blossom, your awesome podcast, episode number 45 today on the show. Rebecca Divan ero is here with us. She is also known as Dr D Dr dee has worked in higher education for almost two decades with a focus in interpersonal communication. She is the founder of surviving social anxiety dot com. She has developed low cost lessons to help people improve the way they feel about themselves, help them manage their anxiety and develop effective interpersonal skills. I am so honored and delighted to have dr dee here with us today, sharing her wisdom, insights and light. Dr D Thank you so much. Welcome to the show. Hi, I'm very happy to be here and thanks so much for using the moniker Dr D So many people will recognize me by that name instead of Rebecca de janeiro.

Oh, I love it, I love dr d it just sounds so cool, alliteration. Yeah, I really do so and I am so happy to have you here, I'm so excited And so I am going to say we start with a little bit of your background and how you got into this line of work. Sure. Um I uh actually was a journalist, first hated it and went back to graduate school um and while I was there um I got really interested in um learning more about family communication, so I ended up majoring in that I have a Master's in that and then I went and got a PhD because I also discovered that I loved teaching and you have to have a PhD to be able to do that full time. So, um I graduated with my PhD in 2010 in interpersonal and family communication. I mostly focused on step family communication because I was in a step family myself and there were a lot of things that um I thought people could do better um or it was just more important, it was important to spread the word about, I eventually got really sick of studying stepfamilies and switched to studying dating, which is far more juicy, um and oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, I was just laughing at the far more juicy part. Yes, I found out that a lot of my students were watching dating shows, reality dating shows and taking them as 100% truth, and that scared me very much. Um and so I eventually, about five years ago also started incorporating the idea of social anxiety into the research that I did because um I, I have a series of anxiety disorders, if you look up anxiety disorders, basically my faces next to every one of them, but social anxiety wasn't something I really thought about that much because I can get in front of the classroom and teach. I have given plenty of presentations in front of people, but I also found out because of the pandemic that it's possible to do my work without feeling like I have the flu all the time. And part of that is because I'm not in front of people anymore.

So once I realized that that really was an issue for me, I dove pretty deep and I went to a few meetups locally that were first socially anxious folks and have uh, done as much research as I can and talk to as many people as I could about their social anxiety, how it manifests and what we can do to try to manage it more effectively. So that's how I ended up here because I, I think I've done the professor thing long enough and now I would like to be my own boss on top of helping socially anxious people. I love that. Now tell me, so, how does that manifest? What have you found with your work with people and just your expertise and research? Um, the main driver for social anxiety is the fear of being humiliated or embarrassed in front of other people.

So many people with social anxiety will not bother talking at all. Um, and or self isolate, so they're not even near other people. People whether they have to speak or not because if you're not there, if people don't know you exist. It's hard to get humiliated. Um, there is obviously a variety of severity though. Um, you can, excuse me, you can be like me where it's just something you mask your way through. Um, but I would always have a lot of physical symptoms like an upset stomach feeling flu ish and that you can potentially blush or sweat. Um, and a lot of thanks. What keeps that social anxiety going is that you don't necessarily pay attention to everything that's going on in a situation you're so self aware and over self aware that you assume you're doing stuff wrong and you take social cues potentially incorrectly.

So you continue to reinforce that you don't know what you're doing and you shouldn't be around other people. Mm hmm. Okay. Now I have like a million questions. He's done what you said. But tell me now, give us an example of taking social cues incorrectly. Um um um um um, one I would say, let's say you're walking into a get together a backyard barbecue that someone has invited you to when you walk in, it makes sense that if you make any noise when you walk in, everyone's going to turn and look, but someone with social anxiety is going to feel like running away as fast as possible or fainting or um, is going to have a panic attack because they think all of those eyes are staring at them and it means something negative, like people are disturbed by you by your appearance, the fact that you did make noise.

And so that's the sense making component of social anxiety. Um that is, I would say the hardest to break through because if you are always assuming everyone's thinking the worst of you, Then it's really hard to stop physical symptoms or two. Um, to, to just think more positively and see social situations for what they are, which is mostly everyone kind of making it up as they go along because there, there are some subscribes or prescribed social norms, but we still don't all have a script that socially anxious people missed out on. Mm Okay. Now, wow, this is just so fascinating to me. So, I mean we, is it true that we all have some form of anxiety, Is that accurate? Yeah, I would say, um, if someone has thinks that they have absolutely no anxiety, they might suffer from narcissistic personality disorder because all of us question ourselves in some situation, all of us have done things for the first time which can make us really nervous even if you are an adrenaline seeking person, you're still probably a little nervous, You know, when you're in that plane you're about to jump from or talking to someone you like for the first time.

So, um, while some people enjoy the adrenaline that that creates and can move past it, People who are socially anxious end up with so much adrenaline pumping through their veins, they, they can't go forward. Or a lot of times we get told to just, just try, just try to talk and there's so many warning signs coming from our brain that we can't function. So everyone's anxious about something. But socially anxious people fall apart potentially in social situations, wow, Now, you know, this is really, um, so interesting because I think we all assume that, like you said, you are able to speak publicly, you know, to a crowd to your students. And but the social anxiety, that's like a different thing.

And that's so interesting to kind of, you just assume that hey, this person can speak in a public forum, they don't have anxiety, right? Yes. Um, I, I grew up, I'm 40 years old. So I grew up in the age of shut up and just do it no matter how you feel. So that is part of how I dealt with it. I just did it. And then five years ago I was like, should I be feeling this terrible all the time? Um, and so I finally looked into mental health care and it was one of the reasons I was struggling in the ways that I was, even though I could do it, I didn't want to mm hmm. And now, you know what I just love about the work you're doing and what you're sharing is like you say, you know, there was this kind of, just do it and we didn't really talk about mental anxiety or illness or you know, disorders or any of that. It was there was so much stigma around that Even 10 years ago, right? Compared to today.

So what have you found, like, how is that for you as a professional in this industry? Um, about the change over time. Yeah. Just kind of, I mean that's gonna open your kind of, you know, open up so many avenues for you right to kind of be able to more freely express and have your work out there more public and all of that. Yes, definitely. Um It there is plenty of space for people who want to talk about mental health. Um There's so many resources now um that honestly I'm a little worried I won't stand out because there are so many places people who are having issues with anything. Um but particularly social anxiety can go and look for help. Um And so I'm really glad that it's a normal conversation now but of course there's still people who don't believe that it's real or they're just not trying hard enough or people who have parents or guardians who don't believe that social anxiety is really a thing because they grew up in the same era.

I did. So um part of what I consider my job is just helping them have those conversations if that's what it'll take to get them help even if it's not through me. Mm hmm. Okay. And now I see. And I think so I'm just going to say I'm very intuitive dr d and you are going to stand out because your background is just so extensive, right? You have this kind of interpersonal and family communication, you know, like knowledge and know how and that has got to come in handy with helping people with anxiety. That is that is the hope. Um a lot of, a lot of the things that socially anxious people don't understand or partially because they are isolated from communication a lot of the time. Um or they are constantly criticized for the way that they communicate. And so I think that my, my background and communication, which essentially my my philosophy of the world is all rules are socially created.

But a lot of people walk around like they're objectively true is one of the ways that people can start to deal with their social anxiety. There often isn't something your doing wrong if someone criticizes you for wearing the wrong outfit or saying the wrong thing, there may be more socially desirable things but in and of itself if you walk in with some, you know, outdated pants you might get joked around with, but there's not actually anything wrong with that. That's just a social construction. Mm hmm. And now how do we for someone who's got anxiety around this sort of stuff? Oh, am I wearing the right thing? Do I look good? Am I skinny enough? Am I pretty enough, whatever? Right. I mean where do we start with that? How do you get kind of start to turn the corner and see it in a different way? Yeah, it's really difficult. Um it I would say the type of advice I've been giving is to appreciate those things about yourself.

If your, if your goal is to be popular, I probably can't help you. Um and so looking at the exact right way, if sounding the exact right way is a goal, I'm not going to be very helpful, but if finding people who are compatible with you and who will appreciate you however you dress and however you act, um that's more the goal of my business and the advice that I give. Mm okay, this is really interesting because so there's not a way to just I mean, what if I'm someone who's like, you know what, I don't, I want to get to a place, this is so interesting that you're saying, finding people compatible with you, I want to get into that a little more here. But what if I'm like, I want to just be over the social anxiety, like I don't I want to get to a place where I don't care what people think and I'm just confident.

Yeah, that takes some practice too. Because you essentially have to um get used to hearing comments and not caring about them. I find no matter what I wear, how I stand or what I'm doing, someone has the criticism and I have mostly gotten to the point where I just asked them like what's what's the value and you you saying those things, what is it you're hoping to do with your criticism and often times they'll tell me I'm just trying to show you how, how things are supposed to be. And so, um so if you can wrap your mind around the fact that wearing something that doesn't really blend in or acting in a way that doesn't blend in, it's still fine. But you're going to get comments about it. Um then you could move forward I guess pretty quickly.

But obviously there are some things that if you wear or do you're going to potentially get arrested or shot. So I definitely want to help clients find the difference between those two because I don't, you know, want anyone um causing such a, uh, a big deal that any cops are called in or or anyone is physically hurt by the end of whatever that situation is. But if you want to wear a shirt that everyone thinks is really ugly except you wear that shirt but you're going to hear about it. Mm hmm, mm hmm. And now, so finding people who are compatible, what helps us understand that? Um, I used to think and I think because I was anxious, depressed, etcetera. Um that as long as someone was willing to speak to me and spend time with me, then that was what friendship was And I dealt with over and over my friendships kind of dissolving because over time I would realize that they were triggering my anxiety more than they were helping with it.

And that the friendship itself didn't have much value. Um I so about five years ago I kind of cut everybody who was toxic out of my life? I ended up with no people in my life. But I slowly developed friendships. Um just by going to local events. I live in a pretty hopping city. So I went to local events and I made. But the same jokes I usually make. I talk about the same things I usually talk about that I care about like my cat. Um like jim Carrey movies. Um, things that a lot of people thought were odd or annoying. Um But I paid attention to how people reacted. And sure enough, there were a handful of people who found me quirky and silly as opposed to obnoxious. And those people are my friends now. And so, um, I think one of the things that socially anxious people need to understand is that everyone liking you should never be the goal. Um You always of course want to avoid actively hurting anyone emotionally.

You want to avoid um making someone else's day worse. But if you're just being yourself and talking about how cute your cat is and how you love your cat. And people don't respond to that. Then those aren't your people. Mm hmm. That is so interesting to. I kind of consider who your people are versus those who are not because I think sometimes I mean, you know, we have friends that we might have a thing or two in common with. But you know, it's kind of like um well do I feel nervous or am I supported, you know, in all aspects of my life or is this person kind of, you know super fun to hang out with and supportive over here. But kind of jealous about this over here or right. There's a big difference between fun acquaintances that you see once in a while but have no real emotional ties to and close friends who are going to be there for you and vice versa.

Mm mm. Mm. Mm And then obviously with a person, you know, there's a deeper kind of wound that maybe there with someone that you have emotional ties to. Yes, that is the big downside of creating those um close relationships is that they can hurt you much worse than someone you aren't that close with or don't really trust? Mm hmm. And now how does the interpersonal communication? So let's say you've got someone who is difficult. You know, they're not really that open to listening or they're just, it's hard to communicate with this person. It's somebody you have to deal with all the time. And um give us some a little bit of guidance on how to kind of open that dialogue. Well, I would definitely say it depends on the context if you are dealing with a boss who doesn't really listen there's only so much you can do. Um but if it's uh say a family member, someone you have to interact with or someone you want to have a friendship with.

Um, I would literally say those words because I think a lot of people hint and all of us have different perceptions. All of us are thinking different things. We're taught different things about what to look for. Um, in others when there's a problem or when they're having fun. And so I find that polite honesty tends to work best because at best that person will actually hear what the problem is and work on it. At worst they won't care and you maybe don't need that relationship. Mm hmm. So can you kind of tell us, I mean I have a sense of this because I'm a communications major and you know, practice mindfulness and stuff, you know, as a former network, you know journalist. Right? So I majored in mass common journalism and stuff and, and then, you know my mindfulness I try to really be mindful. I mean I'm not perfect. I work on it you know, every day.

But I do try to be mindful of how I approach things. But how what is your advice to that? Like how would that just what would that look like or sound like even like an opening kind of sentence approaching something that's kind of a little touchy or someone who's a little tree. I think um one of the ways to deal with that is to like you said, be more other centered, you're you're paying attention to what the other person might need out of this situation. Um I, I personally am from new york. So I'm pretty blunt, but I try to only be blunt with people who are from the same region. Um it's it's not well liked in the southwest now. So I usually say something um it's it's called the hedge H E D G E where you kind of prepare for the blow before you give it. So if you were talking over me or something, I would say, hey, can I ask you something?

Um I really love hearing about your day. Um but I feel like I might not get as many chances to talk as you. So I was wondering if after you're done with this story, can we talk about something that happened to me today? Mm hmm. So that way you're respecting both yourself and them and being pretty clear. I think about what the problem is. Mm hmm. Yeah. And you know, it really we God everyone just really struggles with this kind of line of communication where you know, people are generally so respected or you know, when you kind of approach it, they're so respectful of that is what I meant when you're mindful, right? It's kind of like being thoughtful and hey, you know, I didn't really appreciate that. But is this are you open to learning a more powerful way? And it's just, you know, there's times when I said that and people are like, wait, what? Like they don't even know like what is that? What did you just say?

What language was that? They're not used to talking to people like that. Mm hmm. You know, And but it goes such a long way. It's like it just really people are so receptive, you know, and open to that line of communication. But because we don't practice it. They and you know this I mean you're the expert here. So it's I think that's so beautiful. That polite honesty. I like that. Now let me ask you. So, you know, anxiety versus depression. Can those do those go hand in hand at any point? Or I mean one can, you know, build upon the other or what are the myths around that like? Right? Like they get kind of crossed. Yeah, they can be a little hard to tell apart. Um if you suffer from social anxiety is most likely that you have co co morbidity or a tide depression to it because if you are socially anxious, you're constantly negative, negatively evaluating yourself.

You're constantly putting yourself down. Um you might feel worthless. And so which one came first? Is is the chicken or the egg question? Um some of us come out of the womb with depression. Um, but generally social anxiety, you might have the brain structure for it. But it can also be created because of your environment. So for instance, I definitely came out of the womb depressed. I remember being sad all the time as a kid, even though my life was pretty decent. Um and so from that, because I already thought of myself negatively, my social anxiety um developed very quickly because I thought anytime someone said something to me, they didn't like me. Or um I assumed the worst. Which made the depression worse. Which made the social anxiety worse. So, um depression and anxiety worked very well together to keep you isolated and sad and uncomfortable.

A lot of situations. Mm hmm. And now, so what is for someone wanting and not knowing where to start? Is there kind of are there some simple tips to kind of beginning to recognize your anxiety and doing better. I know it's a, you know, a process, right? We start with that. Well, that is a question I've been asking myself for a year trying to get my business going like what is the start here? How do you even begin to tackle these issues? And after I've spoken to everyone who exists on reddit and instagram and um reflected a lot on my own issues with both anxiety and depression. Um, I think at the heart of it is all self esteem. Um if you have super low self esteem, you obviously put yourself down, you obviously believe the worst in yourself and you also can easily get um what's the word I'm looking for.

Uh discouraged from bothering. It's it's very easy to say. It's just better if I don't. So my first course that's coming out in about a month and a half is called the self esteem starter, which is hard to say. I probably should have named it something else but more alliteration. Um and we're just going to go through some basic habits to help their self esteem improve with very easy, incremental daily habits. And there are a ton of, of resources out there about habits like journaling and being mindful and yoga and meditation, but someone with really bad social anxiety who also probably overthinks can't just sit and think their brain is their worst enemy. So knowing that um the goal then would be to pay more attention to things people say to you that are positive and maybe considering if those might actually be true.

Um and questioning the negative things you tell yourself or other people tell you because no one is objectively right about any of this. There isn't. Um, people have more literal power or interpersonal power over you, but that doesn't mean they get to dictate who you are and what you do. So a lot of it boils down to getting used to questioning everything. The messages you send yourself and others and figuring out a way to reflect that isn't just incessant self punishment. Mm hmm um wow, okay. So another round of questions, wow, this is so amazing. Now, you know, this is something that's come up. Um for me, not me personally, but with people I know. So is it your um tell me is it true that we have? Because you know, I've heard from people, some people who are maybe take anxiety medicine things to stuff um that you know, it's like, okay, I have this disorder and I can't do it without these meds.

But again, you know, I'm, I'm not a therapist or a psychologist or any of that. But I just believing in the power of the mind and what we're capable of and having had moments and times in life where I've had anxiety or depression but I've overcome it naturally. I truly believe that it's possible. So is that's the case like are there people who just like it's a clinical diagnosis and you have to have meds to treat anxiety or is it possible to be truly treated and overcome and healed and recovered without nets? I think if you're going to do it without meds, you have to figure out how your brain works and how to get around that. Because that's essentially what I think you described, Like you understand yourself enough to be able to get over those problems. Um for me, I I take PROzac, I've been taking it for the past five years and um, I am in no way promoting PROzac.

But for me it is like, um if like I finally get a chance to fight back against the negative messages my brain sends me. So if you are already in a place where you know how to do that then you don't definitely don't need medication. If you think you can figure yourself out um through the resources that are online or services like mine then you don't need to bother getting diagnosed or getting medication. Um I tend to recommend to people that they at least talk to a doctor, they they don't have to take anything they're prescribed. Um But obviously financially people hand, people's hands are tired so there just has to be a way to interrupt the obsessive, negative thinking and whether that's through medication or being able to learn how to be mindful, whatever the avenue is, that's what whatever feels best for you is what you should go for.

But no matter which avenue you take, there's probably a ton of more steps you need before you truly can deal with your social anxiety. So the PROzac gives me a chance but it definitely is not the solution right? But there is, it is possible to overcome anxiety naturally that I mean that is within the realm of probability. Um it seems to me that other people I've met can do it. Um I have people who I know people who are very good at meditating and very good at mindfulness and occasionally pop a Xanax as needed. Um But the majority of people I've talked to don't even have access to those options. So um I I think it is if you can naturally stop and think what am I doing to myself and see it in terms of um punishing yourself unnecessarily with anxiety then yes, you can deal with it without medication.

Mm Okay. And now um you know something you said that I've heard and read a lot about before, is this low self worth and low self esteem component? So that seems to really go hand in hand with certain anxieties, correct? Yes. Um I'm not sure how actual psychiatrists define the difference but I think of self worth as you deserve to be alive and self esteem is I'm okay with who I am. So that is a distinct difference because if you have very little self worth self esteem seems like a joke, you're not even sure you should be existing. You probably have suicidal ideations. Um you you you have no real reason to get up whereas self esteem has to do more with accepting who you are and even just learning who you are. So both of them can be, can seem like mount Everest if you around really critical people um or you don't have social support because you there's no place for you to get that positivity from.

Um I think the internet is can be really helpful for some of those things. All of the positive messages that I see on places like reddit and instagram where people are actively trying to help each other through bad moments has been lovely, but it's probably not a long term plan. So if you do really struggle with self worth or self esteem, you probably need something a little more systematic like habits or like potentially therapy or someone to talk to, who can say something positive to you to start to build those to begin with. Mm Okay. And now something I know you talk about are these perfectionist standards? Talk to us about that and how that um just triggers our anxiety. Yes. Um oftentimes perfectionism is something that we're taught at a young age because we step out of line or we do something that wouldn't necessarily be considered wrong to anyone else, but the people in charge of us get very angry.

So, um, I just read an article about um social anxiety and how it comes from can potentially come from parental or guardian manipulation of Children, where they treat something like dropping a spoon on the floor as if you had murdered someone. So you learn pretty quickly as a child that you can do nothing wrong or there are severe, there's a severe price to pay. Um so, so from that people think they have to be perfect in every moment, they have to say things perfectly, they have to do things perfectly, they have to look perfect. And so that's exhausting for anyone. So why bother trying. It certainly keeps people out of the social realm, it keeps them online. And even though I think online can be healthy if they want real support, they need to step outside their house and meet new people.

But it can be terrifying because you're so afraid you're going to be criticized for not doing something perfectly. But if you truly pay attention to other people talking or the average person giving a speech, humans make mistakes constantly. It is, it is completely human to make mistakes. And it took me an exceptionally long time to realize that was true. And so I I very easily personally put my would put myself down if I did something minor that no, you know, most people on earth would never care about like turning the wrong way when I meant to turn right, I turned left, that would be it. That was the end of the day. So people who deal with perfectionism simply run out of energy really quickly. Uh and it's really difficult to get over until they realize there is no perfect, wow and how do we turn that corner with everything that's going on in the world with all of this kind of social media, like, I mean some of it is you know, not healthy, I think, right, and the standards of some certain, you know, just social media celebrities and things, right?

So we've got these just exaggerated standards of beauty, right? It's like, okay, this person has a team of people putting them together every day. We don't wake up like this and this isn't they have the perfect lighting and the perfect photographer and everything. But how do we you know come to realize that like okay that right when how do we get there and say wait this is I'm aiming for something that's not even real or over the top. Right? And so the dealing with perfectionism thing can start with just editing. Who you pay attention to. Um I have a close friend who's probably gonna hate that. I'm telling the story but she follows a lot of models instagram so naturally she feels terrible all the time but of course she does because she's comparing herself to models. I follow on instagram. Cats and dogs. And so every time I open social media I am immediately in a better mood.

They're all so cute. My womb aches because I wish I could have them all. So our social media experiences are very different by choice. So you have to make smart decisions for yourself. You're never going to completely avoid looking at beautiful people. We're all going to watch movies which have a list beautiful stars in them. We like T. V. Things like that. There's no way to completely avoid it. But understanding that they are the aberration and not us is one step forward and so is um recognizing that anyone who holds you up to that standard, they are essentially brainwashed into thinking that because of media and maybe privileges that they have where they can act as though they expect and deserve you to look like Cindy Crawford or Jason Momoa or whoever um that, that is an entitlement, people are taught as opposed to any kind of objective reality wow.

And that's really kind of the gist of unhealthy kind of situations, right? Where it's like, okay, well I have these high expectations and that doesn't make this other person feel good, but that other person already has low self worth. So they're going to try to live up to that and it's just kind of this vicious cycle. It seems like it's really dangerous, wow. And now talk to me about something I saw on your instagram, you had something there, it said give yourself a chance to feel good, How do we do that? Oh well for me, it literally means about 15 times a day at minimum. I have to remind myself that I am a human. Um some days it gets past me, but usually I can say stop it, you're obsessing, it's, it's okay that you did this thing or that you don't look perfect in this outfit or whatever.

Um reminding yourself that there is a positivity in the world I think is really important. Um, I, I definitely have people in my life who Doom scroll all day and so their self esteem, you know, self worth is so low because the world is a bit of a fiery disaster right now, but it also always will be in some form. So choosing to look for positive things, whether it's through social media in the news, I can definitely help with that. So you're in good spirits to begin with, It doesn't mean that you forget about what's going on in Russia or the pandemic or anything else terrible that's happening, but you at least can counteract it. Um there's a person in my field named john Gottman who came up with this idea that life is essentially a scale. If you're going to have positive self worth or self esteem then for every negative thing you think or someone says to you, you need five positive things to be said to you or for you to look at.

And I don't know anybody who lives a life like that. So it is a very difficult task. But if you realize that the positives have to significantly outweigh the negatives, then you start to go looking for them and you will find them. I love that uh there's, I'm sure you've heard of Jim Quick, he kind of teaches speed reading and stuff and he's a high performer, right? And he, that's one of his things, he says, you know, I mean, life is just going to happen, there's bad things that happen in life that are outside of our control. So I have to just really make a concerted effort every single day to just look for positive stuff because these negative things are going to come, whether we look for him or not, right, that's just a part of life. So um that's right along there with that theory, I love that now, tell me so you know, really kind of just some practical guidance on, I, you know, hypothetical scenario, I have anxiety and I just, I don't know where to start, where is the first best place or best thing.

I mean how do I kind of refocus and turn that corner? I think um for social anxiety in particular it is learning about lives that are different from yours. That's one thing that keeps me centered um you know, whether it's watching a documentary or just something that's actual human beings doing something. Um you can read books, watch movies, watch tv shows about how just basic expectations differ across the world and so things that people say you're doing wrong is subjective. Um I I think learning is one of the best defenses against most criticism because criticism tends to come from a place where you uh the person who is criticizing thinks that there is a right and a wrong and that is it and they don't see that many hues of gray. So I think the more gray you can start to see in the world, the more comfortable you're going to feel participating in it because you're going to understand that we're not meant to be clones of one another and that would be incredibly boring if that were true.

Um so I guess my first practical suggestion would be to look up um something on netflix or go to your local library and just read about people in different cultures. Another one would be to spend every day, pick one thing that you actually like about yourself and every single day, remind yourself about that. Um whether it's first thing in the morning, last thing at night or any time you start to feel the pangs of anxiety whether you feel a panic attack creeping up or you feel really nervous about something, here's this thing I can fall back on that is positive. So it it helps divert your attention which makes your adrenaline calm down. Which lets you engage in life. Mm I love that. I really do, wow. Oh my God I'm not done with you yet but I think we're gonna have to circle back here. I would love to do this again with you at some point.

At some point. You know deeper now what I'm going to ask you first of all I just want to say thank you so much. You have been so amazing and so insightful and I just thank you for your time and wisdom today I'm happy to do it. You've been amazing. And now in closing what is your message? If there were one message that you'd want to get out or some words of wisdom, what would you like to leave us with? Give yourself a break. Mm hmm. Be it, wow. That is amazing. I thank you so much. You were amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Mm hmm. Mhm. Mm hmm.