Hello and welcome to the blossom, your awesome podcast episode number 39 today on the show. She is back. The one and only Kathrin Jansen Burkett is here with us. I am so excited to have her hair joining us again. We are going to have another conversation, a deeper conversation about wakefulness. We're gonna be talking about her book, River to Ocean and intrinsic worth among other amazing, incredible insights. I know she's going to have for us. Catherine, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. Oh, I am thrilled and honored and very excited to connect again with you. Thank you for having me Sue. Oh, you're welcome. I feel the same way. I'm so honored. You're just such a light and I really feel so honored to have connected with you. So um you know, I am going to say for those who don't know, I know we talked about wakefulness but to just kind of touch on that to help people kind of understand what that is.

Well, it's um it's funny because the word woke has become kind of a political word these days, which is not what was happening when I wrote my book as the word wakefulness in it. Um I can I can share more about this if you'd like. But the idea would be that our best life is living as are most conscious selves and that's on a few different levels. And so I wanted to make an idea like that which you know, who doesn't love the idea of living wastefully and having Expansiveness and being connected to yourself and others, but in almost like an idea of like, ok, we've got to break it down though. So what does that actually look like with your relationship yourself? How are you going to deal with your mind when it tells you things that are frightening or untrue or beliefs that you don't can't just kind of talk yourself out of, how do you face your death as kind of a sense from a sense of wakefulness and this deep connection to yourself, you know, others and something larger.

So I really try to have it relatable and practical at the level of having ideas, but also then having practices that you could to manifest those ideas and make them your own lived reality. And then I think I probably mentioned this before, I like to throw in some stories just for people to get a sense that this is really happening and from all walks of life, my stories come they're not just my own just for inspiration. So if that person can do it then I can do it. So it's living as are most conscious self within our human journey and actually our human journey itself is such an opportunity to expand and heal and grow. Does that all make sense? So it does, that's um you know, that's a lot. So I'm sure you know, really break that down. So now you mentioned, you know, kind of a practical something to kind of get started with this. So what's just the simplest kind of practical tip? Well, it's um it's to make it practical.

So it depends on like if you were to say about our relationship to ourselves, um it would be about beginning maybe with self talk, the idea of like well we can I like the idea of loving ourselves about what happens today, Sue for you and I if we make a mistake, how are we going to actually treat ourselves? So just bringing the practicality of awareness Like, wow, I'm horrible to myself. I don't get to make a mistake. That's a place to intervene them. So practical and practice stuff is ultimately not just about behavioral ism sometimes it's about behaviors but it's about intervening. So it's kind of taking stock of where that struggle is. I call it like I like metaphor in my book. I do river and let nature stuff. So it's like where are we caught in our Eddie? Where's your Eddie? So where's my Eddie? And then having a way to intervene on that that that transforms it. Mm And so kind of breaking down that down even more.

So just a hypothetical scenario And stuck in regret of something I did in the past that I'm unable to let go. Mm hmm That is excellent. I mean and um I would offer and this is just kind of like wakefulness around emotion 101 at least for me I was raised with the idea that emotions are negative or positive which is not now current, understanding what we do with emotions. You know my anger itself innately is powerful and important, meaningful. Um actually is there to serve my consciousness but I can really hurt people with that anger. So the idea of regret or guilt is another one. Um you know it doesn't feel great and at the same time and the duality of it doesn't feel great. That's why it's motivating. If we respect our regret, if we ask the tough question, if I feel guilty, what did I do wrong?

What am where did where am I being unconscious? Those feelings are really here to serve us. So I guess the lead would be welcoming your regret like sitting down in an inner park park bench and saying like let's talk So if I have regret, I can that means that I can learn from what happened. That means I may need to follow up and offer some repair to somebody if I was unkind or whatever that would be betrayed them in some way. So I just love the idea that what organic is here to serve. That's what I know. And then as we meet it with an openness um it doesn't mean I go beat myself up when I feel guilt or regret. It means in fact in a really self respecting way that feeling that emotion helps me to be aware of and a way to something being amiss. Mm wow, that was so powerful. Good Because I think we all I mean that's one of those things that was just off the top of my head.

But you know, I know we all have some sense of guilt or regret or something that we kind of just carry and struggle and let go. Yes. And there's you know, forgiveness is a very loaded word I find in our culture and it's a wonderful experience. For example, if I don't forgive myself, I can carry a lot of shame and internal criticism to my grave if I don't forgive someone else, I actually that lives in my body, maybe even more than in their body. But if we don't do right work, you know, if we don't attend to what was a miss and just try to forgive, that's where people have ghosts. It's like no, I'm I'm unable to get over the mistakes I've made or regrets I have. So that's the other thing is when whether it's forgiveness from someone else. But in the idea of forgiving ourselves, if we do that, paying attention, just it's really a practice of accountability.

That's how then we can be free. I do have regrets. I'm sure you do. I've I've I don't like the word mistakes a lot. But you know, I've been unconscious of my life and as I paid attention to that, knowing that my worth is not on the line, then if there's something to be done about it with another person or if there's certainly there's a learning from it, then it doesn't I don't have to live in the past, like that past does not travel forward with me. Mm. Okay, so now you said something really interesting right now, You said, knowing my worth is not on the line. So I how do we get to know that? Because so many people, I presume just, you know, they're they're worth is on the line. Right. Yeah. Well, and they don't even know it because we can be live from a paradigm that that we come from, you know, so the generations ahead of us, then we can live in a culture, many of us do. That's a lot about achievement and Lookism So not doing or not succeeding or not being attractive and a culture can be a less than state.

Um and and so worth. The idea of worth would be it is absolutely intrinsic. You were born with it, Sue, I was born with it. There's nothing we can do to reduce it. There's actually nothing we can do to add to it. I can add to my life and the quality of life. I can get good at something and become competent, but that doesn't make me more worthy. And so I what I offer to people is when we are babies there, we know this, there's a part of us and a deep down inside that already knows we're enough or we wouldn't have cried for food? We would have thought the other twin should have the food? You know, I'm a colicky baby. I'm, I'm not a good baby. And so it becomes at some point along the line, something happened where there was confusion about being good enough. Maybe I struggled in second grade and it was hard for me to do math. So in my mind, my little kid mind, I didn't know the word good enough as much as I just wasn't smart enough.

But then that became, I'm not good enough, I'm different. And so I think we just go back to what's already there, but some people would have a hard time and many people who would have a hard time believing that like, no, I don't feel worthy. So I will just talk about, well, how about we hold the idea part of you knows this. You were born with it and you're returning to it. But we probably have to go in and talk to that injured part of you. Um, we need to kind of, um, look toward making choices that will reflect worth rather than a sense of, I don't have worse. So I have to prove myself. So maybe I go a day without makeup. Maybe I decide, I don't know if I want to move up the corporate ladder. Is that coming from what I want or is that coming from a sense of fear and again having to prove myself. Mm So now this so is it wild to say that a lot of people overachievers are actually they're they're wanting to prove themselves because they intrinsically struggle with self worth.

Yeah. And that that that sense of insecurity, the thing about if if we're successful at proving this, we don't feel the insecurity suit, I don't ever feel my unworthiness if I am perfect enough. So it's it's insidious. It's when sometimes it's when people lose a relationship and they're worth was attached to having a partner or being chosen or they lose a job or they have a disability and they're worth, they didn't know the conditions that they're worth until they lose those conditions would be my point. So yes, um high achieving people, you know, what I say to them too is it's not that you have to sit around and eat bonbons and you can't enjoy your hard work and what it will produce as outcomes. But can you imagine not having to do this, having a sense of freedom and not having this fear which might actually live in your body as anxiety, but you never put that together. You never realized that that low hum of anxiety is actually this angst that I better keep going producing doing to be enough mm, wow, that is um so profound to just uh that just gives me perspective I didn't have, you know, wonderful Yeah, Well and and people, you know, it's not about not being successful.

It's not about the Western culture is innately um wrong. It really is just how to be in it. So even so starting like as the therapist, many people come in to talk about depression and anxiety and I tend to go to the core like, let's see where this is coming from. And sometimes within a first session we have unpacked it to go, this is it, this is the piece. And you won't have peace without a sense of being enough innately. But then you can go and do your life from this place of this is just what I want. For example, the book, I couldn't have written this book until I really knew my worth because the stakes would have been too high in terms of whether the book was successful and I knew that. And so the book and I were having a conversation about I wanted to do this. I never had known I wanted to do this till it kind of came to me throughout meditation. Um but I really did have to make sure my worth was not on the line.

Mm wow. And you know, this kind of having this other perspective. It's like I think it just offers so much comfort to people like the underachiever who's just outwardly lacking self worth, right? Because you know, Yes, the person who's doing all of this actually. That's amazing. That's amazing. Beautiful. That's a great dot that you just connected and it is of comfort and I love that word. It's a comfort to know. It can look a lot of ways. So yes, some of them sounds really odd, but some of our most culturally successful people, the dark night of the soul for them is a deep sense of insecurity and living with a lot of fear to keep producing to keep, you know, it's kind of a level of performative living. So they might be more anxious where that person you just described might feel more depressed because they don't engage because it's too scary because again I could fail and then I'm a failure.

But you're really just looking at two different sides of the same coin. Mm wow, this is um powerful. Oh my God. Just you are like just a oh you are so kind. You really are. And you know, again, I just, I want to say I'm so lucky to have connected with you. You're you just have so much wisdom. So thank you, you're welcome. Now. You know, something you touched on, I want to get into your book and I know you're going to read a passage for us but before I forget something you would mention something along the lines of I'm not into suffering and I love the sound of that because right? Yeah. Talk to us about that. Okay. I know it's wonderful. Um well, yes. And then so I you and I think before we went live, so this is great. It's the idea of radical acceptance and really it's about true mindfulness.

Mindfulness is not always then because if we get quiet and fully in the moment, if we've been avoiding things where it's going to come crashing down and so true mindfulness is kind of, it's connected to this idea of radical acceptance that I'm accepting reality as is right now. And that doesn't mean I like it and it doesn't, you know, I might prefer something different. It doesn't mean it won't change. But right now in this moment I accept reality. And the suffering piece is the the idea that are we suffering because of our reality? Are we suffering because we're fighting it? And the fight is where the suffering is. And I'm not saying evolve, I'm not saying that change is not part of a healthy process, but it's kind of a starting place. How change and acceptance kind of need to work together. And just the, it's kind of like once we and I talked to people all the time like what does it feel like right now to just accept?

You know, you have a drinking problem or your partner has fallen out of what rather than fight it right now is even there's some relief because you're not off in some huge internal or external reaction and it doesn't mean that we're not going to do something about it, but right now in your body, What do you notice? And just it's just so consistently relief. Um and then there's an energy that can come from that relief that now if I do want to do something about it, I'm coming from a place of accepting this as is right now. So I have that energy to work with it with. Excuse me. It's kind of counterintuitive versus I'm all stressed out because of what's happening and then I'm compromised. I'm actually under resourced to deal with it. Mm hmm. And so and then when that comes up, like what is that? Is that super common? Are those excuses is that fear? Where does that come from? Well, is that that just the anxiety of accepting what is.

Mm hmm. Then then. Yeah. Well, that's why I give that caveat of It doesn't mean I like it. Like like we can work with in a duality environment. Two things can be true. I can accept this and not like it. I can accept this. And still at some point it may change maybe soon. Maybe 10 minutes from now. And so duality is a really important piece of kind of our own personal like life often works and opposites like that. Uh And just so what I work with that a more emotional level. For example, is if the feelings do come forward or kind of come online when people are like accepting this, I have cancer. That feels so scary. Even though this kind of relieving because now I'm not denying that any more than I helps. It helps them sit with their feelings And kind of build that threshold to settle that fear to be You know with those strong feelings rather than feelings kind of um if there are too intense that then we avoid that very thing.

So accepting the reality is you're very astute in this. So is often about just being able to sit in our bodies as some feelings come up around that reality. Mm hmm. And so and then that is kind of the gateway to the suffering kind of ending. Exactly. Exactly. And one of the And we can talk as much or as little about the book. Um I'm just leaving it in because these are the conversations I love having um in my story from the Field from the Embracing death and dying chapter The Gentleman and He is still alive. Um He has lived longer than predicted. Um but he he writes about this because he's very terminal. It's it's he's close to the end of his life And he talked about fighting it or embracing it and the peace and you know these are nice concepts. But you and I are not in a terminally ill situation right now facing that down And he is doing that work.

And so it was Exactly even that reality. I'm going to die soon. And what a great life energy. and what quality of life he was able to give himself by not fighting that reality any longer. Mm wow. That um is I think for anyone wanting to feel really sorry for themselves, like that's amazing. Um you know, kind of thought there to think about because we always Yeah, you know that comparative suffering and we all Exactly. Exactly. And I would offer the, excuse me, we can bring so much more compassion. Like when I'm not fighting the reality, then there's a relief I'm not suffering in that way with stress and stress hormones, we can turn towards ourselves which is often that relationship to self peace and just offer compassion for how hard this reality is right now.

And that's incredible to then have an opportunity to practice compassion and to practice empathy and to practice this. Excuse me. This kind of sense of I am with you as this is difficult. It is a kind of like this is hard but the suffering isn't I'm fighting it. The suffering is just the working with it. Yeah. Yeah, wow, okay. And now getting into your book, I do want to talk to you about this and would love to have you kind of I think you said you wanted to read a passage from it. So, however you want to start with this or you know, whatever you think is best. Well, I have one and they're both very short. There's a poem called um as you are which is about intrinsic worth. There's also a little paragraph that I put in around the idea of this kind of being connected to something larger than yourself. So which one appeals to you? So, both don't be short, don't be short.

I love it. You want it all, You're just like me. I want it all too soon. Let's have it all. Um we pick between those two. That's right. That's right. I know. It's like chocolate ice cream with fudge or Yes, a very good brownie. Alright, so this is this idea of Who am I? Which is you know um I work a lot with people around the idea of their authentic self of taking masks off of getting into their most conscious self. But really essentially that's an age old question about who am I. And I would propose we not only do we need to know who that is, but our life and our body and our relationship to ourselves and others need to reflect the answers to Who am I. So who am I? I propose to you a possibility one that is life changing and its potential. You are much more than your human self. You are not just alive. You are alive Nous. You are not just present.

You are presents. You are not merely aware. You are awareness. Mm hmm. So that for example, I am connected to nature at a level when I know that to be true That I'm a human form of life energy. But but not an exclusive form of life energy. I have a different relationship to nature. It's either. Mm hmm. And so it throws such a wide net. It throws the net about how we can experience others who are different than us. It's kind of back to that work that we all are intrinsically worthy. And um that whatever sources me kind of is me, it's very different than a traditional religious kind of more Western religion where a sense of spirituality or or spirit or God is outside of ourselves. So that's that's a premise of this book of just just working with that. I don't I do not use the word God in the book. I don't I do have an aspect of wakefulness on finding your own spiritual path if you do not have one within a traditional kind of context.

But And now you know, help me understand this. Not using God in the book. But um you are alluding to some sense of a higher power. Yeah. And I, you know. Um so basically we'll just read a notable paragraph from this this powerful realization. Um so to help understand this possibility, imagining traveling upstream to the Wellspring of your existence asking the question Who am I take you to where it all starts when you arrive at the headwaters of the stream at the source of your being. A truth awaits that would ever source to you is you it lives and breathes as you this powerful realization means that beyond your name, History, personality and choices. You are part of something much bigger than your individuality. What emerges from this discovery is a new expanded sense of self one that is boundless in nature.

Even though it is bound to a body and brought to life on your human journey to say it directly, we can call the source of life. God higher power consciousness or love. If it is easier to go a more scientific route, perhaps you can define the sources, the innate intelligence that has been explained by SAGES throughout history and verified by quantum physics. Ultimately the words don't matter what matters, is the realization that you are innately part of what created you? Hmm wow, I love that. I love that. That it it just makes it so limitless. Mm hmm. And it really attends to where again there is just great human suffering, That sense of separation, separation from whatever. Again we want to call whatever word today love consciousness, source. But each other in that right, wow. Oh my God. Which feels so important right now on the planet. So it's so there's such individual that there is such separation and mothering.

Um that is um this feels like just the medicine without getting into kind of a religious, what you know what we do with this idea right now. How does that you know from a spiritual standpoint? Um for you personally, like how do you kind of incorporate this? Well, it radically, um I'll tell you a story about how this came to be known to me rather than um intriguing and compelling and something I wanted to believe. So I was raised in a presbyterian environment, which was actually super friendly, like I never felt traumatized, um I could go to church or not go to churches or some of my my the greatest, not great. Well, yeah, they were just great childhood memories, so there was no trauma, their problem. Um but it still was this paradigm that I'm a visual separate being and God, whatever that is, it's outside of me and I was introduced to what's called non dualistic teachings through a spiritual teacher and and kind of following into some Eastern philosophy stuff, but it still was kind of this idea of it, It hadn't like landed in my body the felt experience of this and I was actually in a moment of great pain at, at the time, lived in a different place than I live now and I had a meditation room and had a really challenging relationship with my mom and I was triggered by, I just seen her and I went home and I just kind of lost it.

And so this wasn't sitting and meditating and getting calm. This was a deeply, deeply emotional moment for me and I had a kind of like, it was like they talk about like this realization because I felt this love inside of me that I had never accessed that, that was like this sort it was like instead of um, you know, needing to go outside of me for love and and just in that moment kind of connection, I discovered that within me, in in probably one of the most painful moments of my life other than when I attempted suicide at 16 and I felt like I was different after that every, I saw everything I could feel that we were all and animals connected in this way. I had never felt and known before. So it was not something that happened at a class or going to church or even on a retreat.

It came absolutely out of blue, out of the blue to have this sense to have an understanding of these teachings that I had introduced myself to. So it was life changing. And so when I then think about my relationship to myself, there's a human Catherine and then there is this larger part of my existence that's they're available to me within me, I don't have to go outside of myself for that. And so this idea of we're kind of an instrument of love, whatever form that takes in our life. We have a role as a parent or a partner in my work as a friend. Again, I'm I'm being sourced and can then be that instrument um itself. So that's kind of how I got there. That was my spiritual journey in terms of this being um kind of near and dear to my heart, wow. Oh my God, I'm just like, um, um, you keep dropping wisdom amazing.

A larger part of me that's within me, that's so powerful. It's everything I think it can take us sexually to, you know, I don't even know what's on the other side of death. But, and I do know this body will die and I know I will be very, very sad because I have an incredible life and I know that there is, it is just uh whatever that you know beyond is and I kind of like the idea of keeping it a mystery just letting it be known that it's, it's expansiveness, then again, it can settle our whole system. I mean there's even a kind of therapy that's based on the fear of death. That, that is how we organize as human beings and certainly our medical system. And it's just so we don't face again, that kind of radical acceptance of this and that inevitability because we're done. We're final, we as we know ourselves to be, it's over. But if you have an identity of what we are speaking of, uh Catherine in human form is gone.

Um, but, but again, we can maybe imagine that there is uh, that life energy swirling in lots of other places. Um, yeah, that are almost, I mean like for me just through my own energy work and stuff. I know exactly the feeling you're talking about. And um yeah, it just I love this idea notion of you know expansiveness beyond just our little physical selves. Yeah. And this and that was how Sue the book actually came to be because I I am not identified. I don't put myself out there as a spiritual teacher I wanted because where we get hung up with this idea is the mind or we get hung up in this idea because we've been conditioned to have to have a certain kind of body.

And so it's it's applying this, this what exactly we're speaking of to our human life so that we can stay in that expansiveness all the way through everything that I could imagine. That was hard. Whether it's relationships are death. Again, our body dealing with the contents of our mind. Yeah. Because it's hard, it's it's very hard to stay in that sense of remembering who we really are. Um And and feeling experiencing that expanded Nous mm hmm mm hmm mm hmm. And how what is something practical you can suggest for people to start kind of tapping into this? Well, I, I think a way of being um I guess what's popping in right now is a mindfulness and quieting. Um it might not be like a strict meditation practice. It doesn't have to be that that's not what I do I have done. But I do more daily shorter meditations. Um if this is true Sue then as it sounds like for you, there will be a resonance if we can have opportunity to really let this speak to us in our own life in our own life.

So the for example, in nature, um, I am not a biologist but in the chapter I just um could see nature's spirituality or learning from animals and animal have animals have intelligence. Is that we are sometimes not practiced at. And so and they are not human. And so this idea of that was an easy bridge for me around that sense of form that the human form is only one form of this kind, the consciousness we're speaking of. So I would, I would encourage people to go to what, where can they feel that within For parents for example, if if there's a sense that my child is so perfect. Not perfect. Perfect by our old ideas of it, but just innately good and innately worthy and enough. And like it breaks you open to like, oh my God. Then that's the bridge toward this kind of expansiveness about who we really are.

Mm hmm. Where would you go? Where where is it through? Energy work? That that that helps you tap into what we're speaking of that lives inside of you. Um you know it is. It's uh So energy work and meditation where, you know, I've learned through some of my own uh teachers and stuff that really it's, you know, I was just listening to dr David Hawkins talking about this kind of meditating on God. You know, when I'm meditating, I'm directing my attention towards um, you know, a higher power or this just connected source. That's right. Oh, and another actually, yes, so beautiful. I in a fun little game I used to play because then I was just like, fun stuff would pop in. It wasn't really true that I didn't believe in, you know, God consciousness, but I would like what if I were like an atheist and every day it's like, okay, a new day show yourself, show yourself and the idea of the serendipity and the and even like when we were speaking again before, I think the recording started, you said how, how's life?

And I said, life has been dynamic. It's been hard. It's been, there have been challenges. There's been some losses, there's been some stuff to face. And yet, and this is christmas, covid family dynamics kind of stuff I can tell you. And I'm 32 years into the family of my Children that I have with my husband, there is such a perfection in every single thing that happened four weeks ago, a perfection. And it was really hard. It was that radical acceptance of this is what's real no sugarcoating it, but in as I could. So what translates for me is a trusting our circumstances in the moment more and more. But we can look every day to see is they're not serendipity happening in our life. Just as a word that people it's kind of not too heavy duty. Uh you know, religious And so that's another maybe getting quiet and being mindful. Like you meditating or maybe it's just really paying attention to where magic is showing up in our life.

Mm hmm. And even in the hard stuff, finding the magic. I actually think that that's the real like to understand that university is actually here from the idea of consciousness moving through us. And it's always on our side. You know, when we get triggered when hard stuff shows up. That's how it has to come up before it can move out. So if we want to really be free, we've got to walk that we've got to walk through that you've got to feel to heal. And so it's not fun to be triggered. It's not fun to miss a holiday. It's not fun to wonder where our relationship is. But the very nature of that movement is movement for our greater good. And I'm teaching that all the time as a therapist. Not like yeah, let's go get triggered this week and have a really hard week because we want to suffer or we enjoy misery. But as you are in those moments if you can truly have that frame of reference that this is here to serve you this idea. It's not just happening to you. It's happening through you And ultimate Maybe this is happening for you.

Which is this ultimate Endgame. That's a different way to have a hard day. Mm hmm. Now, you know what I think is so remarkable. I know you take this very holistic approach in your therapy and I just love that because you're offering healing, you know, versus were kind of more conventional therapy. It's like you you go and I'm not trying to knock therapy here. But you know, there's that therapy where it's like, okay, you go, you pour your heart out, you cry. And the therapist is they're listening. And then it's like, okay, same time next week and there really isn't, You know, I'm kind of like, you walk out and you're like, wait, my session is over. I'm not lying. Yeah. Exactly. And you know, when I went, uh, this was a second career for me and I was happily in public health and you know, making a good living and had benefits. And then the call from the University of retreat was like, you need to be a therapist.

I'm like, oh, what? Because there was another masters. It was like going home with the kids that were still young enough to be raised and like changing our lifestyle and wondering if there would be a market out there or all the things um and realizing through this and I don't want to diss on therapists either, but I really didn't get the help Mostly that I needed. I started therapy at 16 after that suicide attempt and they were kind people and they did listen and they cared and and that certainly contributed. But nobody was helping me with the part of me That didn't know she was worthy at 14 year old. No one was helping me understand that the belief systems based on what I had, I could actually build a new brain. And 20 years ago when I went to school the the neurological research, they didn't know, no one knew that. So therapy was often about you're not alone and and somebody's empathetic and it feels better, but you're not changing the brain and now we know good, good deep work is changing the brain, but I would I tell my clients, let's be explicit about that, what are we changing?

What, what are we um how can you walk away and say like something is different, even if it was a really hard session. Um Yeah, so I I think the whole field has been kind of blown apart in a good way with neurological research to say this isn't just feel good talk therapy, it can it doesn't always, but it can um absolutely build those new neural pathways we need and we experience ourselves in life truly differently um at a neurological level. Yeah, wow, that is, so, I mean, that's just such powerful work that you're doing with people. Thank you, you know, because people we get stuck, but to be able to, you know, sometimes we don't see it on our own, but to have someone like you, they're kind of offering this perspective where I can walk away and say, you know, be left thinking about that and really contemplating. Yeah, Yeah.

Well, and you know, people will come in in a lot of my practice, not necessarily coming in for any kind of spiritual um component to the work that we're doing and that's why I like playing with the words because to me, um it doesn't really are most conscious self, our higher self, what is that consciousness? Um that's what we're all speaking of. And so I kind of feel like an artist where yeah, I just use the color of paint somebody, you know, how the language and and and the the venue that resonates for them, but it's it's ultimately about getting again to this core question, these core questions of Who am I and um and then, you know, often people will just kind of take it on from there um into areas we never ever expected when they first came in. Mm, wow, that is amazing. Now, you know, you had mentioned another excerpt that you were going to read, We didn't get to that, but I do, I mean we have time.

So okay, well this is so pertinent to what we're speaking of. Uh So we can use the universe is also an idea of that consciousness or God or spirit. Um and this is in my little section on intrinsic worth. So only the uh lead it with a paragraph that I write as you um as you affirm your worth. And I kind of introduced this idea to that If we're not careful, I believe that I'm unworthy will actually look for confirmation in my life. Our mind works that way. It's very frightening prospect. But we can also then have confirmation bias towards what is actually true. Um This is about just kind of hearing this from the universe to you. A poem to use you from the universe as you are says the universe after you answer As you are says the universe before you answer As you are says the universe when you answer as you are says the universe.

How you answer as you are says the universe why you answer Because you are happening now right now right at this moment and you're happening is beautiful. The thing that both keeps me alive and brings me to my knees. You don't even know how breathtaking you are as you are says the universe through tears. Mm wow! Oh my God yes, naive ra N A Y Y I r h wahid. And if we can lift that how much just love would flow towards ourselves, How much peace that we would not need to change and answer any of those questions when after before how to just sink into that. Mm hmm, wow, that was so beautiful.

Now. You know, for you like allowing kind of these things to come up and to be shared with the world. Um how does that come up? Like I know you know this I'm like at a loss for words here after that. But you know, allowing kind of the love to flow, you know, through us allowing us, you know, uh in some anti racism work I've been doing. Uh, there's a gentleman who wrote a book called in my grandmother's hands and he's a trauma specialist himself. And he he he's he's a therapist. And he was saying in in one of the chapters, you know, I approaches are good. You know, we can all come to this work bringing different um kind of strategies and approaches that are that can be transformational, he said.

But you know what I really at the end of the day now after all these years, people come to me because of my presence. And because now as a black man, I have a subtle body and it it feels like this transmission suit that um as my dad said before he passed, he was a therapist and I said, what's what's the trick dad? Like what's it? And he said you just love him cat. And so I'll do all the things in the room. But ultimately su it is it is truly and experience of love. And sometimes love is in the form of I'm going to challenge a client. And they can feel that if I really love them, if I truly am with them, they can hear that's, you know, a challenge or a question or an inquiry. So, it isn't like, la la love. It's fierce love. It's real love. It's honest love. And um I so I I think it brings it all in of just how we uh you know what our practices of self love and other love and loving existence in this place we call home, what that can look like in our lives.

So, sometimes, you know, loving somebody is I'll just let them see my tears about the pain that they have rather than have an idea of professionalism where I'm not going to be human in this moment with you. That's that's what's happening. That's how the love comes through. That's how they know they're not alone. Sometimes. It's talking to that little kid inside of them of like, I know that kid is okay. You don't know that kid is okay. You're pretty, pretty critical of that little guy. Um but I'm gonna have to right now for a minute and go connect in with that young, injured part of you. And then so, again, you can hear that there are very important therapeutic interventions But that where this is coming from is ultimately a practice of love and what that medicine in that moment needs to be mm And now, you know, you are just a pro at this. And it's just I mean the way you just speak of it, there's so much awareness, there's just so much love resonating in your voice.

So how do we get there? Like how do we become as loving as you? Oh, soo it's such a great And you know, I thank you for your feedback because I worked really hard for it. And I'm going to really receive that as love from you. And I think receiving love as part of how we practice love um as love moves in all directions is one idea to have? You know, we can only love others and be an instrument of love in the world. To the extent that we love ourselves. Just like any other correlation. I can only practice non judgment with others To the extent I am not judging myself. I can only empathize to have have that emotional availability to somebody I love to the extent that I can offer my own compassion and empathy to my own emotional states. So, it's not about narcissism, It's not selfish. But it really starts within ourselves.

And again, like you started with a really practical question today. So what's the practical part of that? Let's start with self talk, Let's talk about what you're doing the rest of this day And is the source are their loving gestures towards yourself or even the Chester's themselves, are they coming from fear or love and growing our capacity to love within ourselves? Then again, understanding this is actually neurology uh is like it just wants to move out. It will be it's organic to do So the more I love myself generously, the more that generosity is a cup that that's suppose over. Mm hmm, mm wow. So um what is this has been another amazing conversation. I know it's been so great. Yes, but I want to do it again. So we're gonna do it again. I hope okay, What I you know, what is your message for us for 2022 or now for those stuck struggling anything he'd want to leave us with uh um I guess especially in these times that um for many people I feel uncertain and difficult and scary like what's changing um what we are speaking of is the ultimate foundation of of life um and to just um stay true to this energy and truth that lives inside of us and have time dedicated towards that because we go out into the world and it isn't a world that is necessarily in remembrance of this and recognize this and so the world isn't a bad place to be but I think being really thoughtful about our inner world as we are in outer world places and environments, it can make a huge difference.

So in terms of this, our own year of how to bring our greatest good come forward and contribute to others. Starting with loving ourselves, remembering our intrinsic worth and seeing where we're caught in doing an intervention there. Maybe it's our body, maybe there's a relationship that's fraught. Um maybe I'm not in right work. Find a place to practice making your unconscious life more conscious. That was kind of long. But there you go. That was amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're such a light. I'm so honored. And I don't like you. You're so welcome. This has been fantastic. And um I just so appreciate our connection. So it's so natural to speak with your excellent facilitator interviewer, conversationalist. So do know that that the flow that happens between us is greatly to your credit.

And I'm super choosy. Not in a in a better than way, but just the podcast I'm on with the time that I have available and I would just I am honored to be here and would be happy to come back and help all the people that you are connected to. Oh my God, thank you so much. That just was a means so much to me. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Mm hmm