Mhm. Hello and welcome to the blossom, your awesome podcast episode number 42 today on the show. Lori Singer Lori is a psychotherapist and behavior analyst. She is also the author of You're not crazy living with anxiety, obsessions and fetishes. I am so honored and delighted to have Lori here sharing her insight, wisdom and expertise with us. Lori, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Oh I'm so excited to have you here. I'm gonna say we start with your background, how you got into this line of work. Okay. Um that's a long story but I'm going to get started. So um I had no intentions of actually going to college and opening up my own practice and writing or writing a book or doing any of the things I did actually um I thought I was going to be working at a grocery store the rest of my life and raising a family.

However, my son at the age of two got cancer and passed away and the experience of being in the hospital with him and other families made me realize that I wanted to help other families in some way. Unfortunately I was never a good student in school because I was never diagnosed with a learning disability and or a. D. H. D. So I barely graduated high school. So I was concerned about how how would I go about returning to school at the time? I I've always, I was a runner and I've been running since then and the the coach from the local junior college asked me to run on the cross country team at that time, our daughter was five years old when Jacob passed away at two and um I decided okay what the heck I might as well give it a try. And when I went back to school, what I did was I applied my techniques for training for a race to studying academics and it worked really well for me, I had to work super hard but I ended up graduating knocks our college valedictorian attending U.

C. L. A. Um graduating from UC santa Barbara and then continuing my education, getting my masters and licensed as a marriage family therapist and later I went back and got board certified and applied behavioral analysis um so you can see that I really didn't have a plan, I kind of went along and just my intentions were to help other people and that's what I've done and now I have my own company, 25 employees were serving over 100 families in the ventura county area that have developmental disabilities implementing behavioral and cognitive behavioral therapy techniques wow that is amazing. Now let me ask you a question because you know, so you had a learning disability. Yeah I still I still do well so what do you make of that because I know that you know there's so much stigma around stuff or there was more so in the past right like kind of coming out of that but what do you make of that?

So you are kind of like you have this learning ability, you have this thing happened to you and what was that that kind of pushed you too say hey you know what I'm gonna become, I'm going to go to school and I'm gonna get through this and I'm gonna do this like how did that kind of you know come together? Well I think you know along the way well the coach for cross country was very very supportive and I I guess I have like a positive energy so he made me team captain and um for me that was a big boost as far as my self worth so to speak. And and then when I was when I applied the techniques to training for a race and I applied those to academics and I was getting A's and I thought oh my gosh I can do this. I was just never taught I'm a visual learner this is what I need to do to be successful.

And I just did it on my own. I was very lucky that I that I got into training um for athletic events because otherwise I I would have been lost. And these same techniques are really used for individuals with a. D. D. Or A. D. H. D. Uh to help with their executive functioning skills or organizational skills because that's what it is. You know learning to break tasks down into smaller chunks and learning that and then moving on. Hmm. Now I just I think it's so prolific what you shared here lori because it's like the coach kind of really you know that was that like you can do it. I believe in you. Exactly. Exactly. And there was other you know there was another professor at Oxnard College. He was the english teacher and I mean when I went into his class I had to take you know I call it baby math and baby english.

Because I like I said I would have failed high school. I hadn't moved to Wisconsin and then come back. But he really was the same way as the coach. You know like you can do this and don't set your sights on just a local college university. When you leave here apply to U. C. L. A. Give it a try. You can do it and kind of encouraged me and mentored me and took me under his wing and when you run into people like that in your life it makes a huge difference. Mm hmm. Yeah. And now this is kind of I mean it's similar to therapy right? In a way where we're stuck. We're struggling. We don't think we can overcome or get through it. But then you have the support of somebody like yourself and you kind of show people a way out of the grief and suffering and depression or. Yes I that's 100% correct. And the fact that you can see the results because I could see that the grades were reinforcement for me that I guess I'm, you know, I guess I'm not as I don't want to say dumb or stupid, but really that's what I thought of myself growing up.

I had a horrible, I didn't think I could learn anything. My spelling is still horrible, but thank goodness for spell check. Um, you know, but I never felt confident in myself and receiving those grades made me feel confident. And that confidence and self worth can go a long way. Mm hmm. Now tell me, let's talk about one of your things is you believe and I've heard this before through stuff I've read and other psychotherapists and people, you know, professionals, I've talked to that we have these deeply seated childhood issues that we kind of carry with us. And how does that kind of play out? So is that kind of the case for most adults like where we just carry stuff and we never really, you know, do the work to kind of heal and let that go. Yes. And I think too, especially with my generation because I'm in my 60s, you know, nothing was ever diagnosed nothing.

You know, you were just sent to the principal's office. Um, I, and, and by that I grew up in a home where my mom was an alcoholic and a drug addict and she left our family when I was only 10. But at the time I was actually relieved because of all the drama that she um that she exhibited in the home and in the neighborhood. It was really embarrassing. And after I wrote the book, I had a friend that I had gone to elementary school with and he purchased it. He lives in London and he wrote me afterwards and he said, Laurie, I sat next to you in class and I had no idea that this was happening to you. So, um, you know, I think now it's people are getting kids the help that they need and teachers are seeking out therapist even or reaching out to the parents or seeing what they can do. But again, back then nobody really did anything.

And so I grew up being the oldest daughter and then I had an older brother and a younger sister. And my dad was left to raise three kids and working full time. And so you can imagine the chaos in our house. But um, I didn't have, I didn't deal with any of that until after my son's death. And even after his death, I never really dealt with his death until I got into graduate school and they had said to me, you know, if you go to therapy, Your 10 hours will count as 100 hours towards your internship. And to me that sounded like a good deal. So I went to therapy for the first time in my life and I was explaining to the therapist the background of my childhood being raised in a home of an alcoholic parent and drug addict and also the death of my son. And she looked at me like you've experienced a lot of trauma in your life.

And I was thinking, oh really? So I had and then is when I started having the panic attacks and because everything raised to the surface, I had shoved everything down for so many years and what I tell my clients when they come to see me, I'm so glad that you came to see me because at some point in your life this would have it would have come out, exhibited itself some way in a maladaptive behavior where whether it's drug use or risky behavior sexually or you know, poor relationships and now that we can deal with it and move on. Mm Okay. Now I find this so fascinating what you just shared, like the fact that your son, you didn't really because you grew up with this kind of trauma. So you're used to kind of pushing stuff down, right? And then, so this is kind of the case for all of us or most of us right? Where we have stuff and we just kind of bury it.

We don't deal with it. And then more stuff happens. And we kind of learn how to just kind of push that stuff aside and not really, you know, face it, not, not deal with it, not examine it, not allow yourself to feel the emotions in it and it was difficult, you know, things have changed so much now, so when my mom had left us, I know my dad tried one time to take me to therapy, I think he tried to take all of us and we were so rude to the therapist and we were not going to go back and and you know, it was enough for my dad just trying sure, trying to um manage, working full time and getting dinner ready and you know, organizing the house and all of that. So he he never brought us back to therapy. Um and now I would, you know, I'm working with other kids who have come from divorced homes and are dealing with anxiety. But then even when my son passed away, there was nothing for the parents, there was no support groups, there was, it was just like you left the hospital and that was it and now it's so different and I'm, you know, I'm I'm proud to say to that, what a positive thing that came out of my son's passing and and you know, when it's fresh and new that they pass away, of course, you don't think that anything some people would say, you know, oh, they died for a reason or this happened for a reason and you're thinking, what reason could it be to watch your child suffer like that.

But I look back at um a few months after he passed away, I had read the book when bad things happen to good people. And it's an excellent book written by a rabbi whose son passed away at a young age. And he had said what stuck out in my mind was do something to memorialize your son, whatever that is. And since I was a runner, my friends, we got together and I said I'm just going to have a fun run in his name and all the money is going to go to Children's hospital, but it's going to go to the playroom because when my son was in the hospital there were, my daughter would come on the weekends, my husband and I lived there and um she would come and there would be nothing for her to play with. There would be like a mr potato head with one eye and an ear, that's it. And so we decided at that time let's let's not put the money into research, let's by all the kids on that floor, toys for the playroom. And we just had our 36th annual event in memory of my son. And we actually were able to uh start a child life program at Children's hospital.

And it's just an amazing room where the kids can go, siblings can go. It's dr free, it's full of technology and toys and just fun things for the kids to do and therapy. So I Love that. That is so amazing, Lori and I see that. I know, I think you've raised $350,000. Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah, it's probably a little more than that because we had done it for 10 years before Children's Hospital reached out to us. We just kept sending them checks and we had this, this was before we had an endowment made. And what happened was on the 10th year, we had shirts made and I thought, oh, it's a 10 year anniversary of our fun run. I'm gonna have shirts made and we'll put the logo on the back and then Children's hospital called me and they said, have you been having an event and you know, in your son's name? We're getting all these checks every year. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm in trouble for using their logo, but they just wanted to acknowledge that and start an endowment.

And so we've been working hand in hand ever since, wow, that is so remarkable. That truly is just um, so amazing. Well, it's a, it's a fun event. It's just a community event and I remember years ago I was approached and said, you know, lori, you could make this a really big event if you just do this and this. And and I thought, you know what, I want to keep it small. Whoever wants to come can come if you don't want to come and you want to send a check, that's fine too. It's all donation based and uh it's worked out well, we have um a band that plays every year. We have some people that just like to participate and sing and and it's fun, it's just a fun thing. Mm I love that, Laurie, I I just I really commend you, I think that's so beautiful and so powerful to have, you know, turned this into what you turned it into. So that's amazing. Um now, you know, talking about your book, you're not crazy living with anxiety, obsessions and fetishes.

So this was um what was this like for you? I mean was this a healing journey for yourself? You know, first and foremost and then we'll get into the book. Um you know, interestingly I throughout the years I've had a lot of doctors office pediatricians and dermatologists refer clients to me and they had said, you know, lori you're you have such a great success rate. We love referring clients to you, Have you ever thought of writing a book because you could help a lot of people? And so that seed was planted in my head probably about 15 years ago. The timing was never right. Uh you know, there's always something going on in life. And finally in, in 2020 january 2020 I turned 60 years old and I'm very goal oriented. So I set a goal for myself. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew how I wanted to arrange the book. I knew what I wanted to put in there and how I wanted to help people.

So the next thing was to, to set a goal for myself, and that's what I did. And I was able to put together the book and it's interesting because the first chapter talks about myself and my own anxiety and um kind of what brought me to the anxiety and like we said before, I said, it was it was kind of talking about my childhood and my son not realizing what a traumatic event it was. Um, and then in the back of the book, I put a workbook so that people, I could use this on their own, They don't have to come to see me. But these are the techniques I use in my office and in my therapy. So I wanted to I wanted again to help people and that's why I wrote it. Mm I love that. Now, Lori let me ask you, what is um what is your take on, kind of, we're letting go of stigma around, you know, depression and these mental, you know, health issues.

But are you finding like, okay, there are so many more people than we ever thought dealing with this, Right? So it's kind of this like, well there's way more people than we thought, but it's a good thing because we're now having less stigma around it. Yes. And I think too, it's, it's just been such an influx of clients. I can't tell you. And I don't, you know, I attribute some of it to the pandemic of course. Because a lot of the school age Children, um, you know, from 5th grade on to actually graduating colleges have had to change their social interactions and the way that it has impacted them has been very traumatic for them. But now we're trying to move out of that and we're, I'm still seeing the anxiety linger on. And I don't know if it's like you said that there's less stigma attached to it.

So more people are seeking therapy or was it always there? But they weren't seeking it. I don't know. I guess there would have to be a study done to find that out. But I do know that some of my adult clients, young adult meaning from 18 to 20 are more likely to recommend therapy to their friends. And I think that's a good thing too because they can see the success in themselves, you know, and they feel good about themselves and they want their friends to feel that way too. And I think that's a good thing. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think, and tell me, you know, if I'm right in this, like you said earlier now it's because there's less stigma. So now we're kind of facing stuff rather than letting it just kind of idle for 20 years. So now when I, if I go through something traumatic, hey, maybe I do need to reach out to a therapist versus oh, let me just brush this off and I, and I think you're right on that.

And what's interesting I find is that a lot of the parents didn't recognize in a lot of cases, they don't recognize that their child is even experiencing anxiety and that's interesting because everybody experiences a different way. Um you know, some of the parents will break down in my office and say I had no idea this was going on and um so I don't, then they start to blame themselves like wasn't my parenting, what did I do wrong? But you can't really blame yourself as a parent. You just have to learned, I think to, you know, communication skills, I work on a lot of communication skills because kids feel guilty. They don't want parents to blame themselves either. So you have to learn the parent who's older has to relearn how to communicate and they have to be open minded and if they're not, then I have to work with the young adult and say, okay, this is your parent, you can't change somebody else's behavior, you can only work on your own and they're okay with that.

It just doesn't always work out the way that you like, but you just have to make do with what you have, Right? And now what are some signs? Are there some kind of very, I know, like, you know, it's different for everybody, but let's say you're a parent and you think your kid is depressed or having some sort of, are there some kind of very obvious signs or things at which point you say, okay, this is serious, I need to get my child or loved ones. Them help. Yes. Well, there's some overt signs that you can see. Uh and and that would be if you have a talkative child and now they're they've been quiet, you know, um they're not talking to their friends, they're staying more in their room. Um they might say something like I feel hopeless or I'm, you know what, why should I try anyway? It doesn't matter. I'm just gonna fail. So a lot of negative self talk. Um and then also I would say any change in their behavior that isn't it, that is out of the ordinary, whatever that might be, you know, with younger kids, it's typically something that is physical, They have a stomachache, they don't want to go to school.

Um or that could even be with a teenager or they have a lot of headaches or they stop participating in activities. Um you want to look for those signs and it's really important for the parent to open up a dialogue, don't be afraid to sit down and say, you know, I'm really concerned? Um let me know. Is there anything that we can talk about or do you would you like me to make an appointment for somebody that you can talk to? So I think just addressing it and not pretending like it's nothing you know parents that don't pay attention they're too busy in the day and they have too many things to do and they notice it but they feel like oh it's not a big deal. I'm sure they're going to be fine. That's not that's not the case. You need to open up a dialogue and start a conversation now. So that's really I think so powerful. Um It's so simple but it's so I can imagine just overlooked right because you're kind of in denial yourself or you don't want to confront that now.

Um your book Laurie you're not crazy living with anxiety, obsessions and fetishes now. Is there a powerful way to live with anxiety? There is so um anxiety is interesting. Um Sometimes the you know well like O. C. D. Behavior creates anxiety. Um and by that I mean you know obsessive compulsive behavior. We become obsessed with the fact that we want to perform some type of a behavior and um if we don't engage in that behavior it creates anxiety but the the behavior that we want to engage in could be very maladaptive. It could be skin picking which can be horrible behavior in in in and by that. I mean it can be disfiguring. I've had clients that come in and that have actually disfigured themselves because of that behavior and anxiety?

It just takes on a life of its own. And you know what's interesting is the past year I would say the past year I have five clients who are close to 80 years old. So imagine living your whole life with anxiety or O. C. D. Or anxiety which is attached to the O. C. D. And not being able to sit down and try to figure out a way to resolve it. Um It's it's interesting and and just to say that they're all doing really well right now and I'm extremely happy about that. A lot of them feel sad because they know that they've lived their whole life for most of their adult life with all of this anxiety and haven't been able to shake it off and now that they can now and then you know and now they can do it on their own. Um But we have to move past that. You know, you can't look at I should have, I should have done this. I should have done that anxiety is something that starts off very small and then creeps into other areas of our life.

And I tell my my clients, you know you anxiety becomes a problem when it starts to become debilitating if it's affecting your work? Is it affecting your social life? Are you not having fun anymore? Is that anxiety has just taken over your life? Mm hmm. And now, So the first obvious step is it sounds like, I mean, I know I've been to therapy myself and it can be very powerful and empowering and liberating. So is that kind of first step really is just kind of acknowledging confronting it? It is. And you know what's interesting um as well as when people come into my office, it's as if they think they're the only ones that are experiencing this and that they're kind of an anomaly. And so I try to normalize it and let them know that anxiety is prevalent in everybody. I it's you know, I have, I've had physicians come in pilots come in professionals.

So it's not something that is just to one, one area of the population. And and so the first thing is to kind of normalize what they're going through and let them know that my book is organized in a way where I take, I think there's six case studies and they it takes you what it looks like when you come into my building, What we talked about in the office for the first time, how I try to involve family members or loved ones in the therapeutic process because they play an intricate role as well, whether it's a spouse or a mom or a dad. Somehow they've contributed to this anxiety if they have been abled it or whatever the case may be. So they may have their own treatment plan. Um, and then the client has their own treatment plan. So the book kind of walks you through the steps of what it looks like, what their treatment plan looks like and what the outcome was.

Okay. I really love this. This is so different than other types of therapy because generally it's just like you have your issue and maybe it's caused by your mom or dad or siblings or whatever and you go to therapy and you deal with it. But that person is kind of still there. So I love that we're incorporating other people to kind of, that's so amazing. I love that. It is extremely helpful and um, I think too that, you know, it's, it's solution focused and it's not like typically when people come to see me, they, I would say 70% have already been to therapy but it has been ineffective and um I always say, well, what worked for you, what did you, what kind of strategies or tools did they give you? And they might say, well we talked about it and then we did some deep breathing in the office. Well that's much different than what I do because I actually write a treatment plan.

I put it in a binder. I make all family members accountable. Um they have to check off, you know what, what they've done, what I've asked them to do and they have to practice outside of session. They have to practice when they're not anxious. And I use, um, an example of, You know, if you signed up for a 10K. race and you didn't run at all and then you showed up on race day, how could you run the race? So that's like telling somebody okay, you have anxiety. So when you get anxious to take some deep breaths, well, how can, how can they do that if they haven't practiced when they're not anxious? Uh, you know, so they, I want them to practice their strategies, their techniques, um, when they're not with me. So that they, when it is in the moment, the other family members can encourage them and remind them to use the strategies as a coach kind of, you know, and then they can utilize what we've been working on. Wow. Um, and, and now part of your methodology or you are a cognitive behavioral therapist.

Right. So this is, is that correct? Well, I'm, I'm a licensed psychotherapist but I specialize in cognitive behavioral therapy and, and behavioral therapy. So I think it's important. I'm not sure what you're gonna ask, but I think it's important when you go to therapy to find out what modality your therapist is using. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I will just say for me personally, I mean, I've been to therapy where I needed and this is just now through my own research and learning and better understanding where it's like, okay, this is more psychological. So I needed to kind of, I needed the cognitive behavioral stuff versus someone saying, hey, you have anxiety and here's some uh, here's a band aid or you know, essentially some medication to drink. And you know, a lot of my clients when they come in, they don't want to be on medication. They say that as a last resort and I say, you know, well we can try it without medication lets you know, you know, you're an active part in this.

And I didn't, I did forget to mention that. Um when we do come into session, you give me a background of, you know, the presenting problems a lot of times. They can't even pinpoint when it started, but once they start to talk to me, I can kind of connect the dots. And then I give you data sheets. It's an abc data sheet and a seat behavior and consequence. I show them how to fill it out and then they bring it back to me the following week or two weeks later and we analyzed the data together. So from that data and the information you gave me is how I write the treatment plan. And I do think, you know, we we get a thought in our head that thought creates emotions for us. Those emotions are exhibited through our behavior. They come out as are we happy? Are we sad? Are we confused? And what do we do with those feelings? How how is it exhibited? Is it exhibited in um skin picking? Is it exhibited in where we shut down?

Um, you know, just different, different ways. So I'm not sure if I answered your question. No, that did. Absolutely. And I know it's it's different for everybody obviously. But yes. And now let me ask you, is there? So what is, what are some practical tips, practical guidance if let's just say I'm maybe not ready for therapy, but I'm harboring resentment or pain or holding on to. There's something some sort of grief or trauma that I went through in the past that I know I haven't really worked on. I want, I've been telling myself I'm over it for 20 years, they're right. So, but now I'm kind of, I'm evolving, I'm starting to do more of the inner kind of work and now I want to kind of begin to start releasing this. What is something practical that you can offer for us just, you know, to walk away with something to walk away with.

Okay, so what I would say is, um there's something that I use in my therapy sessions and in my binders or treatment plans and it's called the signal plan and it was something that I created when I was going to graduate school and I was doing an internship and I was working with kids, foster kids and we were playing this game in a social skills group where they would have a problem, they pick a card, have a problem, run to first base. Is it safe? Check it out. Okay, go to second base and then you can go home. So what I did was when like I said, when I started therapy, I started to have major panic attacks. I couldn't drive on the freeway. It was horrible. And so my therapist said, okay, you've got to do the deep breathing and you know, try to relax. And I thought, well that's good, but it's not really working. I'm trying to go on the freeway and then I thought, hey, what if I kind of took what I learned in my internship and applied it to when I'm driving but used a signal card.

You know, we all know a signal has three colors red, yellow and green. So if I start to think a negative thought, I need to stop that thought. And what I tell my clients is you have control over your thoughts when they come to see me, they think they don't have control. But you do if you can stop that negative thought like, oh my gosh, I'm getting on the freeway and say, ok, read, I'm going to stop, I need to yellow, that's his next color. I need to make a choice to think positive. I'm going to therapy. I've driven on the freeway before I know I can do this. I know I can do this and green means go. So then I start to do the deep breathing. So I take some deep breaths, use the positive self talk and guess what I'm on the freeway. Mm hmm. I love that. I love that Lori I love the empowerment factor because I do believe that we have control over our own thoughts. We've all gone down that rabbit hole. But I try to spend so much of my time just focused on positive stuff because I know life is gonna throw stuff that at me that I'm going to have to deal with.

So, um, what else now, you know, with these kind of deep seated stuff, what do people need to understand about trauma that they're carrying if what if they don't want to go to therapy? Is there a way to kind of with the deep seated trauma? Yeah, that's a hard one. well that's why I wrote the book. So hopefully everything is in there. My data sheets. I actually have how to write a motivational story in there because I do believe part of my treatment is a motivational story. So the data that you collect or that you take and I collect, I write a motivational story in there. Like, you know, my name is Laurie, I am, Well I'm now 62 I'm 62 years old. I have experienced trauma in my life, but that does not define who I am. I can, I can get over this. I have strategies and, and so you see that story, it's supposed to be read at least once a day.

So it's it's it's building me up. It's reminding me how far I've come. And that anxiety, trauma oecd does not define who I am. Mm hmm. Yeah. And it and and do you find that some people, I mean, okay. I'm assuming, I don't know. But clarify her for me. People, some people may not even know that they have some of these things. Right? Oh, most definitely. I mean, look, when I went into therapy, I didn't know I was stuffing everything down. And you know, I have some clients that come in to see me and they may have been um, you know, molested when they were younger or a horrible traumatic event and they're telling me for the first time they maybe have never told anybody as if it was nothing. And I say, you know, that's not okay. What happened to you. We need to talk about that. And I don't like to dwell on it.

But I do think like you said, it's important to address it so that you can move on and kind of give yourself permission to say you can be mad at that you're not going to let it happen again and now let's move forward. Mm hmm. Now, Laurie so much of what I'm hearing is really resonating for me because it sounds like you have somewhat of a like more of a holistic approach. Right? I mean would you say that? So would you, I try to I do know that in some cases if there uh if they're, if they're, you know, O. C. D. Or anxiety has become so debilitating and I write a treatment plan for them and they're not able to implement it. I try to encourage them to get medication even if it's just for a while because if you're so anxiety ridden that you can't practice these strategies, then it's not gonna work. So sometimes they do have to take medication and I want them to know it's okay once we get this going and you're able to run the plan and you know, use the strategies then we can talk about decreasing it.

Mm hmm. Now what else can we kind of give for two people who are just kind of stuck in a space where you know, there's some sort of shift or something going on in life. Is there something practical um to kind of overcome that or get through the hard stuff? Well, I want them to realize that they're not alone. You know? Um and that's what it comes down to is that people are stuck and they feel that they can't move forward and maybe it's not that they can't but they just don't know how to move forward. So I think giving yourself permission to know that okay. I'm stuck but I'm not alone. I can do this. I can do this. I I may need help but I know that I can do this. Mm hmm, wow. Oh my God, Lori. Okay, so you've been so amazing. This is all such great um guidance and insights and I just love your kind of attitude about not harboring on stuff, but really kind of helping uplift people and encouraging them and letting them know they will get through it.

Well, I've I've enjoyed talking with you and I appreciate you allowing me to be on your show. Oh, you have been awesome. And now I'm gonna have links to all of your stuff. I'm gonna have links to your book to your website for people to be able to get in touch with you. And in closing I'm going to ask what is I know. So, uh you know, you're just doing amazing things out there. You're giving back, you're doing all of this stuff, you're helping people, What is that your wish or hope? What is that message you want to leave us with? I just, you know, we all have days or minutes or hours where we feel down and I just think it's important to practice focusing on something that makes you happy no matter what that is. You know, I know that for me, I still run every day or try to do something which relieves that stress and I think about my grandkids because that's what makes me happy.

I love that Lori. You have been so awesome. I thank you so much for your wisdom and life. Thank you so much. You're more than welcome. Mm hmm. Thank you.