Welcome to the closed the chapter podcast. I am Kristin Boice, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counseling through conversations, education strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore and open the door to possibilities and the real you, you won't want to miss an episode. So be sure to subscribe. Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast. I am beyond grateful to have you listening. I am thankful for you. You matter, you're important, you're enough and your loved. I'm going to say that right out of the gate because the shame and the lies, I want to tell us a different story. They take us down the dark abyss. And if I can tell you that right away, maybe you needed to hear that today, Maybe you needed to take that in because in our heads we are filled with fear and what's wrong with us and really beating ourselves up.

And so I wanted to start this podcast off with telling you truth. To combat the shame, to combat that inner voice in your head that wants to tell you that you're not good enough and fill in the blank and whatever that looks like. So I wanted to start off telling you the truth and that I'm so grateful for you. I am on a mission to help create a community of people that are on this journey of learning and growing together and I hope this podcast is helpful for you when you tag me on social at Kristin K R I S T E N D B O I C E on instagram or facebook or you just let me know how this has been helpful. I realize not every episode is going to be just jam packed with something that resonates and the ones that do, I appreciate you sharing those. So you can start deeper conversations with those people in your life, that is my goal.

And if you want to jump into the community of people, join us on facebook at close the chapter and you'll want to get on the newsletters. I'm putting together a possible retreat and online of course. So that is something coming up. So if you want to be first to know, jump on the newsletter, Kristin K R I S T E N D B O I C E dot com forward slash free resources and that will come into your inbox every week. Hopefully it's packed with helpful information and this week's episode is about the art of apologizing and that is not easy, apologies are hard. We don't learn how to apologize without disclaimers without blaming someone without saying that wasn't my intention. And we lose the connection. Then when we don't really apologize in a way that is sincere and meaningful.

So this episode is from the facebook live I had on the mental health monday. That's every other week with Mayor chris Jensen of Noblesville. So feel free to give me feedback. Let me know what you think on apologizing and if you want to add anything to the conversation, feel free to post it on facebook or instagram and join in and let's talk about apologizing and why it's hard or what's been helpful or not helpful so we can all come together and grow, learn and evolve. So without further ado here is my conversation about the hard truth about apologies. Good morning. It is Monday August 30 Kristen voice. We're almost done with August. It's hard to believe believe it. I know right. Another edition of mitts off monday here with you this morning. So glad that you are joining us here live on a, on a kind of overcast morning here in Noblesville chris and I were just discussing, we had some storms roll through last night.

I know some folks are cleaning up some mess is my mom Kristen text me from west harbor and have some big limbs down in her house. So I know our parks departments out on the trails. Forest Park golf course for example. I know has a lot of uh limbs down on them. So uh anyways, hope you are safe. Certainly thinking about some of those across the country that are dealing with a lot worse than we are here in central indiana. But I know we have folks watching from all over the United States. So hope you're being safe. Welcome to another edition of mental health monday. I am joined yet again by my good friend, my confidant, somebody who has given so much of her time to help us work through some of our challenges. Kristen voice owners a pathway to healing counseling. Good morning Kristen. Good morning Mayor Jensen. Yes, it was a wild night last night for sure. Electricity went out. I'm glad everybody, I'm just sending prayers for everybody that's impacted across the country. Yeah. World really say we have, you know, you turn on the news Kristen right now and that kind of goes right into what we're gonna talk about a little bit today. And boy, there are challenges everywhere. I'm certainly thankful to live where we live.

But you know, whether it be storms here locally, whether it be, um, issues in the Middle East, they're just people, you know, really going through some tough times right now and that's why we're here. That's why we started this a year and a half ago. Um, certainly to talk about Covid, but it applies to everything we do. And I'm actually looking forward to today's topic and talk about defensiveness. I know if anybody read that this morning, I know I thought it was a defensiveness. I'm not defensive. What are you talking about? I'm like, what are you talking about? And it fed right into exactly what we're gonna talk about. I'm sure everyone kind of maybe looked away when they read the topic that we're seeing today. Um, and that's why we're gonna, we're gonna address it. So if you're here, feel free to say hi. I know, Jenna Stewart, my good friend on the wellington has already said hi, my friend, Kay Evans from texas, Kay, hope for being safe down there in texas. Um I love the fact that we have people all over and again, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about all sorts of topics. You have any questions tune in and feel free to write, then we'll try to answer for you live. If not, we'll get back to a little bit later. But before we start, I've already rambled on way too much this morning, we're going to do a exercise that I love square breathing.

Kristen take it away. I will tell you, sorry, I'm gonna keep rambling. I spoke at an event last week and before I started my remarks, I made the entire room do square breathing and it was a little a little awkward at first, but I did and I think that's gonna be that's gonna be my trademark now. So if your group invites me to come speak, just prepare yourself. We're gonna do a little square breathing before I speak Good morning Mrs Hines and it's just gonna be a part of what we do. So take it away, Kristin, I love that so much I spoke last week to and did the same thing. So it's a ripple effect, that's the beauty of doing this work when you do your own work, you help other people. That's that's the power in connecting to what lies within. So the first day I teach clients and we do this every week is a strategy that's really important when we're dealing with defensiveness, when we're dealing with an intensity and activation in our nervous system. The first thing I'm gonna have you do, which is the hardest thing. Typically when we're triggered is to take a deep breath 5 to 6 at a time.

So put your feet on the floor. Very important if you're standing, if you're sitting pressing into your feet to ground you to center you to come back to the present moment to regulate your nervous system to self soothe then we're going to inhale through our nose for four. We're gonna hold for four and release slowly out your mouth for eight. It's really important you're inhaling through the nose and exhaling out your mouth to release that tension and tightness in your nervous system. We're gonna do this together, we're gonna do two breaths. So pressing into your feet, inhale through your nose. Hold and exhale out your mouth. I'm gonna do one more together, dropping those shoulders down, relaxing on that, out breath, inhale and exhale. I was wrong. Just kind of checking in, checking into your nervous system. Getting a little, if you need to do a little twist, feel free to twist your body. It's really tuning into your body and releasing what you might have been holding during the day or the morning, trying to get through your morning, it's time to connect and be and remove any of those barriers are black.

So it's gonna be really important as we're talking about defenses today, yep. And I would say square breathing something I do all day long, I do it in the car a lot. Um, I do it in my office a lot. Um, and so you can do it anywhere. I try to even work my kids on it. I can tell you that that's kind of hit or miss sometimes. I'm sure many buddy can can relate to that, trying to get, you know, my 10 year old can get it, everyone smile by 44 and five, get a little bit tricky, you know, the five month olds working on keeping her head up. So you know, we'll get her started at one of these days as well, but kids can relate to it, adults can relate to it. I love it. I can feel my body instantly, just relax and take a deep breath, especially in the age of social media. That's a huge part of it as well. So, um, yeah, thanks, I solved my good friend Janet Leonard say her nervous system thanks to kristen voice. So I know that's important, That's important to breathe. People breathe. So let's talk about defensiveness again, I alluded on the outset, there's a lot going on. And I don't have to tell you whether it be masked in school, whether it be uh storms last night in your hometown or hurricanes across the country.

We see our folks are military and what they're dealing with in Afghanistan right now. That may seem like something here and now, but that's really an issue we've been dealing with for 20 years and so you may know somebody who was over in Afghanistan and have emotions around this. So there's just a lot swirling around whether it be at home abroad in your own family, you name it. There's, there's a lot going on. Defensiveness is something we see a lot in our society I know in conversations and I'm just as guilty, guilty as charged when it comes to defensiveness. Um, and how we get defensive when people ask me questions about things going on in Noblesville that I believe in, I instantly default to defensiveness. I want to go on the on the defense and tell you why we did something or defend why we made a decision. Um, that certainly is probably not helpful to the conversation. So Kristin, tell us, first of all, what does defensiveness look like. Then we'll get into the conversation around how we work through it first. I want to say is we all have defenses, we develop these as Children as a way to connect belong and survive.

We don't want to make them right or wrong or we're going to get it stuck in shame, shame says I'm not good enough, Something's wrong with me, I'm defective. We all have defense mechanisms and what defense mechanisms primarily do is they're trying to protect us from discomfort, hurt, blame, shame and judgment. So we want to protect ourselves from getting hurt or rejected or abandoned. And so we developed these defense mechanisms as a way to survive. And it's really important. We're defining this because defense mechanisms also can get us into right, wrong, good, bad all nothing very polarized thinking because again, we want to protect ourselves from being shamed, rejected, abandoned, blame, judged it hurts. So we're trying to protect us from our hurt and our discomfort. It's very important. We're highlighting that. So we say, okay, what are some defense mechanisms I could list at least 100. I'm going to focus on the ones that I primarily see. And again, nobody gets out of this category for free.

We all have them. I have them. I mean we all you said you have and we all have them. So they're developed very early in childhood as a way again to try to gain some worse value belonging, love, ability, acceptance, maybe it's a survival mechanism as you're trying to protect yourself from trauma or abuse. And so let's list some of those, some of those are pretty benign, they seem not real. Um you wouldn't probably label them as a defense and then some seem pretty intense defense mechanisms typically come online when we're triggered. There's an activation in your nervous system. You have an intense response inside, you feel hurt, you feel judged, you feel blamed. And so let's name some of those. So for example, sometimes I'll see clients telling me something that is super painful. That is covering up grief. It's covering up sadness, it's covering up fear. It's covering up those core emotions. We've been talking about this whole time to try to move away from it because it's almost too painful.

And so they'll smile. They're almost telling me something and they're smiling but underneath it they're hiding, they're masking the pain. They're masking the sadness and grief. So smiling is one. Maybe you make a joke when someone says something uncomfortable and you kind of use sarcasm and there's a place for jokes, There's a place for humor. Sometimes you have to be aware are you using humor to deflect to protect to not process those emotions that need attention. They need nurturing. So in childhood often times we didn't get that processing time. And so we build up these defense mechanisms, maybe it's perfectionism, maybe it's workaholism maybe you don't make eye contact because it feels too intimate, it feels too intense. Um We can use alcohol, we can use shopping, we can use social media, we can get angry, we can have rage. Those are defending having to be right. Maybe your caretaking caretaking is a big defense, maybe you're not sharing anything in your shut down and you're really pulled back and almost quiet as a form of shield trying to protect yourself.

I kind of made a list. Worrying is one where we're just running on a loop. We're not really processing the emotions were just processing the thoughts were not even processing the thoughts were just on a wheel going over and over and over the same thought because we're not processing the core emotion which might be fear, it might be sadness, it might be discussed and really trying to fix other people. So that's a difference. So some people might try to get so fixated on changing somebody else because it's too painful to acknowledge their own emotions. And the number one of the number one things that I see as a defense is denial. We're denying reality. We want to live in a non reality. We deny what's really going on. Maybe someone's got an addiction problem and we feel so powerless over it that we even deny it's happening. We see this a lot in family systems, denial is a powerful defense hard one to break. And one of the most powerful ways to change generational patterns and so denials, one that can be hard to almost spot in your own life because you want to live in this kind of altered reality and that's how we lived as Children.

We didn't know any better. So we just we didn't know that this is an issue perhaps or we did. But everybody else seems to deny it. So that I feel crazy. Like why am I the one saying, Hey, there's an issue here when everyone else is like, there's no issue gaslighting if you've heard that before, where someone is basically making the issue about somebody else. And so the person begins to self doubt and question themselves. Uh, some of the other ones are racism can be a, it could be a defense judgment is a big defense because we're not processing our own emotions underneath these. It's really important that you understand that defense is don't make you bad. They are covering up your own pain. It's unprocessed pain. That's why it's so important to connect to our core emotions and what are the core emotions we're going to go over these again. So anger can be a secondary. It can be a cover up. So it can be a defense. If we're, if we're really intense about something, typically anger is going to be an invitation for us to look at what's going on fear right now, I'm seeing a lot of fear, understandable grief, we don't want to and sadness.

This is when we defend it against a lot because we weren't allowed to feel that as Children, we had to be happy or we weren't allowed to maybe we were only allowed to show joy, so toxic positivity where everything's wonderful. That's another defense mechanism to not processing the harder emotions and we have excitement. Some people weren't allowed to be excited as Children that was too much. They feel like they're too much. Um and then sexual excitement that we can also use that as a defense, moving away from processing those, those deeper emotions that are there. Um not listening, spacing out. Have you ever been to a stop site like you're driving and you're like, did I stop at that stop sign? Oh my gosh, how did I even get home? Like, I don't even remember my drive that's called dissociation. That's leaving the present moment to try to keep going. And so sometimes we don't even know we're doing that, we can call that spacing out. That's also another defense really, we could go on and on.

Um talking a lot can be a defense which feels like I am right now talking a lot and it's so important to recognize what are your defense mechanisms that are covering up your own pain, pain from the past that is not processed will metastasize. So if you think I put that away and I'm never going to deal with that again, chances are you're living in a very cut off, split off part of yourself, your defended. So it's hard for you to have deep connections because you're afraid of abandonment. You're afraid of rejection, you're afraid of uncovering all that hurt and pain, but really what that does when you process it, we can free ourselves to be more real. We can free ourselves to free ourselves from anxiety and depression and guilt and shame because those all inhibit us from processing what's really going on, which are these core emotions. So when we can name the feeling, we can start processing the feeling, we can start healing and I know that sounds so cliche, the more we feel, the more we heal, but these defense mechanisms, we're seeing them right now all over the place because go ahead.

No, I was just going to ask a question involving the because I'm playing out in my mind here on different scenarios that you might see and I want to talk about the difference between defense mechanism and justification because I, you know, I think about like on a daily life if you're, if you're feeling guilty about something or processing something and I use a cliche example like, oh I I can have that entire bag of chips because X, y and Z, or I can, you know, have a glass of wine or or three or four the next night because because of X, y and Z, is that justification? Or is that defense or can you maybe talk about maybe the difference between the two because I think, you know, I'm playing in my mind scenarios that I see or I might feel individually and I'm just trying to differentiate a little bit great question. I love our conversations. Hey, morning, I know going deep, aren't we justification is a defense. So it's a great question. So I'll go, I've had a hard day. I am so stressed out. I just need to take the edge off right there means I'm not processing the day, I'm not processing what someone might have said to me.

Maybe someone said something really hurtful and it took me down to a place. My, my inner child was really hurt and sad. But instead of processing it, I get piste instead of processing it. I have a glass of wine instead of processing it. Maybe I even yell at the dog instead of processing it. Maybe I'm like, I'm gonna binge watch this whole and I'm not making it wrong or bad. So I want to make sure we're not doing that or noticing. I'm gonna binge watch this show. I'm gonna eat an entire bag of gummy snappers. Exactly. Or I'm in the pantry just like, because I'm just wanting to take that edge off underneath the edge is hurt, overwhelmed, fear, exhaustion. And right now with Covid, let's be honest, we're exhausted. We're grieving, we want what was some of us. And so we're like longing for what was, and we're trying to process the as is, and it breaks up a lot of feelings when we feel powerless and all this uncertainty.

So I think that's a really good question. I'm justified because we do that a lot, Right? Like, well I've had a hard day or you don't know what I've been through. Well, that's why I think about during covid, you know, there were so many anyone who's a parent dealing with home schooling or grandparents, so many grandparents pitched into homeschooling are to help quarantines were doing that right now. And, and I saw even just through text messages through friends of ours, you know about like, um, you know, well I, you know, it's been a long day or there was the meme where it was like a dumpster with fire all around it and it was like, it's fine. It's all fine. Everything is fine. You probably saw that as well. Um, you know, I think there was a lot of just defense and deflection during that time. And so we were justifying our behavior like I said, whether it was, you know, glasses, wine or bags of Gummi savers or whatever it may be. Um, there's a lot of that deflection. I think it's important to stop and notice here if if you found yourself during that as we did at the Jensen household, I'm sure you get the boys household knowing that there are core emotions underneath that that are not being worked through.

And I think that's the healthy avenue here. Yes. And you said something really important about I'm fine finest feelings inside not expressed feelings inside. Not expressed my least favorite thing between julie Jensen everyone. Something alright. I'm fine. Which means if you're a man, you know like it's the opposite of fine. All right. So that's the worst. Yes. So I tell couples don't say that like it's from your vocabulary. It was safe as maybe a child to say I'm fine. Walk the line so you can just stay out of the fray. But as adults and you wanting to have deeper connection, I'm fine, creates a barrier to vulnerability and authenticity and connection because a lot of times we're not fine and we feel like people don't want to hear it. I don't want to be a burden and feelings inside not expressed. It's a signal for you when you say I'm fine to go, oh what am I really feeling? It's not for somebody else. As for you. So that is a tell that I teach couples and I teach individuals in therapy.

Like if you're saying I'm fine, we got to check it. Feelings inside not expressed. Okay, what's going? What's really going on? And it takes a lot of work to do this. I get people a cheat sheet people come to therapy and they're like a big feeling wheel and have you ever seen that before? It's like a big meal of feelings and I don't know if this is like way overwhelming. Like I'm gonna give you a cheat sheet six core and you can have multiple ones at the same time. So when people ask you how you are, let's cut fine out of the vocabulary. That's good to know. So okay, if I catch myself saying let's pivot here a little bit because I want folks to be able to get some tools on not dealing with those defensiveness but working through the defensiveness. So if I catch myself saying I'm fine, I use that as a time out for myself. Okay, I could not find it, I'm using that word, it's not correct or it's not maybe helpful. It's a feeling inside not expressed. How do I deal with that kristen? What do I, what do I where do I go from there? Yeah, perfect. Because the first thing is we've got to build awareness.

Self awareness is empowerment. People want to feel empowered and like the more you know yourself, the more you know why you're triggered, the more you're processing your core emotions the better. So first that deep breath because typically were triggered or were shut down or we're just kind of we've learned to just kind of I'm fine and go along like that positive toxicity Right? And so the first thing is take a deep breath connect, go what am I feeling? Ok? Oh got it backwards? What am I feeling cheat sheet? You got them right here. That's the first thing then you're going to try to name it, name it to tame, it means process and metabolize it, move it up and out of your body emotions live in the body. So naming the feeling is a huge part of the work and it sounds super easy and it's not at all because it can unravel us and we can get afraid. Like if I say how I'm going to feel, maybe this person is going to leave me or if I say how I feel this person is going to think I'm too much or if I say I'm going to really feel, then I'm going to end up being alone.

Because maybe that's what happened in childhood. That's why doing deeper work, meaning, processing all the things in our childhood because we all have them helps us to free ourselves and liberate ourselves from all these defenses we've built up over time. So now I can recognize. So here's a good example. So when your Children give you feedback, listen and I know this is hard, Believe me, I know when Children give you feedback because I want my kids to tell me how they really feel they are, they will tell you pretty much what's going on. If you, if you are willing to sustain it and allow them to have their own thoughts, feelings and opinions, they will tell you, Hey mom, you're really angry and I want to go, no, I'm not Immediately. I want to get defensive like you're the angry one. Look at you, you're all dis regulated. I want to immediately focus on what they're doing in their behavior instead of me taking a deep breath, noticing I got defensive and activated pretty quickly.

Or let's say this is your partner. It doesn't matter insert whomever. Take a deep breath metabolism process that feeling you have inside. Okay, I feel fear that now she thinks I'm a terrible mom. I've now made up a story about how I'm a terrible mom and she thinks I'm mad and I've gone down a rabbit trail instead. What I want you to do is take a deep breath. This is practice. Trust me, I don't do this well all the time. Take a deep breath and I want to go, thank you for sharing that. I can see how you felt that way I did. I was getting a little intense and I can see how that landed for you as anger. Tell me more about that. Yeah, you are really scary. You're like all intense and what why are you so all worked up? I mean you're feel like you're criticizing me, breathe because now I want to go, I wasn't criticizing you. I love you and then I want to get defensive. That is not how we need to respond. I want to go, oh, I can see how that really felt like I was criticizing you and that probably felt created a lot of shame and you felt not good enough and I am so sorry I did that.

Is there more you want to process? What if we did that? What if instead of getting defensive, I was able to kind of metabolize meaning, process what my kids are saying. This is feedback in our home is all the time. Um, thank you mom for being a therapist and so me acknowledging what they're saying without me going back at it with, well you did this or no, I'm not or why do you think that or getting defensive and I can feel it, my nervous system taking a breath and acknowledging what they're saying and letting it land and processing it without it going to shame because Shane says, you're a piece of crap. Shane says you're not a good parent. Shane says you're not a good partner. Shane says, you think I'm terrible? I mean we go down the shame story spiral. So in order to metabolize these defenses, we have to be aware of them and own them. That's tricky because I always view when I was a kid, I used to always hit a tennis ball against the garage door with a tennis racket.

And I view defenses like that as like it gets thrown at me by, you know, my kids or whoever and I instantly bounced back with no or no, I'm not or you know, you know, it's a, it's a rapid fire responses that tennis ball with a garage door type situation. I'm not sure why I thought of that, but I did, um, you know, I thought this week and my son, my 10 year old loves to call me Karen. Everyone smile started, Karen's out there, but it's a common phrase now and um you know what, what do you mean? I'm Karen, you know what I mean? Like I come right back and um but I don't even ask the question in a like intentional explain to me way. I do it as a accusatory like, no, I am not. Instead of actually understanding His perspective on why I'm being that way, usually it's some great 10 year old because I didn't let him have a sleepover with 17 of his friends or something like that. But um you know, instead of bouncing right back, letting that marinate, I like that word too, sitting in it for a minute, you know, and I always tell our staff here at city hall sometimes we got to sit in some of these things, you know, and I thrive on awkward conversations so I want to sit in it for a little bit. Um, but that's not easy to do.

No, it's not. You're, you're a very few that thriving awkward conversations. We typically avoid avoidance is another defense mechanisms and Weight is a great acronym and throwing all the acronyms out today. Why am I talking? So when my child or teen or adult kid, it doesn't matter the age of your child when they give you feedback, why am I talking? Typically I'm defensive if I come back immediately with something. So and metabolize it. Take a deep breath, acknowledge the emotion that they're trying to share. Your, trying to get to the emotion. This is the bottom line of defenses, whether someone else's or your own. You're trying to get to the emotion, the core emotion when we can get to it, we can process it, we can move through it, get to the other side that actually have connection as a result. So, but you have to be willing to look within your own stuff. Like this is what if we all did this, we'd have a different world if we all knew how to do it. A lot of people didn't learn this, including myself until I obviously became a therapist.

So owning your own stuff is huge in terms of defensiveness and breaking through to get to processing those core emotions which is being kind to yourself. Uh well that's what I want to pivot and we're kind of running out of time here at the very end. But I'm real quick and we can even pick up next time if you want to so much has been focused on our internal, which I think is step number one, probably 12 and three. But if we're in a relationship for example, or even just in a coworking relation, whatever it may be and someone's always defensive. How do we maybe approach that conversation differently if someone is in a very defensive mode. Yeah, this is a good question and we could break it down. I'm going to give you my since we're almost out of time 32nd response, take a deep breath because if they are flipped and defensive chances are you're going to try to defend yourself because they're feels threat to you in some form or fashion. So you're gonna take that deep breath, center yourself, ground yourself because you don't want to take on someone else's energy. You don't want to take on that same response.

So you a boundary and defenses are very different without time to break that down today. A boundaries what's okay, what's not okay. So sometimes you're just going to acknowledge the emotion you hypothesize someone feels and if they're so defended, they're not going to be able to connect to their own emotions, right? Because they're afraid of unpacking their own emotions. So something like someone says you always which typically evokes the defense response and couples or you never, the person might say man, it sounds like you feel really overwhelmed because you feel like I never take out the trash and you feel really free. Sad about that and afraid that that I'll never take out the trash. Yeah, you never take. So I'm trying to get underneath the message to the emotion and that does not mean I am changing someone else. If someone's pretty defended, I can't, I'm powerless over that. So I'm just regulating my own emotions. So I don't flip with the other person. That's good. Well again we may pick up with this in a couple weeks to because that I feel like there's a whole nother conversation on how we um deal with maybe others who might be in a more defensive defensive mode right now.

So real quick we have one minute left. Kristen if somebody is clinging to hope right now they're they're tuned in. They need some answers right now. They're in a bad spot. Where can they turn? First thing I want to say is you please reach out for help. You matter. You're important in your loved and Shane tells you such a different story tells you you don't matter, nobody cares about you. 1 802 73 talk is what I recommend because they are trained to deal with this. If you feel suicidal at any level or you're struggling or you can text 741741. If you don't want to talk on the phone, we also have prevail here locally in Noblesville indiana who helps with any domestic violence or emotional abuse. And their 24 hour hotline is 3177763472. There's also a whole list of resources on the city of Noblesville facebook page or city of Noblesville website. They please go there. There's lots of resources. Community resources to get some help. Yes, but you matter.

Come back and join us in a couple of weeks. Great participation today, by the way, you guys are awesome. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. There's a few questions I'm not going to answer on this live stream, but I'll get you some answers later. Larry, thanks for tuning in. We're talking about mental health every two weeks here on mental health monday. We'll see you back here in two weeks. Kristin Voices always thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Everyone, thank you so much for listening to the closed the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member for more information about how to get connected, visit Kristin K R I S T E N D B O I C E dot com. Thanks and have a great day.