work. The earnings power of riel. Companies that do physical things in the world are cheaper and lower than they've ever been. Meanwhile, the companies that have a high velocity, high margin software driven businesses have gone to the moon. So it's

unfair to look at 30 or 40 businesses and paint that as a as a V shaped recovery. It is a equity market that is buoyed by Fed dollars that is not mapping to the reality of what's happening on the ground. Okay, so sacks, you're you're pretty plugged into the economy. You think about this a lot. What do you think the recovery looks like? Is this going to be 2345 quarter recession? Is it going to be Depression era? Like some people are apt to say, What keeps you up at night thinking about the economy and what gives you hope? Well, it kind of depends if there are other shoes to drop eso. I agree with trauma that you know the state of the economy right now is terrible, and it's divorced from the financial markets because of you know, all the money printing and interventions that the Fed and Treasury are you know have been doing, Um, you know what? One way to think about it is, well, the stock markets denominated in US dollars and if you know, they just printed a whole bunch

more of them those dollars are worth less. And so, you know, the price of the stocks are gonna rise. Um, but but yeah, I think looking forward, um, you know, I It's probably gonna be a 2 to 3 year process to get out of this unless some other shoe drops, which could make it much worse. So you're you're betting on 2 to 3 years to get back to Let's call it single digit unemployment. Um well, let's see. We're at, like, what, 15% right now or something like that. So 35 million people get down Thio, you know, 10 million again. 20 million. It's hard to say. It's gonna take a long time and create all those jobs. You know, a lot of these businesses are not just gonna come, you know, racing right back. Um, so, yeah, I think it's probably like a 2 to 3 or process to get back to some sort of, you know, and and by the way, the thing you have to remember is like, look, the unemployment numbers that we have had in the last probably seven or eight years during

Obama and Trump have been completely manipulated because the number of people that are entirely leaving the workforce is quite high. And so you know, it's not just a in numerator problem. We have a denominator problem, too. There are fewer and fewer workers that you know are willing to work because some of them just give up right or it's just not worth it, for the pay that's available is another state. So the thing that we're gonna have to figure out is like, How many of the people that are leaving the workforce may never come back and that has, ah, societal toll and wait that we all have to bear. Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of people who maybe are in their sixties or maybe even late fifties. They got 10, 20 years left that they could be working in management sales, whatever it is, and they just say, You know what? It's not worth it. I'm going to go try to find a place to stay and maybe not rejoined the workforce, early retirement or just capitulation. Yeah, well, and but, you know, remember I said about other shoes dropping

. I mean, we were still in the early. I think we're still in the early stages, seeing the repercussions of what you know, but to three months shut down the economy. You know what? What that's gonna look like and so the, you know, the wave of defaults is just beginning. And, um, you know, who knows what happens with cities and states on DSO on down the line? I mean, who knows, you know, do the debt markets have kind of an inexhaustible, um, you know, desire for thio, you know, to buy us debt, Or could we reach some sort of saturation point on down that triggers the next you know, set of crises. So we just you know, I would say like that the 2 to 3 year outlook is is the one that's kind of like what it looks like today. But if there are these other big shoes to drop, it could turn into something much worse. E think Friedberg. We're all in agreement that there will be a second wave of some type just depends on how big the spike is. Do you think there'll be another

New York City level outbreak where we'll see you know, 2000 people, 1500 people dying in a certain region every day for some sustained period of time where the chance of that happening Freeburg I don't know. I mean, I think going forward the you know, the New York situation people's behavior have been shocked. So, you know, to the points earlier, the most effective thing you could do is stop coughing on your hand, touching a railing. Someone else touches the railing and touches their mouth. I mean, that's kinda how this goes. Um, you know, there's been early on some weird, like, arrow stylized aerosolized study That kind of said, Hey, this thing spreads in the air and so on. It's really you know, you gotta be in a closed kind of confined space. So people are wearing masks now, So the likelihood of the transmission happening at the rate that we saw in New York. Great paper out of M I. T. By the way, that shows how this happened on the subway. Oh, really? Identify identify the subway as kind of the primary vector that drove transmission in New York City. That was always my thesis

, and I remember talking about and saying How is this not obvious to everybody that eight million people, right that thing every day or something like it, So I didn't. They did an incredible job proving it. So it's not like people running in Central Park with spreading coronavirus. Each other's everyone in these confined spaces coughing in the air. And then you kind of get this stuff and 20 people get on and off at every stop. That's the other thing people don't realize is that it's not just a bunch of people. It's not an airplane where you have X number of people going in one direction for 345 hours. This is 20 people getting on and off every five minutes. It's almost like you couldn't design a better incubator for it. And I don't think a city in the United States approaches the density that you have in New York. So remember, these are not deterministic factors. There's like a spectrum of probabilistic spectrum here, so you have a lot of people. They have a certain type of behavior. They're not wearing masks. You kinda add these up and you end up with this really high kind of vector that drives this, uh, this rapid spread as we saw in New York City. You know, you're not going to see that in Dallas. You're going to see that in Houston. You're going to see that in San Diego, you're gonna have more of the slow, steady burn. A

some risk is taken in the environment. Some risk is taken by frat parties and people not wearing masks and people touching their mouth. But it's not gonna have the same sort of massive effect we saw in New York, so I wouldn't expect us to have a New York style second wave. I do expect there to continue to be this, like slow burn going forward of new cases. And it's certainly going to be more obvious now that we're testing a lot more and so trauma. At this point, we're basically putting ah price on life and saying, Hey, some amount of deaths is worth taking the risk. And as Americans a unique group of people in the world and how we look at personal freedom, Americans are just making the choice. Hey, listen, if you don't want to take the risk, stay home. But the rest of us, if we want to take the risk, we're gonna go take the risk. That's what this has come down to when your mind's month. Yeah, I think that it's very difficult for Americans. Thio, um envision a world where, like, you know, their personal freedoms air infringed upon. I mean, it's sort of like one of one of the founding principles of the entire

country. Um, this is why I think that the tragedy of this thing is that the way to get everybody what they want is so simple, a za David said. It's like, you know, above 65 you stay home, you work remotely under 65 you temperature check and wear a mask, and you know your 95% of the way there. But it's become a left versus right decision to do it. You know, the mass squares air still in a locked down and the non mass squares want to get back to work and basically, like there's, there's it's just it's just another kind of culture war between the left and the right. Um, it's it's really just shocking to me. I mean, I might for for for for what it's worth, you know, if I was, I am a betting man, so I'll just tell you. You know, my line now is that I think that Donald Trump is overwhelmingly likely to win as a function of people's frustration about the lockdowns. And I think that the Democrats best hope of winning in November is ending these things sooner rather than later. It's amazing we're talking about

a pandemic or once in 100 year pandemic. It looks like, and we're literally looking at our reaction to it through the lens of this president being re elected or not like, literally, That's the determining factor on the advice we're giving to people. We're telling people they can't go to the beach, but they can be on an airplane. They can't go to the Tesla factory, but they can ride the subway. I mean, on a communication basis. Is there any worse way we could have communicated this to the populist? Well, the communication was bad, but the I think the bigger problem quite honestly, is that the Republican Democratic governors in the United States can't get on the same page, and at the same time there's just a tendency to support Donald Trump or not support him in a very reflexive, instinctive way that isn't helpful right now, and uh, there just doesn't seem to be enough political wherewithal and courage to just stand up and do the right thing. Independent of what? You're what your political persuasion is

. So but But I think at on the margin now, I think you have different but very similar boundary conditions to 2016. Where there are all these people that kind of like, told you one thing and did another. They're all these people right now that probably are, you know, preference, falsifying as we speak and you know they'll show up into the voting booth and they'll be angry if they're not back in their jobs, especially if they've been laid off by a ZA result of not being able to get back. And they would blame that on the Democrats, not the Republicans. And therefore Trump gets his next term well, because the it's it's the Democratic States, that air pushing the hardest that basically like, you know, you saw the craziness in Los Angeles. But like, you know, Eric Garcetti was basically like, we will enter the shelter in place and, you know, December of 2022 it's like this is it's Los Angeles Yeah, it's not gonna happen, You know, players gotta play. I mean, like, this is just is unbelievable. Well, the I dio agree the lockdowns the or the unwillingness to end the lockdowns

, um, gives Trump an issue for November. Assuming this continues, that supersedes the incompetence of the covert response, which is that, you know, our lives and livelihood, Czar not owned by politicians to, you know, meter out and give back to us in drips and drafts and azi they see fit. That is the issue that the lock down crowd is is giving to Trump. And I do think it will. If it's still the issue in November, it will supersede the, you know, the initial incompetence of the covert response. And what did you think of this whole, Um What's the drug that Trump said he was taking? David Sacks? Drug drug? Yeah. So? Or Freeburg? Maybe you take it. Um, we talked about that early on, and that I think you properly said, like if you took it earlier, this could be, you know, uh, could have potential taking it later. It's probably too late. I think you nailed that on the pod last time. why

has this become such a political issue? And what are your thoughts on that drug specifically and its potential efficacy? Look, I'm not a doctor, but it from what I understand, um, is there is, uh, so just so you know, there's, like, side effects to this drug for a small percentage of the population. And, uh, this drug can actually inhibit, um, energy production in certain cells, which can cause organs to dysfunction on particularly shows up in the heart. So people end up with what's called a long QT interval and potentially some heart issues that could be pretty dangerous and deadly, depending on your body. So it's really a little bit of an unknown. There's also issues longer term with vision impairment, can damage your retinal cells and cause vision loss. So there's risk to this drug. It's not like taking, you know, um, Advil. Um, it is a It is a measured risk. It's a low probability, but the severity can be high. And so typically, with a scenario like that, doctors and scientists like to see, you

know, phased clinical trials, and you kind of do you know, randomized and you have placebo and testing. And so that hasn't necessarily been done for this particular virus. This particular condition onda Often the design of those studies matters a lot, so you could give it to a bunch of quote unquote cove. It patients. But if it's not being given to covert patients either before or right as they're getting sick, maybe it doesn't show the results that you would expect from a prophylactic treatment meeting. You're getting it before you're really sick. And that's where it may be the most efficacious, Um, and so some people are saying, Wait, we don't know enough. Don't do it. It's not worth the risk because of that small percentage high severity problem, while others they're saying, Oh my gosh, it's totally worth the risk is the downside. If you get coronavirus could be really bad and you know it. So there's a lot of room for debate here. And when there's a lot of room for debate, you usually kind of revert to some sort of base belief for some base kind of political point of view or something. And I think that's what's gone on here. This isn't a clear cut. The sun is the is yellow on the sky is blue kind of conversation. This is

like I could interpret this a lot of different ways. Um, it does seem that, like, look, this drug, you know, like a lot of has an effect in the same way that a lot of other that this drug might have in a lot of other viruses. Um, And this especially plus zinc, you know, And this Z pack of this zip remission, which is an antibiotic together, maybe. Really, um, effective. And so, yeah, if you weigh the downside and the probability of that downside for patient against what the potential upside would be depending on their risk factors, Now that we know those better for covet, you can make an educated decision. And maybe it should just be left in the hands of doctors versus, like, have some national statement about it. I don't know, Um, but yeah, it's certainly a lot of room for debate, and thus a lot of kind of, you know, political engagement on this Saks is there was a lot of talk about what the Bay Area looks like after this, whether it's commercial, real estate would twitter and square going full work from home on DPI. Peled not wanting to work in cities. What do your general thoughts on what the world

looks like a year from now and maybe five years from now, if there is going to be some permanent change, what do you think it would be? Well, there could be a big re sorting. I mean, it kind of depends if the virus becomes endemic into something we kind of end up living with. Um, but you know eso Let's if it does. I mean, if you're, like, over 70 are you really gonna want to stay in a place like New York City or you're gonna wanna go somewhere else? And so I could imagine if this does become this long term thing, that's just endemic. Yeah, we don't. If we don't have the vaccine, I could see cities resorting where, you know, New York is people who are comfortable with Covad risk, and you know it, Z, I think San Francisco, the big issue with San Francisco is that, um there are always a bunch of reasons not to wanna live there. I mean, the city that seems like chronically mismanaged. Um, there's a huge lots of poop. The huge homeless problem. It's

just, you know, public health issues. With that, there's there's a lot of crime that isn't responding to properly. So there's all these, like reasons not to live there. But the reason why people chose to live there is because the tech industry had a very strong network effect and you needed to be in Silicon Valley or San Francisco in orderto have access to these jobs and opportunities. And if those jobs opportunities were now available via Zoom and you could be doing them from anywhere, are people still going to choose to live in San Francisco? You know, with And it's, you know, with the the cost of living and housing and apartments and all the restaurant that that goes that goes along with it. So, yeah, I mean, I think there is some chance that this whole remote work thing could break um, Silicon Valley's network effect. And that would be really bad for places like San Francisco, which, you know otherwise, might not be the greatest places to live. Yeah, my visas on this in terms of getting out of the recession, I think remote work could

lead to a level of efficiency and profitability in the companies that we have never seen before. If you think just about every manager now knows how to manage remote workers, right, you learn that in like 34 weeks. You figure out how to manage people remote. Even people who hated managing people remote All these Gen Xers and boomers who are managing, you know, millennials and earlier Gen Xers they now know how to do it, and what they quickly learn is these three or four people in my team are crushing it. These two or three people don't need to be here. They're not actually adding any value. So I think what's gonna happen is they're going to cut the bottom people. Then they're going to cut their office space. Now you've removed, I don't know, call it 30% of the cost basis of a business 40%. It's operating better, and people are happier. And then when you do hire somebody, there's gonna be more talent available and you've just opened it up that you could hire somebody anywhere in the world without an office, and you don't have to relocate

them and you don't have to pay. I don't know what you guys think. The average additional cost is to be in San Francisco, but I'm gonna say $30,000. So a $40,000 a year job or $50,000 a year job becomes a 70 or 80 something like that. And if all that happens, these companies are gonna be so profitable that they're going to start growing. And that leads us out of the, um, economic downturn. Any thoughts on my my thesis? That's not a thesis. That's a hope. Yeah. Hope is not a fucking strategy, Jason. Well, I just think it's a potential way out. I think E mean, what do you think in general about this trend of remote, then trauma? I think it's great. And I think that we're realizing that, um, you know, there's no monopoly on innovation, and companies can be, uh, really productive remotely that most of the work in an office is busy work and politics, and you can cut it all out, and you could do, uh, the same amount of work in much less time, which gives you more

time to frankly be with your family or take up a hobby or learn a second language or third language. I mean, I just think it's so much better for people to realize, like we gotta you know, it's not like you, you know it's not. It's not 18 20 or 1920. It's 2020. So we're gonna live to 100 years old, like we have a long time to be in the grind. And so, um, you know, working and accomplishing what you used to in half the time and not having to commute and being able to live where you want your people you like, man, that has a huge positive impact to your kids. You, your community. It's just way better. I just think offices air just complete, kind of like it's all Shakespearean theater in the end, and cutting it all out is great. And specifically, San Francisco is just a complete cess pool dump of shit. And so, you know, being able to get out of that city. All right, everybody, welcome to the you're listening to the college. I

read some stats yesterday that were just so unbelievably shocking. Like the number of break ins, the number of, uh, number one in the country. They're number one in the country. The amount of disease that, like communicable disease, like typhoid. And I'm like typhoid. I I was born in a country and scratched and clawed to emigrate as a refugee to leave a country that had typhoid as a disease Welcome your mom just to end up back in that in San Francisco. That zone with that's an absolute joke. So, um yeah. I mean, the idea that I'd never have to go to San Francisco ever again is Oh, my God, it brings joy to me. It is, Ah, is an unmitigated disaster. This And I think this will be part of the boom bust cycle that you know, David, you were part of when you hear it. Stanford, You know, getting an office in San Francisco or having an apartment. It was cheaper, I think, in the city than it was down in Palo Alto. Was it not well back in? Yeah. When we moved hammer toe San Francisco

, which was 2009. I think we were able to get space for $20 a foot per year. Crazy e what? I paid 2007 e read it I read it. I read a crazy article. Um, it was about the Kushner's and this building that they own that Brookfield Asset Management was gonna buy. And and it said that they bought this building. And so the Kushner's moved toe like Park Avenue, the General Motors building overlooking Central Park or something, right? There's a beautiful building, and it actually quoted in there the price that they were paying It was incredible because it was, like, 100 bucks a square foot per year. And I realized, Oh, my God, they're paying less for Central Park views in New York that I'm paying for a warehouse in Palo Alto. Ah, fuck is going on. This makes no sense whatsoever. That would be supply and demand right there on I thought to myself like, this is this'll is crazy. Like California is so expensive. The taxes are so high. Uh

, e think people will are gonna leave in droves. Honestly, what do we think of Ellen on selling all those homes and then actually saying he's gonna leaving, you know, move tests out. I mean, I don't think it's a practical reality to move Tesla out of out of California. I think that the incremental facilities could be built wherever he wants him to be built based on where he gets a tax incentives. Well, but I think the Tesla Fremont was a really good example of this sort of like culture war that's going on, this this political battle over lockdowns. And, um, you know, you had kind of, ah, mid level health department bureaucrat in Fremont, padlocking their factory and saying they couldn't go back to work. Um, whereas if he was in Texas, he could on Ben, You know, around the same time you have this whole, like, Chile Luther thing in Texas, where she was a small business owner, you know, owns ah, like a haircut place. And she was basically put in jail for a week for giving somebody a haircut

, and there was, like, a, you know, dust up over that. So, you know, I think that, like, you know, the country is certainly ready to get back to work. And if this is the political debate, you know, in November, I'm not sure we'll be because six months, a really long time from now. But was it 45 months? Um, but If this is a political debate, I you know this. This will be the way that Trump gets re elected. Mhm. Yep, I think there's going to be some pretty significant benefits because of the reaction you guys air speaking, too. It's not just about people moving, but it's, ah, reaction to regulation. And that could have some pretty profound effects that could benefit certain sectors and businesses and accelerate new outcomes. One of the things that you know I have a strong belief in is like I think in 20 years we could kind of eradicate all infectious disease. The only thing holding that up is regulation. Because the science is known, the engineering is basically

there, and it's simply a function of getting these things approved and getting across the finish line. Doing gene editing in humans for genetic mutations that cause harm to humans is this is a technique that we've known for 20 years, and there was a guy, a patient that died in 1999 from one of the first a A V treatments, the viral vector gene editing treatments. After that, there was this clampdown and suddenly everything stopped and there was like no longer any progress in this space, and they're just now starting to come back. And there's a lot of, you know, really interesting technology that has been kind of hindered. I mean, you know, not being able to put Tesla's out, I think, is the tip of the iceberg of what people are seeing regulation could do to businesses. And look, I'm by no stretch, you know, Libertarian Party card carrier. But I do think, and I see it in businesses that I'm involved in all the time that this, you know, incredibly onerous, like overreaching, regulatory burden and bureaucrats really

hinder great new things from happening in the world. Um, and it's just become so freaking apparent how inept the people are that are making the decisions that are doing this to us are during this crisis. And I think it could have a profound benefit on kind of deregulation and accelerating the adoption of new tools and new technologies that could really help us all. Um, so I view the positive side of this. It's not just like everyone's gonna leave California like there's inept bureaucrats and overregulation everywhere. Let's talk to you politics for a moment to meth. You know, you heard the president called the Wuhan virus. Obviously, there's no doubt that it came from there. There is a debate. Was this something that was not created in a lab but that was being studied in the lab and accidentally got out? And that's how they jump happened. And there's some tension there between China and the US. What do you think the global reaction is going to be? And the fallout will be for China if any Japan is paying factories. I read on helping subsidize them to move factories out of China so they could move that

dependency. We always saw the dependency on PPE and drugs being made actually in Wuhan in that area and how we don't have a supply chain that we can rely on for really mission critical stuff. How do how will we look at this Chinese relationship in the United States and global post pandemic? This is the beginning of the modern Cold War. And so it's America versus China. Um, except that China is a much mawr worthy adversary for us than the U. S. S. R. S S. R was at their peak and the reason is because China has been making strategic investments for the last 30 years. Um, you know, the biggest thing that prevents China from really going guns blazing broadside attack on the U. S. Is that the U. S. Dollar is still the reserve currency of the world. But even there China, you know, is trying to do a digital currency and a stable coin and thes air All these state sponsored initiatives

that come from, frankly, just strategic decision making to try to usurp the United States as the most powerful country in the world. On dso again, it goes back to Is this a political issue or is this an ideological issue? Or is this an exceptionalism issue? Or is justice the practical reality that we do not want another country being number one And can we all agree on? If we can all agree, then I don't think they'll win. Where do you Where do you sit on it for you? Is it practical? Is it ideological? Completely practical. I have zero. Like, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot because I have not done any investments. And I just did my first, uh, it has been three months, and I did, and it was a credit deal, so it's not even equity. Um, and, uh, you know, I was and I was reflecting on What? What am I trying to do? Because I felt myself frenetically, you know, spending and working too much and, you know, looking at all these different opportunities

. And I realized, Wait a minute. Like my job here is not to win some finite game like this is not ending like a basketball game or a stalker match. This is like I'm trying to be in this thing for 50 years, so my goal is to survive. And the reason why I say that is my ideology is very fluid. I have to be able to adapt to market conditions as they change. Because if I want to be a relevant, you know, person in the world in 50 years from now, um, first rule of businesses don't go out of business. Second rule of businesses don't forget rule number one, you know, um, so in that context, I think it's a very practical thing that we just have to deal with China and make sure that they do not usurp America's, uh, standing in the world as the most important country of the world. Just for me, it's ideological. I just don't want a communist country. I don't care about that. That is, torturing their citizens as the number one country in the world is really dangerous. I have a real issue with this. Like I don't think you have the right to judge. Just like California's can't judge. Texans and Texans

can't judge Floridians Oh no, that you're wrong. You absolutely should judge people who are torturing people and not allowing people have freedom of speech. Yeah, you should judge them. Actually, actually, human rights violations. I think you should judge people e. I think that we there's there's a lot of that stuff in America that you stay silent on. No, that's not true. I am absolutely for cannabis. Anybody was arrested for cannabis violations and low level drug things. I think they should be let out of free, out of jail, just like uh, J B. Pritzker did in Chicago. I mean, and I think the death penalty should be repealed, too, because we don't apply it properly. Those were the number one and two things probably United States that go against the human rights Declaration of Human Rights. And I'm actually very pro fixing those things. I was totally against water boarding, and I think that was the worst moment in modern American history. I honestly, I honestly think that, like China is going to be do China, you know, India is gonna be India. And instead of getting caught up in our own ideology, um, you should change it in your own country and then make sure that the other country doesn't

win well. And that's my point is, do do you believe engagement with China leads them towards democracy and better human rights conditions for their citizens or not? And I think the fool's errand that is an absolutely it works for East Berlin. And and it did work and saving Europe from the Nazis about the boundary conditions are entirely different. And China has proven that it works. Europeans were genetically bred to be lazy oligarchs. They just needed Okay, everybody, I think we just got kicked out of the iTunes store. Saks IPU China Hawk Dove Engagement, Isolation. Where do you stand? You heard Chama se his position. Where do you stand. Yeah, decoupling from China is gonna be a bipartisan issue. Now, um, I think both candidates now will be Well, Trump is gonna is gonna run blaming China for what happened. And I don't think why is gonna be defending China? Um, in fact, they're gonna try and packing with the whole Beijing Biden label

, and he's probably need to try and out Trump Trump on China. So decoupling is gonna happen. Um, it doesn't really make sense for us to be dependent on China for our antibiotics, for our medicines, for our PPE for you know, any of these, um, you know, I mean, any of these products that are important for national survival Um, I think all that stuff is going to come back home. Um, I think, you know, trading with them for other things might be toys, apparel. Things had to start fundamentally strategic the same way. I think that can continue. But, you know, the thing about trade is that creates interdependence. And I don't think that, uh, this country's gonna wanna be dependent on China for anything strategic anymore. Two questions for you, David. What is China's liability, if any at this point, with this pandemic. Uh, obviously, if they, you know, didn't they withheld information or silence? Whistleblowers? That's Ah, whole different level. And then tick

tock should be allowed to talk in this country. Uh, should we If we're not allowed to have Facebook or Twitter in China, take those questions either or do you want Well, the on liability. I mean, I think, yeah, their liability is huge. E mean, there's still a bunch of questions we gotta answer around where exactly the virus came from. Um, but the really fateful decision, but I think China made is when they shut down travel to Wuhan to and from Wuhan, Uh, you know, with respect to other parts of China. But they let people from Wuhan just kind of, you know, leave to go all over the world. And so, you know, they weren't letting people from Wuhan go to other parts of China, but they were able to come to the U. S. And so I think they do have a huge liability. But are we gonna hold them to it? No, I mean, as a practical matter. Um, you know, we're not gonna you

know it would be Would be a mistake toe to try and change the principal sovereign immunity and in the courts. But I think in terms of popular opinion, they do have, um there are other ways, toe. There are other ways to quote unquote punished. Um, like, I mean and the U. S is already doing it. So you know, for example, three us is limiting and constraining Huawei's ability. Get access to five G and so you know, it really forces china toe either by European and American equipment, which is essentially to say that you know, the five eyes will be able to basically spy into China. Um, or they have to basically, you know, storm into Taiwan and take over TSMC. I mean, so there are There are all these other gambits and strategies that one could take without getting ideology ideologically caught up in, you know, Chinese human rights. Because they're not going to change. Yeah. I mean, look, all wealth comes from trade, you know, whether it's at the level of individuals or nations, wealth comes from trade. And so it be silly for us to say that we're just never gonna have trade

with China, But I think that. You know, trade also creates interdependence. And so we're not gonna I don't think continue to engage, to depend on them for things that I'd alter our national survival. And so you know that that's gonna be the change. And the other thing is, you know, we're going to demand that the trade b'more Reciprocal. Take the Ticktock example. Well, you know, what probably gonna happen is that the ticktock will probably caught up in some larger negotiation and, you know, is a quid pro quo. We'll test against assault cars in China, and tic tac is to operate in the U. S. Maybe, um, but, you know, I I don't think tick tock. It sort of falls into the, you know, necessary for national survival categories. So it really falls into the reciprocity. Um, you know, principle and the question, I guess, will be Are we getting enough in return to allow them to operate here? And I think that's the way that all this commerce is gonna is gonna start working. And and that's the thing. At least weaken like confront our hypocrisy

. So, Jason, I don't disagree with you about how you know, gross, The human rights record is, I just think it's a joke that we all sort of like cry foul like It's like the biggest thing in the world when we can't even clean up our own backyard. And then meanwhile, we continue to trade with them. That's just utterly, utterly yeah, so that's why I think we have to continue to work on cleaning our backyard while continuing to a greater backyard. Meanwhile, win the game against China, and winning the game is not basically pushing for human rights reforms. It's making sure. As David said, we have a better trade balance and make and making sure that, like you know, that the critical parts of the supply chain and infrastructure that America needs for national security isn't dependent on a third party who have completely different incentives than we do well. And then there's also like soft things like, Why is the you know, why are we taking American movies and changing the ends in order to have them sold in China like they're literally corrupting our art and that incremental dollar that Hollywood's getting or whichever, you know, person

trading with China is getting? I think it's not worth giving up what makes America unique and a leader in the world. Freeburg, you have any thoughts on China? There's about 112 million people in China that work in factories. Factories in China are purpose built, so they're built to make a thing, and then they gotta get retooled. If you wanna make another thing, you take those two facts very hard to kind of replace China as a source of production. For a lot of what we consume in this country, that's the reality. So there's two ways you could go and then there's two kind of necessities and you end up with the matrix of like two by two. You could decouple from China and basically recreate that same production system here in the United States, and that just wouldn't fucking be possible. Like we don't have enough people to work. We don't have the ability to do that. The cost of everything would go up by five X. We could invent new systems of production, which we have the ability to three D printing, bio manufacturing all these other kind of really interesting

ways of making stuff that could replace the old factories that are run in China. Um, similar to kind of what may be a lot has tried to do with his automated, you know, factory with Tesla. And so, through automation through three D printing through bio manufacturing, you can kind of change the methods of doing this stuff. If we could do that, then we could decouple from China. So the reality is like, I don't know, like how we continue toe consume things at the you know, it's a percentage of wallet share for that come from China without rebuilding how you make stuff. Uh, no. But that's the whole point, By the way, I think the reason why that's valuable is that that's the best way for us to actually get back to an inflationary cycle is well, so I completely agree with you. It is incredibly inefficient. It'll be incredibly costly. But that's where I think you shift the balance of power so that instead of all the power sitting on the side of Capitol, you shifted to the side of labor labor demands for wages and then all of a sudden, Costco up, input costs go up, prices go up, inflation exists, and that fixes

a lot of our debt problems. It fixes are deflationary supercycle. It fixes a lot of things. And so? So if things got more expensive, it would be good for very good. Yeah, even. But even look even with maximal like look, that replaced 112 million workers in China with some number of Americans. Um, you know, I'm not sure you could make all the stuff you need to make here. Yeah, I mean, this other countries too. I mean, I think people are moving fact Japanese air moving factories to Taiwan and Vietnam. Yeah, but if we create new methods of production which were uniquely positioned to dio we can completely reinvent the wheel in a lot of industries. And I actually produce for the world right now. You know, China exports physical goods, the U. S. Exports, virtual goods. And if we want to get into the business of making physical goods, we have to just do it 10 x better. We have the ability to do that. We just got to get the fucking will. So if I were to take $3 trillion of federal money and you know Treasury bonds and hope that they don't turn into junk bonds. I would basically turn that money in tow, reinventing

the systems of, like, how do we make stuff using these new technologies of the U. S is uniquely positioned to capitalize on. And, you know, I love this. You could make a could make the same thing that 100 Chinese workers makes. There you go. I love it. That's and I think that's where we got to it and our into this Freeburg you win, you got the best. And then you have the hottest take in the whole group is if we are going to bring back manufacturing. Let's leapfrog. Let's just go. Let's just you don't have toe, keep letting them make, you know, socks or iPhones. But, you know, let's make the next automated factories in the three D printing factories here and buy a manufacturer. Anybody? Anybody have anything they need to promote or plug at the end of the podcast? Anything they're working on that people should know about? No, But I love you guys. I fucking miss you. I wanna kiss all of you on the mouth. Wow. Just exactly what I was thinking too much. I was about so back at you, I've been I've been locked down for three months. I've lost my mind. I mean, this is May 12 for me, and I think we all got to go to Mexico and see sacks for a

friend. Had some friends come down and we play golf. And no one wore masks within our little circle and nobody got sick. And, you know, um and you're all been tested. We have been tested, but we haven't. We don't have any symptoms. I got tested twice negative both times. And it was a very weird thing because I'm think I'm free Bird. Correct me. If I'm wrong, I would should be rooting that I had it. And it didn't do anything to me, right? Totally. By the way, let me just say one more thing. That's a really interesting finding. Um, this paper came out a few days ago that shows that 40 to 60% of the population that has never been exposed to start coronavirus to the current coronavirus already have activated T cells to the virus. And the reason is that they've had other coronaviruses through a common cold, and they've developed this immune response. Eso This may explain why a large percentage of people are just so asymptomatic and totally fine. It's a pretty astounding finding, Um, and so you could get checked for those other antibodies or

, you know, these these activated T cells and know if you're in a good position to kind of ward off the coronavirus. And that's another thing. We should probably do that 60% of people that already have this, by the way, that won't stop the spreading that that person will still get infected and spread. But there, you know, immune responses such that they'll shut the thing down pretty quickly. So would you call this like some parallel or shadow herd immunity or individual immunity? It's individual immunity, and its related thio just cross reactivity with other coronaviruses. And so we've already developed immune response to other coronaviruses that gives us seem seemingly a pretty good response to this coronavirus for, you know, more than happened, David. Population on a percentage basis. How, um how much do we know about this virus? Just as we wrap up here. If you had to state a percentage of like in two years, we're gonna know 100% or 90% about the virus, Whatever it is, what do we know now? We know everything about the virus itself were very like

like with any virus. We know very little about how it effects a specific human based on their genotype meaning based on your health and your your genes. Here's what this virus is gonna do to your body. And we're not going to know that in two years. And we're not going to know that. We don't know that for most viruses for humans today, the matching of Gina type of Gina type of viral. But if we understand X amount about the HIV virus or Ebola, what do we know now? If you, I mean, maybe Ebola would be the best one, like we have pretty good knowledge of that after X number of years. What do we know now? On a percentage basis of coronavirus, we had to guess way know everything about the virus itself, like 100% okay about this. Yeah, the human response to the virus and why it's called these weird symptoms with different people and so on. Yeah, I'd say we're probably I don't know, 40%. 30% kind of mapped the outcome, but we haven't mapped the progress to the outcome in the human body. All right, listen. Great job to meth. Great job, David Sacks. Great job, David Freedberg If you want to subscribe to the podcast type in all in with Yarmuth

. Andi e Love you guys Besties Alright, shuffle up and deal. Can't wait to see that new table and get back. Get back to work. Let's get back to where you goddamn masks people Wear a mask, Wear a mask. Okay, Be safe.

E3: Modern Cold War between US & China, economic recovery, potential mass migration out of San Francisco, pandemic politicization & more with David Sacks & David Friedberg
E3: Modern Cold War between US & China, economic recovery, potential mass migration out of San Francisco, pandemic politicization & more with David Sacks & David Friedberg
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