no welcome to anecdotally speaking a podcast to help you build your business story repertoire. Hi, everyone. I'm Shawn Callahan and everybody on Mark Shank. Well, we have I'm very excited. Today we got I guess I'm just dying toe have a chat with It's the chairman and co founder of this train turntable company. His name is Paul Chapman. He's also the chairman off the Bendigo Innovation Inventors Festival. And in fact, that's sort of how I met Paul. I gave a talk on innovation and we actually met in a couple of meetings before that. And, uh, and it's been It's been great. Thio get to know. So welcome. Welcome, Paul to our little podcast. And he's showing and thanks, my architect. You a real delight to be here. I'm looking forward to it. Fantastic. Fantastic. Now, one of the things I love our listeners to sort of know a little bit about is

how you got started. Because you, of course, you start Life is a publican, you know, and like, head out of the booth. You know what I mean? You know, the career is, you know, working in pubs and restaurants and things like that How did you move from there to running a company? And it's a global success. This company, the Australian Turntable Company. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Oh, yeah. The public and venture didn't come from from start and all that was in the genes. Mark, I could tell you e not Mom and Dad didn't drink. They boarded, but it's under daughter did see. So, um um, wait, did he use things? Grew up, Let's kill nearly. And I got married very young, and, uh uh, I had started a programming a world mental institution, technology studying zoology. But we decided with let that be and get on with living alive and started

a family and got into working had been around pubs and part time start part of that when I seem to find myself in country pubs doing some bar work about managing work and then landed in Melbourne in a in a very big pop is a department manager. So I felt full of myself when I got that wrong. But to tell you the truth, I was Is this a pub we with No, Paul. Uh, yeah, it's probably a broad meadows uh, all right. And it was It was It was an induction into a new life. Lady Yeo. Wow, that Z Yeah, that's Ah, that's Ah, pretty rough place. Well, at the time it was, it was new to make. It was different, but in front of you have, it's probably I I really recognized for the first time the value of storytelling because, um, broadly, the pub Sunday and I was in

Barry's road and really was patronized mostly by the Ford Motor Company on my role at the time was to look at the executives mostly around lunchtime and evenings. Um, And to make sure that that rejoin I remember clearly the number of times uh, Ellen Muffin would come in and he'd be talking to guests around the table. And those, Yeah, sort of maitre doing more than anything else, but a lot often invited to the table and just a cycle I never checked. Uh, Ellenwood Heywood had them transfixed with these stories of motor car racing because I'd have executives from all around the world. Oh, yeah. I love that absolutely great great Australian racing car drivers. E. That's right. Then I go out to the bar and see some people they will have mostly the painters and Dockers leads on our, uh, different kettle of fish. Good blacks. And

remember, clearly Lionel was around at the time, Lionel Rose. And, uh, so they had this really mixture of people coming and going in the pub. Anyway, it lasted for a while, and I enjoyed it. But to tell the truth, I was playing a bit of footy and pretty good food at the time. And somebody from Bendigo invited me up to play footy in Bendigo, actually, but we just decided, Well, we didn't really have an occupation to go through, so we did some laboring and they need thio grief tiling and then blending. Uh, I was driving down the street one day and I was looking at this house burning up then and then he and I had just bought their first time for $25,000. Yeah, back then E was looking to some materials to renovate it, and I was driving down the street, saw this black bulldozing a period Victorian style home Victorian period home. And

I thought, Why you're doing that, mate? I could do some of those things. So I went to the council and said to the cancer, What's it take to be a demolition contract? And I said I was processed, so I said, No. Next time you got a job coming up with because it was for the council. Now we're doing most of demolishing. Um, give me a ring, William. Which I did and I tended on the next job, and I put a Prasetyo zero. I told him I'd do it for nothing, because they tell me, lowers Price would win on went it went in and dismantle the building from the roof down every night. I'll at every breakdown, brick by brick took part. Every every component took what I one of my own place and solve the rest in three years raise enough money to buy the pub. All right, that's that, right? Well, that's that was very, uh, entrepreneurial of you. Paul and, uh, went Yeah, and it was a need. People people like myself. We're looking for stuff. We

actually it felt good because we weren't demolishing. We're recycling on. That was that was a great team. So we saw the pub. After a few years, we saw the pub we need to bend together come back into because of published out of 10 at at the Bush population, 200 people. And it was a wonderful, wonderful time came into Bendigo, had a couple little food shops go. One went really well. One was a disaster, but we didn't hang around that shut the doors and, uh, about the same time I visited my like dad, Dad. Time, of course, and that there's a lot of the time and Heyburn an engineer in his life. I went to enemy. He only had one. I lost one in the war and he was reversing out of his driveway trying to reverse every driveway. The 85 year old, well, he was going all over the joint and he couldn't do it. I said, Oh, okay. He said, No, he said, What I should do is build myself a turntable. I said, What's that? The least interested

person in engineering when I was in when they were young was made. I regret it. Don't you worry. I regret not listening to something that the good stories he had anyway, I said, Let's do it. I had a few dollars in your pocket because they just sell the public land. Behold, that was it. That was your first turntable? Well, I thought to myself, that can't be very hard. Hey, Tracy, slide on a lot of great here, it z it was your still building turntables. But, I mean, some of the turntables you're doing now, Like, you know, in New York, you're putting restaurants up on towers on turntables. I mean it. Zafar cry from a turntable from your father's, you know, driveway. Right? Well, how that happened, uh, tell us was I had to recognize where in the hell could I do something with this? And funny enough, some thought came into my head. I've seen on television about motor shows, so I went approach forward. Only company said, Listen, I'm about to start

making some turned towers. There's anything you like, And I said it was Look, we're desperate for a good product. The stuff we've got now is antiquated is poorly. Services breaks down. We'll take anything on they placed in order. My first order for seven car rentals. No, that will do it. That's great. So we got into it and we hired those turntables to their motor show circuit for 15 years. I then picked up BMW Holding and the whole rest of them on That was a good little business. And so was that three connections that the broader pub, you know, with Alan Moffett? Yep, that's exactly how it happened. You know, on we fell into that and at the time when early on was having them made by someone else. But it worked out in a couple of years to doing that. We realized we had toe bring that manufacturing that manning up. It wasn't until about 332 years after that, we actually decided to make them ourselves. Uh, I I had a couple of sons have a crack at it with me

. They've been around the world when they're kids. Did leaves, uh, high school. None of them went onto uni. They weren't that interested in when they all turned a doing A different times, We said, Here's a backpack again. We'll see in 12 months time on. They all went, different parts of the world come back and we're ready for a bit of work on their travel. For them has been an invaluable experienced for us now because those three sons or work in the business, in fact manage the business and the fact that they've all traveled in different countries. But in a blessed thio do business overseas. Yeah. So important, isn't it? Yeah, that's fantastic. Yes, just on. Sorry about, uh from there From that when we're doing Moodie shows, people would come and ask is can you do this? Can you do that? And all of a sudden, we there were just We're just following up on requests and well, we hold it ended up in things like you're talking about now, and it's a very

, very big projects with with the quality camp. Have there been any moments where where it went wrong? Oh, uh, Mark 1000 top way. Weren't engineers, mind you? We told all their customers right to start. You know, we're pretty new to this, but we get it right. But whenever anything did go wrong, we never shied away from it. We took a hit and we sorted it out. Now, this is a pretty innocuous sort of product. We might, but like every other product, you say anywhere on my analogies in door handles. You don't take any notice, a door handle, state just count happening a door and let you have a look into what makes up a door handle and the engineering and the design on the mechanics around that it's quite spectacular, and we were no different. So what? We learned what I learned very early on. In

fact, I'll tell you how to be educated that after doing the motor shows for 9, 15 years, you know, I hardly made a change to those products. Hardly might have changed. Keep them clean just each year. Go back and get a number of motor shows because it be 20 car 20 car manufacturers wanting us. So we go out and we might put 13 car turned over on the motor show five times a year. That was a good little income for us with higher. They see that anyway. Yeah. Ah, I didn't I didn't make many changes, you know, and then land behind in 1999 on opposition. We had no opposition. A bloke in the same game it was providing rigging and lighting and other, uh, other things to make up a motor show. Decided he he'd offer some continentals he hard one of theirs? Little did we know we copied it

, Had a few good improvements and went to a low motor car companies and said, Listen, also our turn time limit. If I get if I get all the other kids and within one week we lost our next 12 months. Oh, really? Yeah. And you know what that was? That was a kick in the guts that I needed absolute smack in the in the jobs. Andi, I looked in the mirror and said, That is your fault, Chapman, you haven't changed. You haven't improved. You haven't without leaving now in the word at the time, you have not innovated. Yeah, right. Bang. And you just lost it. So I had two options. We could sit down and cry about it, run away, or we could face up to it, which we need that za nice. It's a nice segue, Thio, The one of the topics that we've been exploring in our corporate storytelling article

that this Siri's is really all about is all the different ways you can use storytelling. One of them, of course, is to support innovation. Um, but when when you hit that point when you went. Oh my God. We haven't been innovating. I mean, how did then How did you go about building that in then? You know the innovation. What was some of the things that you ended up putting into place to ensure that you had that improvement? Well, the first thing we knew Waas we had Thio decide whether we were going to stay in that business, which means we had to try and recovery at work. Or we were looking at other opportunities to mind you. Those opportunities been coming to us. But we hadn't put that much campus to send them opportunities. When I said earlier, people coming to us asking us to do different things. So what we did we actually we actually did some research, Justo, where these things could could they employed? Because in a by this stage, we're thinking only motive shows we're doing this around the world, by the way. Yeah, Anyway

, we said no. We think this could be done better, but if we're going to do it better, the first thing we had to do was to get ourselves better, not the product. We had to get ourselves better and I was interested, looked and I thought I did some homework and I thought, you know, the whole management of this company There was no direction. There was no goals. It was just going year to year. There are no strategy, no planes. So we sat down and we said, I tell you boys, we're going to do this Probably said that the three boys it's on, Let's have a crack at it on we sit there at. And if that wasn't a watershed moment, the next one and it waas the next one. Waas because it took us about three years to go on, learn how to do business properly put all of the D C place. Uh, and one of those she's was what we call Q I accreditation quality assurance accreditation on. We were very early

into that from a regional perspective, but we went and got ourselves accredited, which gave us the basics a really good governance and business, uh, practice on. We applied them on then that took us to another level that actually took us into getting work from other areas. I was always a little bit skeptical of the quality assurance movement actually, Paul, because I so bumped into it when I was, um, in camera number of years ago. And it was being taken on by some of the government departments, and it seemed to me that it was just a checklist ticking exercise s so that they could check off all the lessons. Say, you know where 9000 and one ISOS approved quality assurance or whatever it was back then. I mean, how do you make sure that that sort of stuff doesn't happen? I mean, I would imagine it. There's a lot of

, I don't know, incentive for toe occur that way. Right? Well, I did recognize that if we did do this, probably we would possibly be in line for government work. And I was right on the money, right on the money, But more so what we need to do And this is this is the basis of our our business ethics and practice. We needed to convince companies that one of the users who were much better companies in us and often bigger companies in us that that they could believe and trust in us that we would do things and get things right. Q. R, although very, very much around documentation has behind list its processes and procedures that you need to follow to check that things. All right on, when you apply that into manufacturing, it means you've got to check things all the way. And that means you've got to get people who are prepared to follow those procedures and pregnancy. So you found we found ourselves becoming very process driven

. But for us not burning engineers, it was a good thing. We were very strong on our communication, very strong in in doing ourselves to our customers and looking after them. But we needed to be better than that on Make sure that what we were delivering was delivered, probably. And and there's an old saying in in business, you probably know off where they say, Um ah brand is a promise, but a great brand is a promise kept, and that's that's what we decided. Well, hang, hang out, head on on If I could take it one step further, that the third and most important watershed moment in our business career now. And the evolution of this company has bean. I ran about 2000

and 3 2000 and 9 2003 about 2010, Um, when we had been growing and doing some tribute stuff around the world. But there was just something missing, Not always had an interest and been watching very attentively to what was happening in New Zealand at the years. Always loved New Zealand E. I thought I was doing some terrific stuff, you know? And I had a thing around. Uh uh, What's really trying to take a textiles and fabric and what they're doing with their wall and things like that They design. I know thes blacks are some of the best designers in the world because, uh, that was just kicking godly front on land behind the government Put a program out there around what they called designed to business where you had the opportunity. You have to pay a bit of money and they helped fund it. I would they

would come and help teach you how to bring a that had to bring the principles of good design into your business on one of the the essence of that is how do you align all your values of vision? Your brand your customer promise, uh, customer cause on what you're promising, your customers head you alone, all those things together. And the most important element of all that is understanding your purpose. Why are you doing what you're doing? Okay. You good? I'm glad to hear you say that because you become a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. You bikes were right on the money and you, don't we? What we learned out of it. We learned that we weren't making 10 hours at all. That wasn't what we're selling. Turn towers because we were devolved ourselves into other industries. Particular end driveway turn terms and loading docks and things like that. We were in the business of selling

space because with a turntable by spinning a car ran on a turntable or attract it takes 50% less area to do that than by doing don't than doing it by conventional means. If you have tow, reverse your cage, your driveway, you gotta drive it out there and you gotta back onto the road and do so. Imagine that truck, you know, out in the car park of a loading dock that takes a lot of area. Typically, it's about 400 square meters put on a turn in Taiwan's 200 agreements for a semi trial. So what we did is we, said Thio. We realized that was the sustainability in our business way. Saw were selling turntables, their business. We didn't know when it on how long a lot. But when we're selling space, right, we're on the money. And that just opened up the world first and opened up industries left, right and center. And that is the most pivotal moment in their business. I reckon there's something else you're selling Thio

, Paul and American. You're selling safety, right? Because you know, if people are back and back and forwards, I mean, that's gotta be, um, or dangerous space than one way. It's controlled on a turntable, for example. Yeah, that's right. The cancers have recognized that in cancer. Yeah, they don't let any ill development get people backing out on the busy roads on so forth. So that's that's taking us to another level, and rightly so. But we've embraced it and and really, uh, um committed ourselves passionately to doing this. Probably. Yeah, right. Fantastic. Now, yeah. Mark's got a question e I speak too quickly. And if I don't If I don't give lots of long pauses. I'm always cutting mark office on this time you go. That was a demonstration of a long pause. OK

, eso building moving to rotating, uh, rotating restaurants on top of buildings and things like that. How did that happen? What was Because that, to me, is a long way from your dad's driveway. So Well, you know what? My dad had a part in that he didn't know about, but he would be very proud in Alabama. He didn't know we did. The world's largest revolving restaurant for the Iranian government in Iran, in Tehran when other governments didn't want us to go there and do it politic because of political reasons, it and the fact that my dad was well read And, of course, you know, went through the Depression and know that. So you imagine the i d. Was? What in the hell? On dates dating 20 years old? I shouldn't have. Without doubt, I can't remember. Um, yeah, he was old. He was 94 when he died. So he was born in 1907

. Or you think it was so He had a great story himself, but as kids. He would sit down and we ran too far. And he had a great year after this. And and poetry, I need to tell the stories. Well, let me tell you 1000 years ago, when one of purges, greatest scholars, mathematicians and parts sit down and write Cem first one day. Hey wouldn't have known that the 1000 years later, his words catapulted a small engineering business into the stratosphere. You know, I had Evan you're doing You're very good storyteller. Well, this'd dinky Di and, uh, told this

story a number of times. I hope any of your listeners haven't because Heather, we discover talented publicly, but it is It is true. We were asked to, uh, tender on the world's largest redevelopment restaurant, the Iranian government following it. Expo. We did in Dubai, where the government representatives came on the air stand and visitors and answers to have a look of doing this job. And it was a magnificent job. And and since 1999 when we had the first pick up one of the things I said that the boys waas we're gonna do a revolving restaurant e guarantee e anyway, practice and we uh, looked at the project and we propose something to them. And, uh, and to cut a long story short, we eventually

were awarded the project against the Chinese Germans Americans warning that I didn't like the Americans. The president of the time with Mr Esmond. Energy on him. And George Bush didn't particularly like each other. So the Americans will kept the other way. So there was a British, the British. Uh, Dad, Germans and the Chinese all tended. The British weren't going to get a look in either. And I on where the smallest country by far. Okay, Onda, We were eventually asked to g o and present ourselves to the Minister for, uh, works in Tyronne. A check by name Mr Mia Siddiqui and me. It was a great big bug. I'm 6 ft three. He was 6 ft six Big dark eyes of the Iranians. Don't be cross back on a big black

or whatever. And we went over and we presented to, uh this committee of him his, uh, his government cohorts, project managers. The architect Mr Razor have PC finance people and so forth on. I've never done a deal in Iran every before and we've been advised not to. But we said no. We're gonna have a crack at this. And we went over. But to get Thio join them, they needed to organize an intermediary. And I did this on They organized a check by name. And Mr Sharpton. Sure. Er a beautiful man. London educated, Iranian born, London educated lawyer who worked in the construction industry in Abadan. And I'd never met Shane. We went thio way went thio Dubai an epidural first amid chain on. He was trying to be our translator. And

now and our intermediary and doing, if anything, transpired. So we went there and we knew when we went there, we were a chance and they were going to make a decision whilst we were They interviewed the other companies and way over the last three years. Yeah, and I can remember clearly. In fact, one of my favorite pictures is my son Ben and I was sitting under the photographs of the Ayatollah on the press. I told her many I think his name is moment of me. Anyway, we're in this room with about a dozen people from the Iranian government always paper mentioned and we're doing. We're going through the process of negotiation and Cheyenne and warned us we'd already put out proposal and shiny morning says, Listen, uh, they're pretty tough guy shot to stage lights, and, uh, you don't know you left, and you know you'll have

toe earn it if you get it. I said, no way. We're up for that. And we'd like to quote up a little just knowing that we weren't gonna win the win The battle again, Uh, Blair in this room. And it came to pass that we've been for all the technical preliminaries, the commercial technical composers through, uh, some interpretation from Shaheen. Because half of the audience half of the men in the room could speak English and half couldn't. Certainly the architect could project manager according to Mr Chatwin. Now, Mr Maher Hammoud, Tahiti Tough little black I've ever met in business in me like anyway, about four for six, really? A good black guy on. And during the course of the conversation, Mr Dickie, this bike. Mr Dickey, he was the head of this department in the Iranian government and was eventually in line to be

become the mayor of Tehran and as I understand if you can become the mayor of Tehran, the next step is the president. Now, I'm not absolutely certain about that, but that's what I bring down. Anyway, he was high up Onda. We were getting on pretty well when he looked at May Ont. He said to May Mr Chap Irma I then threw, shot him. He asked the question How can I trust you? E wasn't really prepared for that has been looking, man, and I'm looking at him. And the first thing I said show him on being a very tense meeting After this point, Kent Kent formal was more like now explicable raising. But I said to him for the first thing I said, Oh, Mr Mr uh, Mr Siddiqui can trust me because I can't very flat, which is part of bank. Well, Cheyenne

translated on the whole room, burst into laughter on I said, What did I laugh about Him And he says, Well, just translated e trust you because you're squash can get wrote. Yes. Kash, Kanga Row. What? That did what that did Was it broke the ice? No, I didn't know it was going to do that because people were alive and it just just a things happen. And then within two minutes Siddiqui, correct me on he said through shiny. Thank you, Mr Chairman, for your proposal were, uh you are not the cheapest in this in this presentation in this, uh, tendering process. But he says, What do you know? A bad I right? And that I wasn't I wasn't ready for. And you know what happened? I said years

with logic. Absolute 270 jarring six conflict. That s E C. T. Is subtle alchemist within a thrice life's leading metal into gold transmute. You were quoting from your father where I was quoting from my dad and he had just quite he had quoted to May. And I remember this. I have never said those words ever before in my life. I promise you, Wow, way can't get the second word. And then I said Iranian part or something in the room. And then I said myself when you myself, when young would would eagerly frequent cried scholar and site to hear much argument about this and that, but came at the same door as in I went on the whole room said Still, when

the Arctic razor have fees, he stood up and he said, in Persian or Farsi is their language to Mr Siddiqui. He said, Mr Siddiqui, Mr Chapman has just quoted the Ruby eight of Omar Khyam on Sunday. He stood up so that he stood up, extended his hand to me, and he said, Mr Chapman, you had the contract way found that we were something like six times dearer than the Chinese. Is that God? And I sort of wanted to tell you that story because what it meant more than anything else. And we apply this in your business more than more than anything, you have to earn the trust of your of your capital on if you can earn that trust, you break down all those other hurdles and barriers a to the

same time with the same time. Paul. It's a little bit like, you know, the movie, uh, Slumdog Millionaire where you know, he doesn't know the questions, but he answers them all right because of these little experiences he has in his life, you know has no idea what the questions are, But then the questions asked, and bam, he's got the answer, right. And in some ways, you know, that was sort of similar. You know, you would have never have known that that was going to be the answer. You're going to give in one of those one of those presentations. I reckon Dad was looking. Don't be looking up while looking down Pretty. It would have been impressed wherever he was looking on. And, you know, you're making Slumdog gonna tell you. Uh uh, a couple of years later, we were asked to present something Thio the government in under back instead of Gujarat in India. And then I was and I was staying once again. We traveled together and

we were staying in the Crowne Plaza. And if you bring the India, you know what it's like. It's the most wonderful place. But this is in that heart of a city of about five million people. I think they have. And, uh, penny systems. Anyone dices. There's a slum right behind us. Let's see if we go in and have a look. We went down to the concierge, and I said we should Can we get permission to go through this slump? You know, we on the chips is you go through, my friend. Just take a bottle of water with you. Well, just don't drink anything. Order in this lamp. He said feel Freddie. More true. So we were raised casually dressed. Yeah. No, it's not. Yeah, cleaning up and went for a walk through this slump. It was everything you'd expect, but wonderful. We didn't see people crying and Helen that people were just living day to day and quite

living in their own circumstances and looked quite happily We were seeing kids go to school in the most pristine white tops on. Just wonderful to say, We're going through the straits if you want to call them it. And Bob, we could hear these kids giggling in life a little further heading way. Turn the corner. Here's a bunch of kids playing cricket with the, um, with high. My bet. I had a ball. Yes, the drum and drum up the other rain And I yelled at Ricky Ponting on one of these little buggers. Hate turned around. He's like that like a bunch of meerkats. These little kids, they all turned around heads up till 10 at the same time on one of them was smarter than this to say. Sachin Tendulkar? A response, isn't it? It was game on, you know, We played cricket with those kids for 25 minutes

. They built this and they did everything and we got us out and we're laughing on. I'd put that bottle of water had taken with me and opened on a on a drum alongside where we're plan. When I went and walked away, when I went walked away, it was thanked The kids in the o. A. I hadn't gone 5 m when there was a little kid came up to us from living Islam and came out told him his shirt and he says, Mr, here's your bottle of water. Uh, keep well for the kids that don't get you know what I'm saying? That it was another just a name it if you like just getting to know people and trust him not. And I was really in your story in your book, Mark, uh, Sean about the chapter did something very similar. Yeah. E could rely tonight. It was good there. It's already take up all the time there. No, no, no. It was wonderful. And you know it just shows you the I

mean, there's a couple of things. You know, we talk a lot in our program here about some of the elements of storytelling. There's some There's some elements I wanted to just draw out. I love marks views on this to, um, for example, Uh, one of the things you could be easily drawn into incorrectly in a story is to try to say too quickly, right? Yeah, and not, uh, enjoy the pauses, right? And I think one of the things you did so well in your story telling you the pauses, but also what I love is all those little snippets of the you remember everyone's name, which is always amazing feat with the story, but also just those little character descriptions of each person and the only say a couple of things. But it's enough for you to sort of go. I've got a bit of an in an insight into what that person is like there. There's things that just make a story a little bit more interesting. Anything jump out for you, Mark. So for me, there was

a Siris of big stories that you told there. But I have like I've been just been making notes. There is. I don't know that there's maybe 10 little snippets of things that I'm just going. All that is gold. Um, you know, just a little stories in between the things that are well, firstly, the innovation in 1999 You know, the guy borrows your stuff and hires that. Sorry on. And so you know the lesson about innovation? Um, the moment of connection that came, uh, in that in that room in in Tehran. It was Tehran, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful place around the safest type his ass is Yeah. My wife and I visit a number of times. Just were wonderful. Looked after wonderfully e. I guess it's the imagery that I thought was fantastic. You know, I could see the little kid tagging on your shirt and handing you that bottle. Yeah

, that's good. I think I think the hospitality industry helped their lot. Fellas. Yeah, everybody's got a story. Uh, and you most certainly when you're a public and you need to listen and you learn to listen, um, and you learn to listen for one very good reason we apply this in our workers well, and that is this. You want the person who comes into your business. He's coming into your business to give you money. He's here to give you money. He wants a little bit of services. He's gonna leave again on we take the view. Did you want that person to leave? Happier than when they walk in? Just that little bit happier. And if we do that in all our businesses, then on our lives works. And I think that z something that you can say, Okay, that was good. Doesn't always happen. Some people, it's difficult toe make heaven, but yeah, yeah, and like

for any manager out there, I was Think when you've had a conversation with somebody, do they walk away from that conversation? Mawr engaged than they did before all this engaged when they walked in. So it's like every every moment it's an opportunity to build engagement or two. Yeah, I wrote it. Yes, and again, on your your book, I was on your website. I was reading where the two CEOs, one you see on the form and former CEO had different approaches. Sean, that's right on the money. I mean, you can see people's eyes glaze over. When? When what you call him. Pay that point to give up. Hey, tell me, does your did his sons also shares stories as a natural way of communicating? Yeah, they're very good at it. And they bring. They bring a great deal of human toward good. Good in the region is we've gotta laugh. We've gotta laugh because we have botched

a lot of things up in that time, you know, and way saying, Well, there you go. Get on, get on with a same time. We know, uh, it's been for us. The strength in this business for May fellas, is being that we had a family. This is three stuns and their their wives and their families. Allstate all do all committed. All get on. Well, we see each other weekends, believe it or not, looking at the kids and the kids will get on well and in particular, the wives get on Well said that mawr than anything else for this business has been its strength. I don't know if we would have achieved what and some great things we have achieved, and it's only still at the start price. Um uh, if that hadn't been there. So that whole purpose sense of direction, understanding the Gauls, what we all have their today just makes that a little bit

. And my oldest son now, as many as you drink that and I'm assigned doing clearly, I said many. It's a lot easier for patriarch to be the managing director than in these For a sibling, you're gonna have a tough a gig that managing, directing denied it because, you know, it's a matter of their respectful, And I can I can have a have a crack at care if they want. Oh, the times we all know bringing kids up. But, um hey, standing an extraordinary out there and that would be the biggest strength in this in this little enterprise. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I can drink the string. That's a good story. Well, we probably should wrap it up there. It's, uh, time is ticking on a czar. Anything else we need toe cover off on Mark? It's a good place. Toe end up. Isn't it? A That was. I've got so many additions to my story back from this. Thank you so much. Paul has been just pleasure I just remember the second word of that. It was

the grape, That logic absolute to 70 degrees C grapes. Y e. That's that time of day, fellas. Yeah, well, thank you, Paul. It's It's been such a pleasure hanging out with you for the last year or so. So I just want to say to all of our listeners, Yeah, thanks again for listening into anecdotally speaking. And, of course, tune in next week for another episode off How to put your stories toe work. So bye for now, anecdotally speaking, was engineered by day steaks from author Toe audio Mhm.