Hello and welcome to the blossom, your awesome podcast, episode number 34 today on the show, Author and blogger brian Chhota is here, brian is the author of Get out of your head a book series that helps people overcome various forms of mental illness. Brian also runs a website and blog of the same name, Get out of your Head dot com where he offers written advice, guidance and tips to help people overcome depression, anxiety and all sorts of mental illness. I am so honored and delighted to have brian here with us sharing his wisdom and insights, brian, thank you so much. Welcome to the show, thank you.

Thanks for having me Oh I'm so excited to have you here now I want to start a little with your background about how you got into this line of work, how did this transpire for you? Definitely yeah, so kind of interesting just in the sense that like I don't come from a medical background, I'm just kind of a dude that wants to solve problems. I am, I say in my books that I am an engineer at heart and so I like to figure out the way that things work and you know kind of have that relentless pursuit to be like, oh you know, the curiosity of how does something work, how do you figure it out, whatever. So you know, throughout my life I've dealt with anxiety and depression and obviously a lot of other folks have as well and my approach to, it was always kind of this curiosity, right? It was like okay, I know that what I just experienced was really difficult, but at the same time, there's some part of me that, like, not only like, am I reeling from what I'm, what I just dealt with, but I'm also, like, curious at the same time.

I'm like, what was that? You know, is there information to be found about it? Could I figure out what I just dealt? Could I potentially learn a lot about it? Could I master it one day? And so what got me into the world of self help and then also the mental health space was just going through specific bouts of anxiety and depression and again, having that curiosity, but like, if I point to a specific example, it would have been in college, one of the first weekend of college, um I had actually, like, it was a few months prior to that, I had just had my first panic attack in my life, it was on a date with a woman and it was, you know, it was a difficult experience in the sense that like, you like this person and you want things to go well and all of a sudden your mind is playing games with you, right? And the experience is all of a sudden taking a turn and the next thing, you know, you're like, I'm freaking out and I have no idea what's going on and, you know, the person that I'm with is not really, they don't know how to, how to deal with this and I don't know how to deal with it. So it was a very confusing situation for me and also it's like, you know when you're in high school, like relationships are like the end of the world to you and I'm not saying that they're not important as you get older, but like you take those things to be like, if you know, if it doesn't work out with this this woman, like it's going to be the end of the world, you know?

So um had a had a panic attack in high school and then a few months later had another one when I got to college also in front of a girl that I liked and you know, it's kind of funny because it's like a lot of the stuff that we talked about is very serious and whatnot, but there's also this component of it that's like, you know, a lot of it just revolves around like the fact that we all have emotions, we all, you know, want to be loved and we all want to um you know there we want to get into relationships and stuff like that. So there's almost like a sappy side to, to the stuff that I talked about as well, but so I got to college um I was seeing this girl a tiny bit, right, we hung out a couple of times and then she texted me one day and was basically like I'm coming over and I just didn't really know what to do, I could tell that she had been drinking and I hadn't and I was nervous about that. I was nervous. Also just in the fact that like, I guess one I was sober and also just I don't know, I was nervous, right? I was like this girl that's coming over, I like her, I want things to go well, I'm not sure how things are going to go. So you know, I had a tendency to get in my head about things I think a lot of people do and to some degree I still do and it's a it's a battle that you fight constantly, right?

But so I kind of magnified my anxiety in the minutes before she came over and then when she came over she sat down next to me and could feel that my heart was racing and I was you know, kind of in this revved up state. I was honestly kind of terrified in a strange way. Um you know, depending on how you look at it, it could be one of those things where it's like, you know, the girl could be like, oh it's kind of cute, like he likes me or something and then it could also be like, you know what, what the hell is going on? And so um at that moment in time, like I you know, I I didn't really have the insight into like this could be bad, this could be not bad, I was just like I'm freaking out, I'm totally scared, this seems like it's gonna be really bad. And so she sits down next to me and she takes the second approach of like, oh my God, what the hell is happening? Like why are you shaking? Like you're a freak yada yada yada starts swearing at me and again, like, you know this isn't one of those, I'm not saying this out of like being mad at her to this day, it's just kind of setting the scene and being like from my perspective, this is what I was going through and you know, as an 18 year old kid who like didn't know a lot about anxiety and you know, it was just kind of like a hopeless romantic or whatever, like this was kind of a terrifying thing to me and so she runs down the hall and she's like, you know, get away from me and never talk to me again, yada yada yada and I'm just like heartbroken, I'm like what, what the heck?

You know, I have no, I don't even know what's going on right now uh in my body, but I'm also trying to like run after this girl and like plead my case as to like, you know, I'm not a freak, like please hang out with me, whatever, right? It really, really stinks and so I woke up the next day and I just said to myself like again that curiosity came back where I'm like okay, I know that that stunk so bad and I'm like still in a lot of pain over it, but at the same time like I can't just keep living this way in the sense that like every single week or every single month I could just have a panic attack. I was like, I have to start figuring out solutions for myself. So that was kind of the moment in time in which I said like I'm really throwing myself into this venture, I'm going to learn as much as I can about it, you know, I'll go to doctors, I'll read books, I'll read journals, all that sort of stuff and then, you know, fast forward however many years I guess. So that was 2008 and then in 2000 and 18, so 10 years later after I had learned a lot of stuff, been through a lot of other scenarios uh in difficult situations in my life and you know, I'm not really trying to compare like my situations with other folks, just, you know, we all go through stress of varying levels.

So going through some of those situations and saying myself like, okay, I just read that book, I just read that blog article, uh what what strategy did I learn that I could bring to this situation to help me feel a little bit less anxious. Um what strategies could I apply in my life? That overall could lead me into a little bit less worry and anxiety. Right. And then, so in 2018 after I had Red and I don't know, synthesized as much information as I could, I published my first book. So I started writing it in 2017, but published in 2018. So that's called get out of your head a toolkit for living with and overcoming anxiety. And there's a lot of stories that are like personal stories, just like the one that I previously that I told a minute ago that outlined, kind of like my battle with anxiety and try to relate it. Uh give readers something to relate to and say like, hey, I see myself in that situation. I've been through something like that before and then be able to take some of the insights that I've had, um and apply those things to their own lives and their own battles. Um, so that is the long winded way of saying that's how I got into the mental health space, wow, okay, so, and I love you, you're very kind of proactive attitude about this.

So let me ask you. So in the beginning, I mean, are you just trying everything you're going to a therapist, you're taking potentially taking anxiety meds? I don't know. I mean, did you just try a bunch of different stuff, Was that part of the part of it at any point or? Yeah, I I really did try to open myself up to as many potential strategies or remedies as possible. I will say that like, you know my family is a little bit more on like the natural side of things. So I I did resist medication for a little while. Um But I have taken it in the past. Um It's one of those things that I guess I just want to say like right now I'm not a doctor so I cannot say what somebody should or shouldn't do in terms of medication. Uh It's kind of more just like work with your doctor, listen to their recommendations and then see how you feel if they say, hey I want you to try out this medication. Obviously it's up to you whether or not you want to take it, but then if they recommend that you do, I would just say follow their recommendations, see how you feel, Check in with them, report back and if you know, you feel as though something isn't working the way you want it to uh then share that information with your doctor.

They can tweak your medication plan. They may also say like, hey maybe you know that medication or medication in general isn't right for you. Um So I have been on a I did, I'm trying to think of what I was on. Some sort of ended up being like an SSR I for a while in college, I just didn't feel for me, I didn't feel like it made that much of a difference. Um I have, I don't, I don't know if try is the right word, I don't want to make it sound like a um, you know, some experimental kitchen or whatever it may be, but um, you know, from time to time where there's like a really nervous situation that I'm entering. I have taken like a Xanax or something like that and I guess yeah, my my mindset is like, all right, let me see what these different things, whether it's, you know, a breathing method of mantra that I say to myself, taking a Xanax, obviously again, that's only under the supervision of of of a a doctor, um but just trying to see how all of those things interact with your mind and your body and how those things work for you. So that was my mindset, right? It's like um I guess going back to the book, the, the reason why I called it the subtitle is a toolkit for living with and overcoming anxiety was um not only was I for I was relaying my experience and my experience was like, hey, I'm trying on all these different tools and seeing which ones work for me, but I also know that not every single strategy that works for me is gonna work for you or a different reader and so I'm basically in that book, I'm throwing a lot of different ideas at the reader.

And I'm also saying, hey, um some of these strategies are going to resonate with you and some of them are not, but the end goal is the same for every reader. And it's to figure out which of those strategies let you like the best and then create your own anxiety toolkit that you can then take with you to different fear provoking situations? Mm hmm. Okay. Now, you know, I really love this. Um part of just the way you kind of approached this. I love the fact that you were just open to the possibilities, right? Like really open to, okay, I want to try meditation. I want to try this breath work. I'm gonna try this therapist, I'm gonna try this medication. That's amazing. And you know, not everyone is that open brian. So let me now ask you. So really where when did you start turning the corner? What was it for you personally? Was it a series of things where you kind of started getting a handle on that anxiety? Was it one thing where did that epiphany or that shift begin?

Yeah, for sure. I think that some of it was just the the mere fact that like after enough time passes you get, I don't want to say that you get comfortable with anxiety, but you learn like it becomes like the devil, the devil, you know, so to speak, right? So it's like when you're 18 and you have your first panic attack, like it feels as though the world is falling apart and you're like, oh my goodness, what just happened? Am I dying? Um I would say for me somewhere around like the seven year mark and this is just from the fact that like um you know, I did try a bunch of different strategies, but it takes time, it takes. Some of those strategies are very nuanced, where for example, like one of the strategies I talked about in the book that I had read early on was this idea to like essentially visualize yourself in a situation that you're worried about and see the outcome that you want to occur. And so, you know, sometimes we kind of get into this brute force sort of mindset where we're like, well I just tried to do that, but it didn't totally work. But you know, whoever wrote that uh the idea or the book that from which it came was very confident in the idea and I'm looking up to this person, so I guess I'm gonna like go ahead and I'm gonna try it again.

And so I bring it to a new situation and that still didn't quite work, but maybe it worked a little bit or whatever, right? And so sometimes we can find ourselves and I definitely found myself holding onto strategies for like a year or multiple years won strategies that didn't necessarily serve me. So it was really a process of just like enough time needed to go by for me to get comfortable with the idea of anxiety or understand that like there are going to be some situations where I'm just not comfortable, but at the same time I've gone through, you know, however many bouts of anxiety I've, I've tried out all these different tools and I now I'm honing in on the ones that work for me. So again, it was kind of like somewhere around the seven year mark and this was really kind of what prompted me to write the book was like, I was going through this anxious uh experience in my own life and I kind of had some sort of epiphany. And again, it's like, uh well I guess I haven't said this before, but when I don't know when it comes to epiphanies, it's like sometimes they're like, I think we want them to be like the be all end all, like I totally solved it, but it was kind of more for me, like, hey, this is a moment in which I, I understand that I've made.

I finally realized I've made a lot of progress here. Uh maybe I haven't solved it 100% but I'm in so much better of a place that I was seven years ago and that's what really prompted me to actually write that book. So that was kind of um this moment that I talked about in that in that first work where I was at a client's office going through the situation where for better or for worse or for one reason or another, I was just very anxious and thinking negative thoughts all the time. Um and eventually again going back to that idea of like sometimes it just takes time. I spent most of like this entire project that I had for a client in my head thinking about bad thoughts and after a certain amount of time, like it's almost like this pattern recognition pops up in your brain and it's like, wait a second dude, like we've been doing this for a really, really long time and it's not working like you've got to try something else. And so at that moment that I sort of again had this little bit of of an epiphany and that was when I, I don't know, I just opened my phone, I wrote a bunch of strategies down, I said like, hey, these are the things that I'm going to leverage moving forward. These are the, I call them the 10 steps to getting out of your head.

Um some of them came from, you know, it's like, it's weird because it's like you don't know if they're just in your subconscious and you read them years ago and you just never really connected, connected the dots or whatever or if you really did just like pull them out of thin air, but um I kind of just wrote down everything I did like a brain dump and was like, hey these are the things that I think could help me not only with anxiety in general but also in this specific thing I'm going through right now. Um and then I kind of refined those a little bit and that became the framework of the first half of my first book and also in that situation, I was saying to myself like because I felt like I actually it was a milestone of like I've actually made some progress here. Um I don't know, I just felt like I really wanted to share some of my insights with the world. I always think about this right, it's like you almost, it's like so many people deal with anxiety and a lot of people have these kinds of insights, it's like in some ways you almost have to be bold right to like think that the insights that you have are like helpful are going to help other people or different than the ones that other people have come up with, but I think the more important thing is, is not necessarily like where the ideas came from, if they'll be, you know, um it's like if how helpful they'll be or how revolutionary they'll be or whatever, but just like if if you can go out and you can affect one person, if you can improve somebody's life with some of the stuff that you put out there um To me that was like that was what that journey representative was like I want to just share what I've learned and if I can save one person's life if I can make one anxious situation a little bit less difficult for someone like that's all worth it for me and that you know that's kind of what gave me the gall to write the book even though I had no again no medical experience, no background like that or whatever.

Um and a lot of people are like yeah why why are you writing a book like this? But um I don't know you get those things that just kind of call to your soul and make you want to do that. So that was why I wrote that one. Mm I love that. I think that's so powerful and so amazing because um it's just you never know who you're going to help, you never know who's gonna find it revelatory. You know what I mean? There might be one little thing in there that changes somebody's life and I just love that you were you know compelled to write it. So that is awesome brian thanks you're welcome. Yeah so you know now let me ask you what tips like for someone who has struggled with anxiety, what is a really practical a tip or some practical guidance you can offer someone with that, where should they start to kind of get a handle on things. Yeah, it is a tough question, right?

Because it is a personal thing where it's like some people have specific thought patterns that they go into. Um some people have just more overactive nervous systems where it's like, you know, there's two, there's two ways that we can get into anxiety either. Uh and maybe there's more, but there's 22 prominent ways, right? It's like either we think ourselves into fear or something comes into our world view, that kick starts our bodies, right? Uh gets our autonomic nervous systems or our our fight or flight systems going, that the sympathetic nervous system going and basically, like, has our heart rate pumping, has our palms sweating, whatever it may be, and maybe in turn because our heart is racing, we then jump into our heads. Um so there are different ways by which people feel anxious, So that's one of the tough things I guess about approaching or saying to someone like, hey, this is what you should try first. Uh And again, that's kind of like why the book is my first book is rather wide in the sense of like, I'm throwing all the ideas out you out at you.

I hope that one of them resonates, actually hope that a lot more than one resonates, but if it's just one that's great to one of the ones that I always come back to just because it's it's I don't want to say it's like the easiest one, but it's always with us, right? So if we go over these 10 steps to getting out of your head, which again makes up the first half of the, my first book Step one is just to breathe and it really is an obvious one, right? I think the difficulty with some of these steps is um you know, I talked about wanting or like wondering if the steps would be revolutionary or worrying that they wouldn't be and people would be like, oh, like this is stupid, why am I, why am I reading this right? But when it comes to breathing, it's like when we get nervous, we tend not, we we tend to uh our breath tends to get caught in our lungs or like in our upper chest, right? And when we are relaxed, we are usually breathing through our diaphragms like into our stomachs. And so I I want to make sure that I phrase this correctly. It's kind of a tongue twister, but it's basically like to make ourselves anxious as well as again, I'm gonna stumble on this a little bit, but it's like a a feature of being anxious is that we breathe shallowly and from our chest, but also if we want to make ourselves anxious, we can also breathe shallowly and from our chests and it's it's a very subconscious thing, right?

It's like we get scared, We start thinking worried worrisome thoughts and the next thing we know like we're freaking out and then somebody looks at us and it's like, hey hey just like calm down and breathe for a second, right? And it's it's frustrating when you hear it because it's like, well dude, like this is much more, you know, what's going on in my mind is a lot more complicated than just like telling me to breathe right? Like, you know, have some respect for my problems or something like that. But there's a lot of research out there um that basically shows that like again because um you know, breathing shallowly is both a feature of being anxious and it's also something that can make us anxious. The opposite is also true. So when we stop and we say to ourselves like I'm gonna take a second to breathe deeply and through my diaphragm, um we can get ourselves some relief from our anxiety and again, like kind of going into the science, right? So when we uh when when we get scared and when our fight or flight activation, excuse me when our fight or flight system activates, that's what's known as like the sympathetic nervous system activating in our bodies.

Um when like, so that's and I guess I'll just kind of try to make it clear for everyone. Like that is the fight or flight system in the body. The fight or flight system has almost like a counterpart or an opposite. And that's the parasympathetic nervous system which is people call it either the rest and rest and digest system or the feed and breed system. And so like both of these systems can't really be running at the same time, right? It's like if we're standing in front of a lion in the woods, um we are most likely like our sympathetic nervous system is kicking into gear and we're getting the heck out of there where we don't have time to like sit around and rest and whatnot. We're getting out of there quickly. But then at the same time once we evade that danger, we also need to get back to homeostasis because if we're stressed out and revved up all the time, like cortisol will be you know, flooding through our our bloodstreams and that's not healthy for those stress hormones to be in there all the time at a high level. Um And so one way to get ourselves out of anxiety as as well as get the awareness to apply some of the other steps that can be helpful in you know advancing that process is just to take a step back, take a deep breath, go through our stomachs and activate the parasympathetic nervous system.

So when we breathe in uh you know scientifically speaking I guess we we activate the sympathetic nervous system and then on the when we breathe out we activate the parasympathetic nervous system. And the difficulty of like either hyperventilating or not breathing deeply is like we're not getting a full exhale and that means that parasympathetic nervous system which again is the uh feed and breed or rest and digest system isn't getting a chance to activate us and bring us back to calm. And so sometimes I think what we find right is like when we feel better we think better we see things in a better light. And so to kick off that process we can basically sit down and again just breathe out fully and deeply. Um and really just give ourselves some of that relief that you know we've been craving wow now you know it is it's interesting because I know at the beginning you said that it seems like such an obvious one the just you know sitting back and taking a breath but it actually it it isn't and I find that um you know it's not obvious for people because they don't, a lot of people do not understand the power of the breath.

You know I'm just saying this is a uh you know someone who has been meditating and doing breath work for decades. So it's just it's so powerful and calming like instantaneously you know when we start kind of sitting and taking those deeper breaths. So yeah and I think maybe one of the like ways to refine it a little bit that statement right? Is it is simple and maybe that's what, like can offend people when we say, hey just breathe, but it's not easy and that's that's the the difficulty of it, right, is like if it were like, if it were easy enough that we would all just do it every time we were stressed then we wouldn't have to say it. Um but you know, even I find myself saying saying to myself like, hey dude, like you're stressed out right now, just take a deep breath, like exhale deeply, you're gonna feel a little bit better, you're gonna think better, you're going to see better. Mhm Mhm. Mhm Yeah, absolutely, and really, you know, my point was not to kind of demean anyone or anything in relation to that, but just kind of how we, I think as humans like complicating things and it's surprising to imagine like, whoa, something that, you know, because we don't just think it could be that simple and like you say it is simple, but it's not because it's almost like, wait, just what, like that's not gonna help me, I think, you know, is what a lot of people kind of presume off the bat because they don't understand the power of it, but then, you know, and how can it be so simple to just what, just take a few deep breaths and that will help calm my nervous system and you know, I feel less anxious.

Yeah, wow brian, okay, so my next question for you is tell me now, you know, do you find because years ago, I mean I love that everything is changing around this, um the mental health space, everyone so much more receptive to it because there was so much stigma around this. So have you kind of felt that shift in your line of work from the time you started several years ago to now kind of finding that people are more open and more receptive to, you know, mental health issues. It's definitely like a complicated or like a multifaceted thing. I think in general the answer is definitely yes. And the reason why I say that is every day you see more and more commercials books out there, you know, celebrities tweeting about mental health, different influencers with big followings talk about talking about mental health. So I do think the conversation is growing and I think that's great at the same time.

I also, I do think that we still have a problem with the fact that like on an individual level people are still embarrassed and ashamed of like not being mentally healthy and I'm not like that is not me casting any judgment. I have been there before. It totally stinks like if you know, um it is really humbling and really embarrassing to like open up to somebody and be like, hey, I'm depressed, right? Um it's, it's, it's one of the most personal things that you could possibly do and, and sadly um like tragically a lot of people are like their, you know, obviously that we've lost folks who would for one reason or another, I'm not saying that they, they necessarily think to themselves, like I would rather kill myself than have this conversation. It's not, it's obviously not that black and white, there are so many more factors and it's probably more of like a, I'm in so much pain. I'd rather not be here than um continue to deal with this. But at the same time, like if I guess in some ways it's like, even though the conversations are growing, like the fact that those instances still exist tells me that we still have a really long way to go.

And I think there's a lot of reasons to be hopeful and optimistic, but at the same time, it's like I still see those things happen and I'm like, you know, I don't necessarily take it like, what could I have done, right? Because you know, most of these stories you just hear in the news and I don't actually know some of these folks, but um it's still, you know, it's when it comes to mental health, it's like, it's such a personal journey that when you hear somebody say I deal with anxiety, I deal with depression, I'm going through this, I'm going through that like, it is impossible to not feel that person on such an emotional metaphysical level that it's like, you hear those stories and you almost like you almost do feel like what could I have done Because like that's my brother, that's my sister. Like and I don't mean like blood related. I mean like we went through the same exact things. We are connected so deeply on that level. Um So I think again, yeah, it's like the conversation is growing but we got a long way to go. I am very optimistic in the sense that people are becoming more open to the conversation. But we're still losing people on that on that individual level.

And that's that's definitely a tragedy. And that's you know, that's what keeps me going I want to help as many people as I can. Mm I love that. And I have to commend you brian because now this is going to sound very kind of you know, speaking to my questionnaire, you know, it's just you being a young man doing this openly and sharing your own story and really offering guidance and practical information for people. You're out there, you're on social media, you're on medium. You've got a website you're writing about it, You're speaking all over the place about it. So I just commend you for that because I think you're breaking down some of these barriers right about shame where it's kind of you know that kind of stereotypical thing like where it's more acceptable. And again, you know, we are kind of expanding these boundaries now of our you know, limited thinking, but, you know, back in the day, it was like, okay, it's more acceptable for, you know, a female to have anxiety or be depressed and be more vulnerable because she's more sensitive and all of these kind of stereotypical things, right?

Versus men having, you know, potentially more shame around being so open about that. So, I think it's so amazing that you're doing this work in the way that you're doing it. Thank you. I I really appreciate that means a lot to me um kind of makes me think of one other thing around the previous question of like, you know, um do we feel as though the conversation is growing that sort of thing? I think one thing that I worry about a little bit and this is just being like, like totally honest is um I worry that when something gets too mainstream, right? I want we want we want people to feel comfortable and we want people to feel loved. What we don't want to feel is we don't want people to feel that like um we don't want to and it's not even a belittling kind of thing. It's more like if the conversation around mental health gets too big and not serious enough, it can kind of come off as like um well, it's almost like we're not addressing the fact that even though the the conversation is growing, this is still like super super difficult, right?

It's I'm not saying like, we're being flippant or anything like that. It's kind of more like, um the more we talk about it, like in some ways, the more we're kind of like, from a societal standpoint, kind of being like, oh yeah, like it's not a big deal, and I guess it's two sides of the same point where it's like, on the one hand, it's it's not a big deal because it's like, it's okay to go through these things and we want people to feel comfortable and speak out and whatnot. On the other, on the other hand, we don't want to, like, make mental health seem like I'm trying to think of the right way to say it, it's like we still need to acknowledge the fact that even though more and more people are speaking out and more and more people are talking about it, there are still like, super, super difficult things for people, right? And that's one of the reasons why, like, if you look at my branding with like, you've got the snake in there um kind of snarling at you and whatnot. It's like the reason I didn't go for the vibe of like, you know, rainbows and unicorns was because in my mind, it's like, even if we get to the point where we're so open and welcoming to everybody who has mental health issues and obviously we should be we should still keep in mind the fact that this is suffering that people are dealing with.

And I, I, I apologize if it sounds like I'm talking to you, I'm kind of just speaking out loud. Um but it's like, I, I still want to give people that space to be like, hey, I know a lot of people talk about mental illness and what they're going through, but like if you are still struggling really, really hard and you don't know how to express it, even though the conversation is growing, that is not only okay, that is par for the course. Um, and that should be another reason that you like, you know, I'm trying to be that person or be a person that people can feel comfortable reaching out to knowing that I'm not going to, you know, put some, like, Tiktok Tiktok, excuse me, Tiktok vibe on it, where it's like, I'm dancing away my anxiety or something, right? It's like, I'm going to give you the space for this to be not only comfortable, but also serious and I'm going to take you seriously, um and we'll get through it together, however, we need to, wow, okay, so that was really profound. I love, I think you're just, it's so I'll just say you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing and people who find you and end up working with you and taking, you know, reading your stuff and taking your guidance are gonna be so lucky for that because that's so thoughtful of you what you just shared right now, and I think it speaks volumes to what you're doing and where you're headed with this, so that's amazing.

Thank you. So I I really appreciate that you're welcome. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's so um heady and, you know, just deep and thoughtful to be like, yeah, it is great, but, you know, there is a limit to how great that is, because we don't want to just make light of this, we want to still honor people's struggle with this very serious thing, and um yeah, I think it's amazing that, you know, you're out here speaking about it with your expertise and experience and, kind of, helping spread this message in the way you are. So, that's amazing. Yeah, and now, you know, let me ask you, so, depression, did you suffer from depression as well, or was it just anxiety? Yeah, so, I I actually have a second book out, and I'm sorry to just famously plug the books, but, you know, I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was helpful and also contribute to the conversation. Um so, right around the time that I was publishing book one, um I found myself in a depressive episode, and for me, I was, like, kind of shocked, like, I mean, I was a little bit younger, right?

This was 3.5 years ago, a little bit more naive, I don't know, right? Like, who knows how much you've changed in 3.5 years, I would like to think a lot. Um But I I published that first book or I was about to and I'm thinking to myself, like, in some naive way, like, I have figured out this mental health game. I've got it, you know, I've got it all sealed up. I'm sending the book out and lay back, relax will help some more people. But we're done here, Right. And then, as I started, like, as I was putting the finishing touches on the manuscript, I like, it didn't it's kinda one of the things that, like, depression can sometimes creep up on you and I didn't really realize it for a little while and then it hit me that I was definitely depressed. And like, for me, the the terrifying thing was, I had like, I I didn't see it coming whatsoever. I was like, you know, I've got a great family, I live a good life, got a decent job, all these different things. It was, it was definitely the the beginning of a new journey for me, where it was like, again, I thought I had all this stuff figured out.

And again, Anxieties. Anxieties, not depression, but at the same time, I I guess I just naively thought that I had figured out the mental health thing and in that second book, um I talked about the journey itself, like, what made me depressed and so, you know, it's ok to uh to not, I guess for folks listening, like it's it's ok to um to say like, I don't know what makes me depressed or I guess put another way, there doesn't necessarily need to be a specific thing that makes you depressed, right? It um depression is a very complex thing, so it could be a multitude of factors that arise from uh you know, the, I guess I'll take a step back for a second and and talk about like a little bit of the book, it's a holistic view into the disease. Um So there's a there's essentially like a a model that there's, there's a framework called the bio psycho social model developed um by these folks uh john romano George angle and john romano at the University of Rochester in in the seventies. Um and essentially it's kind of just like a holistic view at um talking about how diseases arise and so especially on the mental health side, they were trying to say that like, no, it's not just like a chemical imbalance in the brain in the sense of like it is a biological disease or a genetic disease and for that reason, like you just have to take drugs and um and then like, and that's the only way to secure it or solve it.

Um and again, just distress, the medical or the medication side of things, uh medication can be amazing, like, I know a lot of people for whom it has saved their lives? Um So whenever I talk about medication, I just want to stress that I'm not downplaying it at all, I'm just saying like there are definitely other things that can also help us. Um So the book basically looks at again, uh this bio, excuse me, bio psychosocial model. Um So that is sort of a an amalgamation of three words, which is biological, psychological and social. Um And so we could we could kind of dive into any one of those categories and say like, hey there are influences in each one of those that could potentially depress us, right? So biologically speaking, right? If we are thinking doc excuse me, I went down the wrong path. Biologically, biologically speaking, if we're eating the wrong foods, if we're not getting enough exercise, um You know, that that could definitely be one thing that leads us to depression also if we're not getting enough sunlight, you know, we need vitamin D. To be is I don't know, it's uh something that helps us maintain a healthy functioning. On the, excuse me.

On the psychological side, if we're thinking dark agonizing thoughts, it's going to be like, I don't want to say easy for us to get depressed, but you know, the the the the likelihood goes up and then on the social side, like that's kind of everything else, right? So it's like, do we like our friends, do we like where we live? Do we like our jobs are, you know, did we um, I guess, you know, did did somebody that we loved recently passed away? Did it that have a large impact on us? So the book is basically a deep dive into all those different spheres, talking about how each one of them could contribute to the disease we call depression. Um, and then I use my own journey to again, like it's, I don't know, it's just my style of, of writing as I'm trying to, I'm trying to give my own story and give folks something that they can relate to. So yes. Uh, to answer the question, I have definitely dealt with depression. That was um, that was a battle that probably lasted like a little over a year, maybe a year and a half. I say in the book and it's, you know, I try to write from the heart and be as truthful as I can. Um I have put that one in the past for the most part, but I think that folks realize that like as they go down this path of mental healing or the the journey of mental health that it's not necessarily so binary, right?

It's not like I used to be anxious now, I'm not anxious anymore. I was depressed three years ago. I'm not depressed anymore. Um, I think it's important for folks to remember that um mental health is not a straight line, right? It's, it's often a twisting turning road and so what that could mean is like, you know, we could be depressed last year and then feel a lot better this year and then a month from now we could take a couple steps back, but we might not necessarily be in as bad a spot as we were a year ago, that sort of thing. So it's important I think for folks listening to remember to kind of give yourself some credit, right? Look at some of the winds that you've accumulated over the years and say to yourself, like, hey, I might, I might be having a bad day today. I might be having a bad month, you know, this month. Um, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are like, it doesn't mean we've, we've reentered depression or some other state of mind and I guess at the same time, uh, it's like, I'm trying to, trying to put this the right way. It's like, it doesn't necessarily mean that we, um, we, we are depressed, but it also doesn't mean that like, well we should get, we should allow ourselves the space to feel that way without judging ourselves, right?

Not saying like, oh man, like I thought, I, I thought I figured this whole thing, the depression thing out and now I'm having a bad day, like because then the thoughts start spiraling and all of a sudden it's like we kind of put ourselves back into that state because of how we're feeling and the beliefs that we have. So it's important to just you know, sometimes I don't want to be like too crunchy or whatever but like kind of just be right and observe the thoughts and not necessarily dive into them too much because sometimes we can manifest the feelings in our bodies that we don't want to occur just by the way that we think mm wow, that is just so true and so powerful. So um now brian, you are just so full of wisdom and light around this. Let me it's it's been really amazing and incredible conversation here, let me ask you in closing what is your message? Um words of wisdom, anything you kind of want to leave for the people, what would that message be?

Yeah, I'm gonna try not to get too emotional on this one, but it would be like um you know, whatever you're going through, remember that it it not only can get better but it probably will uh it could take some time but I think it's going to get better and um never lose sight of that hope because if you do it's it's you know, it's a long road. So um and I guess I would also say just from um like a personal standpoint, like if you know if you if somebody is listening and they want to and they find me on social media and you want to reach out, like I would be more than happy to have a conversation with you. Uh talk to talk to you about some of your struggles, like I'm here for you. So uh that is awesome brian that you have been awesome. I just thank you so much. Thank you. So I I appreciate it. A great conversation, awesome. Thank you. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Okay. Mm hmm.