welcome to ask Ally, the self publishing advice podcast from the Alliance of Independent Offers This week. It's our monthly self publishing fiction and nonfiction podcast with authors owner Ross and Sasha Black are fiction nonfiction Salon is brought to you by specialist sponsor Izzard Inc Publishing. Helping you navigate the publishing world while you stay in control of your work is Erdinc Publishing. Self publishing is no longer publishing by yourself. We would like to thank Desert for their support for this show. And here are your host for the self publishing fiction and nonfiction podcast Orna Ross on Sasha Black. Hello, everyone Hi and welcome to the Giants of independent authors. Self publishing podcast Self publishing a vice podcast. Today we're talking about fiction and nonfiction, and I am here with the wonderful Sasha Black Hi Sasha alone. So this show is, as

you regular listeners will know is sponsored by Desert Inc Onda. Their slogan is self publishing, where it doesn't feel like you're doing everything yourself. In other words, they will help you and hold your hand and bring you to the process. And that's very fitting because what we're talking about tonight is help on when toe hire help. How do you know when you need it on? But what kind of help do you need? Because I think is sometimes I think maybe knowing that you need it is one thing. But knowing the kind of help that you need is probably really going to be deep diving into here here this evening. So, Sasha, you're kind of in the middle of this, right? I am. So I have brought on. I mean, I had an accountant last. Yes, that was the very first sort of external person other than a designer and an editor who I worked with, This was somebody who I would have an ongoing relationship with. Um, but in the last month, I've had to bring on a Via as well. So I'm now working with I ve a

Andi. Yes, I like my whole business is going through a bit of an upgrade on bond. Yeah. So I have had to suck it up and ask for help, which I think, like, I think, for a lot of India authors, not all. There's probably two schools of India authors, but there's India authors who will willingly ask for help on. Do you know I wish I was them, But I'm a bit too much of a control freak. And I don't really like letting go of things. And, you know, being an Indian author, author fosters that you know it. Really? Because we have to do everything ourselves. We build everything from the scratch from the start by ourselves. So it is. It was really hard for me to both, like, admit that I needed help and then actually ask for help. So, yeah, like if there are people out there listening to this who are in that camp, I feel your pain. Uh huh. It's that's great, because really, I think coming to the point where you need help is actually something to be proud off. It actually means

there's things going on. There is activity happening. There are people who are, you know, your business is working, you're busy, you've got mawr work, baby done or more opportunities and you can you can reach out. So it is actually something probably thio to kind of feel good about what we're going to try and do, because this is actually a huge topic and kugel in 1000 different directions. So what we're going to do tonight, we're going to talk break down the different kinds of help that you might need as an indie author and wearing the three half it's that we have to wear. So I think we're all very conscious of ourselves as makers, people who make books first in the writing phase, which is a making phase, but also then in the producing of an actual book. So that's what we tend to think about our job, but actually there to equally important dimensions to the job on. Do we have spoken about this before? And no doubt, will again. And there's a whole Facebook group if any of you are interested. Facebook Group

Go Creative in Business, which uses thes three headings all the time to set set goals and set intentions and recognize accomplishments. But Number one is the maker. Number two is the manager. The person who looks after the process in your business so and your profits. So how you're doing things is in the hands off the off the manager and then the marketer, the marketeer, the person who get it's the sales. Who goes out there. No point in making a fabulous book and having wonderful processes that produce lots of books. If nobody knows about, um, on def, you don't actually succeed in getting money for them. So if you don't do that, you're simply not in business. So the market here is the person who kind of goes out there, and the way I think about it is the maker works in the business. The manager works on the business, and the market here grows the business on DSO. I will not do you like that e really like that? Say that again

, just just in case people mystics. I think that's a really, really good way of describing it. Okay, so the maker works in the business, making what needs to be made in order. It's old, the manager works on the business, and it actually kind of protects the maker and the market here so they could do their job by having clean processes that are actually profitable, as opposed to doing lots of things, but aren't on. Then the market here grows the business. It's their job to get out there and shout about it and tell people what's going on. So that people have the opportunity toe actually by. So yeah, and so we are going to break it down in that way. I think, as we look at the possible before we kind of dive into those three hats that people have to wear and what helped each of them might require. Is there anything else we want to say as a as a kind of an introduction? E don't think so. Let us leap right on in then. So I think when we're when we're thinking about help

, we possibly instantly think about people. But Tech aunt tools can be incredibly helpful also on, do you know? So we are going to include tech and tools here in terms off, thinking about about what we might need help with. So e, I was just gonna say And on that note, we recently had a self publishing advice conference, which was all about tools and tech. So if you are listening and watching and you are an ally member, then you could log into the Alliance of independent authors dot orc. But Dr Work, we are a non profit talking up to remember website on. You can navigate Thio advice conference and get all off the log in details. And if you're not a member, then you can purchase a six month or lifetime access pass by visiting the

It just type into Google Self publishing a bicycle prince and you will find all about it. And there are stacks of tools and amazing presentations and on speakers in the last conference, all about the tours and tech that can help you in your business. Yeah, it really was an eye opener, and I think you know, those of us who kind of do this all the time. We were surprised at how many tools we came across that we haven't heard off before. So yeah, good catch. And it's worth saying for those who are not ally members, that there will be a sale coming up around black Friday time. So keep it up. Keep an eye out for that. Okay, so let's talk about writing. Let's begin. Maybe with us, you know, the technology and the tooth. Do you have things that help you to write faster, right? Better eso I used scrivener. I think a lot of people probably use Griffin A, but I also I draft in scrivener on. Then I edit in word just because I'm when I draft

, I write all over the patient out of order. So scrivener helps because it has the functionality to separate scenes or chapters. So that helps me to draft. And then I chuck it into word. And then I also use software like pro writing aid to help dio an edit proof type, and it before I send it off. Thio an editor. What about you? Yes, I use I think everything you've mentioned so far. I've also investigated Plotter, which is really good novel plotting, software, plotting and planning. It just does that it doesn't do anything else and it doesn't really well and I think this is the development that we're seeing in the India author tools marketplace in the last couple of years Is thes very specific tools for very specific parts off the process. Um, dictionary. There's another great one which actually allows you to self edit a zoo. You go before you hand, you look over to a professional

editor of really guides the self editing process. Yeah, and that one focuses on, like a developmental story edit rather than pro writing aid, which focuses much more on the line work. So yeah, they actually both work together. Really? Really Well, that's very true. And in fact, one of thes sessions in self publishing advice conference that you were talking about is pro writing aid on fiction Eri together talking about how to use their two platforms together. So, uh, yeah, they are. They're really good tools. And then for writing other people who could help Do we have to sweat every word out? So you know, to beads and blood coming out of our foreheads, e. I mean, so it really depends whether, like where you are at on what your goals are. So of course, you could work with a co writer and a collaborator to co write something together on then you're You know, there are many different ways toe work, that process. But obviously

you're going to do less off the work, and it's going to be more of a collaboration. Then in the same vein, you have ghost writers as well who would write on your behalf usually with guidance, sometimes in the style of your voice, unless you it's sort of your first book and you you are not publishing necessarily in your own voice or they will. They will write, you know, they're very good at What's the word? Well, ghost writing so embodying whatever tone, whatever style, you know, whatever cadence you want them thio create for you and then critique partners or be to readers is probably another one. S o. I mean there more or less one and the same people will argue the toss over but the difference between them but typically and I see a critique partner is somebody who is a writer on DWI will look at your work, give you feedback on it before you. You will then do another edit based on their feedback on. Then it will go to

an editor and then be to readers, tend Thio be readers, but I don't know if that's just my definition or whether it's an accepted definition. But lots of people like to argue about those those two. I don't know if you I think that's a pretty good, pretty good breakdown off the two. And then you could get tools to kind of meet people because one of the tools again and South Pop com was beat beat books on. They actually provide a platform now because beater readers air so widely used in the community, they provide a platform for us actually managing that whole process off, getting your your book to be to readers and getting them back on time and making sure they title. But they should and, you know, managing the whole flow off. That s Oh, yes, a nice tool as well. So yeah, and I think when it comes comes to ghostwriting and things like that. You read, You need to think about you and your business and why you're doing it. I mean, for some, writer is the

idea of getting a gold structure is just like completely and not really. Why would I do that? I'm here because the whole thing I want to do is right for somebody else. It might be, You know, you actually, what you want to do, what's most important to is a business, and you can see I ain't going to get it off books written between now and whenever to have a business. So I need to get somebody else and kind of help that you said something very interesting before we came on the air, and I'm not sure if it refers only to writing or to all the different aspect. But you said that you feel nonfiction authors arm or likely to hire help Pond needed sooner or something like that, I think, Yeah, I think nonfiction authors are more likely to need help sooner purely because the tendency is for them to have multiple streams of income, which means the amount of admin in their businesses is probably 10 fold. Where people, you know, if you have a fiction author who's writing in four different genres, they're probably gonna need, you know, help

very quickly as well. But for I guess the what You would classes normal India Order who's writing in one genre compared to a non fiction author who's likely tohave some kind of business around their book, I think a nonfiction author will probably require help sooner. Yeah, just for all of those reasons, you know they have multiple streams. They often running a business is well, sometimes they're book is a business card rather than you know, being an author as their predominant field. So yeah, so complexity off business and ultimate AIDS and goals and these are the things that you you need to think about. So I think it's also worth saying that before you hire, have maybe make sure that you have simplified your business and that you're not carrying a lot of dead wood where you go off and you hire somebody who's going to help you to do things that ultimately won't be that profitable or that pleasurable and you know that you will get the benefit

from them. So you do need to be very clear before you hire, and it can be a great way of concentrating the mind, because when it comes to actually paying somebody to do something rather than doing it yourself, you may well find. Actually, it's not worth, but it's not worth it to me. And if it isn't worth it, get somebody else to do. Then why on earth are you doing it? I have just been through that so I can Yeah, I can 100% vouch for that. The minute I had toe hand over cash, I was like, Wait a minute, should I? E. Don't enjoy doing this, you know, on. But but But before you make decisions I think there's a couple of things you have to do. The first thing you have to do is assess. Is it a pain point for you, Andi? Is that why you want help? I needed help because I was in pain. I wasn't enjoying some of the things that I was doing, but they were making money, and therefore I couldn't not do them. Um, you need to assess. You need to look at some kind of data or

metric or statistics to show you whether or not the thing that you're asking somebody else to do is is having some kind off beneficial outcome. Is it bring you referrals or clicks? Is it making sales? Are you? Is it a social media scheduling and say, for example, um, one of the things that I was doing was tweeting out loads off block posts, you know, based on my podcast. But actually, when I looked at the statistics, I was getting a lot more affairs from Facebook and Pinterest than I was Twitter. So, actually, why bother doing it? You know, I'm not gonna pay anybody to do that on Twitter is one of the ones that takes the longest for me to format. So I've just stopped doing it because it's not having any impact s. Oh, yeah, yeah, I really definitely. Definitely. That's what happens. So very good. Okay, So when we move on and from writing into the publishing arena, I think this is where people do hire

help and hopefully dio arm or inclined Thio. I hope every I remember now realizes that we need an editor and toe hire somebody you know after the self editing process, to get professional editor as soon as you can, and the best one that you can afford. Designers for matters the's what you might call the production part of, you know, just making a great book. And Ally, of course, has a directory of approved services that you can look at and be sure that you are able to assemble the perfect, kind off team to push the book together. Because what we call itself publishing it doesn't mean that you do or can do absolutely every aspect of it yourself. And I think Sasha, even the most D i y and person, is going to find areas that are not their skill set on wasting time trying to do something that you're never going to be that good at really have to think about. You know how much time, how

much your time is worth? So, yeah, I think Let's move on and toothy processing the actual management stuff and jewels in a comment here, zooming in from Scotland Hi, Jules is talking about collaboration multi author platforms where you could get together. Thio do things, and I think, are you particularly talking about marketing? But I think perhaps also we can help each other when it comes to those things, like formatting design, Editorial. Other authors may be skilled editors, for example, or maybe skilled designers on you can perhaps get together into a collaborative group so that you can actually manage the full production of a book between you by spotting skills. If if you know, if money is just not not possible. The irony office businesses when you most need the money at the

beginning, when you most needed help at the beginning is when you have at least money. So you have to balance the needs out there in some way. Absolutely no. Yeah, I completely agree. So management than processing. Um, profits. Let's start with profits, shall we? Yes. I think the most obvious place you're going to need help is with your accounts. I know on obviously in each different country there will be different tax laws, different sets off requirements, and I, I and Al. I always advise that you seek out professional accountancy help when it comes to your books, if you are unsure. Um, but there are many different things. So once you've got your business or separate bank account set up for your income and your business, you will then need some kind off book keeping system. Once you get, you know, a couple of books or a few different

streams of income, it is much easier to do that, but keeping on a monthly basis than it is to leave it until the end of the year, which I did the first time. Andi, it saves you a very big headache. So there are lots of bookkeeping bits of software like zero. For example, sage. There's various different 10 which is spelled X e r O is my favorite. That's the one that I use and it's so intuitive. Eso I always recommend that And then, of course, you can have a bookkeeper. You can hire help. They could go in. You could give, like, account permissions for them to do your bookkeeping on your behalf. If that's something that you and don't want to spend your time doing on, then at year end, you You know, if you're not an accountant or you don't know how to do your books and you're probably going to need an accountant, which is, um, a separate your bookkeeper. Yeah, absolutely. And I will say that if I had to do my own bookkeeping, I would never have been able to do any of this because

I simply cannot do If I don't have those skills at any level, I'm just number blind. So, uh, at the beginning, I think as authors, we don't want to invest in our business, Generally speaking, and I think it is worth thinking about way upfront. What you do want to invest in and again, that idea of valuing your own time and how much time you know how much your time is worth, because you could be spending time doing things that you could easily, you know, used to bring in Mawr Income, which has a higher value, and it's scalable overtime on you might need to buy yourself a bit of time. At the beginning, you might actually need to take some sort of. I mean, I often compare us to somebody starting a restaurant or, you know, any. Almost any other business is going to have to invest some money upfront and, in some cases, a really sizable amount of money upfront on. But it could be very helpful at the beginning

. Thio to think about your so few authors do this. But in fact, the more authority you are and the more into writing you are, probably the less likely you are to think about it this way. But it is really helpful for you to take a step back. I think about your your production as a business on to think about. If I had to present that to a bank manager and get a loan based on this business, does it add up? Does it make sense? Ball striking businesses do Sorry over to you? No, no, I was just going Thio agree with you. That was actually the question somebody said to me, Do you actually know, You know, Do you know how much it's going to cost you to hire somebody per hour and do you know, roughly you know what you're ending per hour? I haven't actually done the math on it wasn't until I did the math that I was like, Uh, yeah, it's really not beneficial for me doing half of the things that I'm doing that I could pay somebody, you know, less than my hourly earning, essentially to do. So

, yeah, I think so many of us just assume we can't afford it because, you know, you don't always have to hire somebody in the same country as you. You can hire somebody in a different country where the cost of living is lower. You know, there are always ways and means of getting help on your budget. You just have to be clever on. Did you know spend a little bit of time looking or asking for for recommendations? Absolutely. And again, there is the Ally directory in the surgical database in the member zone. There are also really good market places where you can hire help. Read Z is obviously a fantastic place not just for editors. People tend to think of it for editors, lots of the other things that you might need in terms of production, particularly. And there's a work which I use when I want to hire somebody to do a discreet job. You know that isn't part of the team kind of ongoing. I use a work, but there's five er ous Well, you know, lots of these marketplaces where you can actually get the kind of help that we need That we tend to need

a very reasonable price. So is yeah. Do do think about doing that. So I think it's time to talk about the elephant in the room on. You know, I didn't mention this to you before we started, but for me, the whole elephant in the room for this conversation is about process. Because I think if you if you as indie authors are anything like me, you you just made stuff up. You went along on you created random processes that may not have been efficient. They may not have been the best way, but they worked for you and you didn't have time to make them fantastic. And so you got to the point where everything was a bit of a kerfuffle in a mess on at. But it works because, you know, knew how to do everything. The problem is, when you then bring on help, you have to be able to explain your process to somebody else. Andi, that's where you know the most important aspect off bringing on help is clarifying

your processes. And I have had to go through a whale off a time being ableto handover stuff. So if I talk about some off the things that maybe you can add a few things in, I had to create a file structure like a file naming structure, because I just stuff stuff in that folder. And then I stuffed other things in that folder over there and only me knew where. Anything waas, you know. So, yes, you need a very clear file, even a file naming structure, so that if whoever is working with you has to add files and they know how to label the name file so that you can then find them independently off each other, you need some kind off communication system. You need to work out how you are going to communicate with each other. Be it WhatsApp or messenger or slack or whatever Onda. Then you need like a storage. Yes, So I sort of talked about file structure. But you need a mutually what's the word where you can both access? Ah, story. So for example

, I have ah va helping with my podcast. Now on, we're putting all the files into Google Drive because both of us can access it. You also need to think about your passwords on protecting your passwords. So last past is something that I'm using on I put my passwords in and they have the ability to copy the password but without seeing the wording. So that's another mechanism. Got to think about like your security and those kinds of things on dime. Just trying to think you also need to be able to communicate instructions and step by step processes. So what I did because I just could not get it onto paper was I did a video and I walked through every step of the way through my, you know, scheduling a podcast and uploading and all of that stuff on. That's how I was able to communicate. And we've, you know, we've changed and edited and updated processes, and that's one of the things that I think you need. Thio be cognizant off is that you may have to change some

of your processes in order. Thio accommodate both something that works for you and something that works for the person that you are working with on dim my experience. A lot of authors confined out quite a frustrating period, but it is actually if you can understand how much it is improving your own processes toe have to do with that way because if they're not making full sense to somebody else, chances are you're wasting time searching for files that you can't find or doing things in a long roundabout way that you don't necessarily need to do. Or you also find as you do open process document For a virtual assistant, you find, Oh gosh, I've got four steps there. I actually only need to, you know, because that's just the nature of when it grows up organically. It's just is a bit messy, and it just needs needs a bit of tidying up. The other thing I found back in when I started hiring Waas that I then looked at my own writing and publishing process. Aunt

, How you know just the steps between idea notes. You know how how I hold notes and things on different books and different genre, how it turns from notes into text and how it goes angles on through the aging process, design and so on, just making that process as smooth as possible. And I think a lot comes together when you begin to get a bit of a team who get you it be it one person orm or who actually understand your way of doing it and who know how. You know they know the way you think. And they could bring their strengths to balance out your weaknesses. And I think this is one big important tip is don't hire people who have the same strengths and weaknesses is you hire people who have different strengths. Andi, I think that's really, really key. Got a couple of questions? Yeah. Do you want to have a look? Yeah. So

, uh, Vicky says in the U. S. I'm in the U. S s. So this may not be applicable in other countries, but my file system for financial stuff receipts, invoices, bills, statements is based on my federal tax return. Each line on schedule C is a separate category with multiple file folders within each other within each other. Files, research, marketing etcetera are color coded. So I confined them easily. I think that's great. And I think it would apply no matter what country you're in, you know, look and see how your particular and tax people work out the expenses that you're allowed and so on and follow their method because it makes it all so much easier at the end rather than you having different terms for, say, marketing expenses than they have or whatever it might be or dividing things up in different ways. Great. Thank you. Yeah, No, I think also it is a really good tip just to reiterate that point. Whenever I bring on something new

or do something new in my accountancy software, I always refer to my accountant and say, How would you like me to categorize this eso? Like, for example, when I started paying, you know, a contractor or a freelancer? I've never done that before, so I didn't know how to attribute it, So yeah, that just means that the end of the year there's no, you know, confusion about what anything means. Jewels, Horn says. Did you find a D A who already had processes you could tap into? I'm guessing that's directed at me. Um, so I found a V a virus recommendation from a friend who's who had a V eight already working for them on. But they are also an author, so they knew a lot of the things that I would be asking them anyway. On DSO, I trusted that recommendation because I trusted the person on. Do they have skills that I do not? They are frighteningly efficient when it comes to administration on detail and

consistency on I'm none of those things. Eso you're not so bad. I would say you have seen a hell of a lot worse, but yeah, herself, she laughs hollow laughter from such a But, um, I think you know, author Va is a growing job category. Lots of people are getting into this because 10 years ago just didn't exist. You know, you have a handful of best selling authors, whoever would even think about hiring assistance. Now it's becoming so much more common and it does help. If you have somebody who understands what it is to be in India. Author on Do you know some of the needs and things, especially when it comes to the third category that we're going to be looking at, which is the market here category? You know, somebody who has social media experience may not understand what it is

for unauthorized to do social media because it is quite different. There's a you know, just take unexamined, aerated possibility. But in a lot of business of social media is very pushy and could be, quite, you know, out there and crash even cross. In some cases, that will not work mostly with readers who don't tend to like that sort of approach. They just they just move off it. So in terms of the kind of the subtle soft stuff that's hard to communicate, and that's also so embedded in you that you may not even know how to give that instruction on it, maybe just so inherent to how you do things that you're not even conscious of it. I think it could really help if if you get somebody who has experience, but it isn't necessary one off. The people that I work really, really close with hadn't any experience working with authors until she worked with me and it's, you know, she's absolutely fantastic, so it isn't necessary. But I think transfer jewels question that it certainly can, can

help. So I think there's just one other point we should probably make on, which is, with the exception off cover design on editing. I think it's important that we as authors and business owners, know how to do the task we're about to ask somebody else to do, because there's a tendency that when we don't want to do something because we don't know how to do it or we don't like doing it, you know, you know, before we've really mastered that action, we'll just pay and just throw money at the problem and get somebody else to deal with it. The problem with that is you are they're not able to know whether or not they're doing a good job. Andi, you're they're not able to help them. If they go wrong, well, they've broken something, so I think it's always really important, especially because we are empowered. Indie authors to know how we need to do something before we then pay somebody else to do it for us. With the exception of those two I mentioned at the start, Yeah, I think it's absolutely key. Onda

more you know about also editing and design. You can feed in, but you don't You want the hands on experience off those I find this problem is worst with marketing. There is a sort of a fantasy that goes around, you know, that that that alters have, especially when they start out that they can give the marketing to somebody else. Onda. Somebody else is going to be able to, and it's probably the aspect of the work after the writing that they're, you know, really cannot, um, hand over you. You've got to be part of the process that actually works at who your ideal reader is. You know who are your comparable? So all of that is something you have to be very involved in Onda a lot of the time. All this is still thinking about traditional ways off marketing rather than the kinds of ways that actually sell books for indie authors and just talk a little bit about some of the tasks that are very handover rubble. If that's the word and in the marketeers

on the book, the person who's growing the business and out there kind of shouting about is the book promotion on marketing. So obviously launching a book, you can get a lot off the actual, um, administration. A lot of a lot of the work there, while you will have to craft probably the descriptions and the creative that goes into your launch materials. A lot of it after that is really quite administrative, can be handed over quite easily, and it really helps. It keeps your energy for actually launching the book and talking about the book. So, you know, setting a podcast block tours any of that kind of thing, your email marketing while you might writeth e actual content Onda. Same with your social media. You can get help with the actual setting up with it on. Everything could be pre scheduled. Now it doesn't all have to be done at the time. You can, you know, planet out well in advance advertising. Similarly, you don't you will be involved

in the creative and the making off your social media posts and ads is part of the maker, but the actual getting them out there and making sure they're reaching the right people, that's the mark. Tear them. Who has to do that? Um, S e o search engine optimization, which we don't have time to explain what that is, but look it up. It's very important in terms off making sure that your book is found, or at least that you've done your best to enable it to be found by somebody who wants to discover a book like that. These things are best handed over, especially if you don't fully understand what you're doing to get. You could get some help with it. Once you understand the principles of what you're doing. You know the categories, the keywords, the kind of reader you want to read the comparable office that you have. But they can actually then help you to set up the structure, prizes and giveaways. Also, anything else on the market year end? That's about it. I think I don't think so

. Yeah, they're pretty much the major ones, so yeah, I think the final thing to say is in terms of help, you know, working with somebody consistently is a lot better for you, Andi. For them creating a relationship over time. Getting somebody, Newell, the time is quite wearing because you have to keep training people in. It takes a long time sometimes to explain all that stuff stuff that we were talking about. So, you know, the way to make sure that that happens is be decent. Be caring and kind of person to work with the fair. Pay your bills on time, pay quickly. A lot of people who will be helping you will be relying on that money. They're not big corporations. You can have a hurt your 60 or 90 day waiting period. You know, pay as quickly as you can see the time that you're putting into your assistance as an investment and take your time. Take

care, thio. Actually communicate. Well, slow down. Probably things that you can kind of bumble Bump bang out yourself. You need to just take step back, take a breath. Make sure you fully understand before you commission them, try to not model people up and just generally being respectful of their time and their skills and their energy as well as your own any. Any other tips on working with people? I don't think so, No. Okay, so, yeah, that's it, folks. And I just will read Jules comment here the final one because I think she's got saying some really sound and interesting things. It takes so long to learn everything yourself 2 to 3 years to get your head around processes, adds CEO etcetera, which I agree it's necessary to understand. So for me, it's taken that time to get the point where scale becomes possible. Wondering how you find balance between this

on the writing, which for me has taken a back seat. It's like a you neglect education. I think I think a unit length education's a brilliant way to think E mean. It's one of the most ambitious jobs you could aspire to in this world because it's got three huge skills behind us. The writing, the publishing, the business you need to get good at all of those how I balance. So ask Sasha how she balances inimitable. How I balance is by putting the writing first, so I try to write first every day. Don't open the email, Don't look the phone. Don't do anything just get up to my little morning ritual. It's all kind of nicey Nice on. Then. Go straight into writing on it. Stay there, Stay with the writing. And I know when I walk away from the writing, which is I get up with kind of ridiculous oclock so I could do all of that because then the day takes over on there's always something that I have planned for always something unexpected coming in the door. But at least

the writing is done for the day. And then I'm happy doing everything else. If I don't get the writing done on, I'm constantly thinking. I wish I was writing. So that's how I do it. What about you? Where you were morning person and evening, Right? I was thinking more along the lines of, like, gin and chocolate for balancing E. Okay, let me try again, eh? So badly. That's how I managed. No. Okay, wait. Let me let me start again. Um, if I'm honest, I think the way my brain works is that I take one project at a time on DSO. I guess patching is probably how I work. So I wrote 20,000 words in like 10 days on then now, Now I I just you know, I expunged everything from my brain. And now I need a break. I can't write, you know, for another two weeks. So now I'm working on website upgrades and, you know, managing my inbox and advertising and stuff like that. So for me, it's like if I'm doing

creative work, everything else falls away and that is all I can do. So I tend to batch now. Either I'm doing creative work or I'm doing yeah, managing business ing marketing that side. And that's you know, and then there's a few things that I do every week, but for the for the broad. But what words? Or I'm struggling now? No, but I think it's interesting. We've given two completely different approaches, and they both get the words out on. Really, it's about experimenting for yourself, because sometimes the way you think it's best for you may not necessarily be. So you know, either way works on. There are other ways to do it to, um, the thing is, I think to, but to make absolutely core Central is that the writing doesn't suffer because what's 100% sure is that the call of the outer world is bigger and louder than the inner call to write on. It can be too easy

to find. Oh my God! Three months have gone by and I haven't really written anything on DSO. Quarterly planning is another big important part off how I do things. I have an intention for the quarter and under each, you know, maker, manager of marketing marketeer on. You know, every week I'm working on another little chunk of that intention. If you have that quarterly intention. If you like some weeks ago out some weeks don't. But there's enough time over a quarter toe, you know, flag a bit and then catch up or get ahead of yourself and then have a rest or whatever. Andi, That's really important to me that I do kind of in my calendar see it that it's balanced out that I have allocated, you know, advanced amount of time to each of these aspects because it's very easy for it to fall away. I've been finding more and more. I'm going in an intuitive cycle, so I have, like I've noticed. I need an input phase and then I'm output phase on

. Do it very much. Get a particular feeling or sensation when I've output as many words I can. It doesn't mean that I don't know how the rest of the book's gonna go just means that I haven't input enough. You know, inspiration, books, TV, whatever visits to museums or whatever. I haven't had enough of that in order to then go again. It's like I'm like a battery. Basically, I like I like, use all my inspiration energy, and then I have to refill. I tend to go in six weeks cycles, but sometimes, like at the moment, I had a very hard sort of two week binge of writing. And so now I'm, like, empty and doing medial website updates instead, Yeah, so the point is, folks, it's never perfect. It's always a bit messy. Everything we talked about today is about recognizing that you do model through to some extent on. Sometimes you can find people who will hold your hand and help you to model through a little bit better. So hope that some of those tips were useful to you the

way December falls and the way Christmas and holidays fall this year. We won't have a fiction and nonfiction podcast next month. December We'll be back in January on with a new theme and perhaps a new way off doing this. But until then, happy writing and happy publishing, and we're here, as always, for your email and on the Facebook forum. If you have any questions or any follow up that you want to do, the podcast will be out on the block on Friday, and that will have the transcript show notes and any links to anything that we've mentioned here today. So yeah, just by by really yeah, bye bye from her. You've been listening to the Ask Ally self publishing fiction and nonfiction podcast with Orna Ross and Sasha Black

are fiction nonfiction Salon is brought to you by specialist sponsor Izzard Inc Publishing. Helping you navigate the publishing world while you stay in control of your work is Erdinc Publishing. Self publishing is no longer publishing by yourself. We would like to thank Desert for their support for this show. Our weekly self publishing advice podcast is brought to you by Ally. The Alliance of Independent Authors find MAWR author advice, tips and tools that are self publishing advice center, self publishing advice dot or GTA. And if you haven't already, we invite you to join our organization and become a self publishing ally. You can do that at Alliance Independent Authors Yorg. Now what are you waiting for? Go write and publish.