how is it that we find ourselves surrounded by such complexity such elements. Hi you're listening to D. N. A. Today a podcast and radio show where we discover new advances in the world of genetics from genetic technology like CRISPR to rare diseases to new research. We have you covered for a decade. DNA today has brought you the voices of leaders in genetics. I'm tired. I mean I'm a certified genetic counselor and your host joining me for this episode. Our guests from phenotype. So I'm really excited to be recording with both of them today. Our first guest is Dr Orion Bousquet who is the ceo of fino tips. He holds a PhD in computer science from the University of Toronto where he specialized in algorithms for genome analysis and rare disease patient matchmaking. He co leads the global alliance for genomics and health pedigree standard working group which kind of gives you a teaser of what we're going to be talking about in today's episode.

Our other guest is Erica Peacock who is the genetics workflow consultant at Alfano tips. She holds an MSC degree in genetic counseling from the University of british Columbia and she's certified by the american board of genetic counseling and for those that might be thinking fanatics. Where have I heard that name before um might seem familiar to you as I host the phenotype speaker series which is a live webinar about genetic topics. So very similar to DNA today in a lot of ways. Um what's cool about that DNA today doesn't have is a live Q. And a session. Um So this is really cool because it's a live event. So you know we're in zoom on Youtube and you're able to ask our guest questions and so I'm the host for that. Um And then it's released as a podcast to get best of both worlds there. Um So you can search for no tip speaker series wherever you're listening to this podcast and to tease this episode. So as a member of the L. G. B. T. Q. I. A community, I am really excited to talk about building inclusive software for genetic counseling in this episode.

Especially in the spirit of pride month this month in june. Um And while I'm thinking of it, stay tuned for next week's episode we are sharing our june installment of the phenotype speaker series which I think it's gonna pair really nicely with this conversation as it's about improving gender affirming care and genetic counseling and features a fellow genetic counselor and transgender patient advocate. Um so I feel like I've been talking forever. A Ryan, welcome back to the show. Um you were on episode 144 of March 2021. Are there any new updates with no tips in the last year plus. Thanks kira. It's great to be back. Yeah I think a lot has sort of changed the company. Um We're now a venture backed startup. The team has almost doubled in size. Um We've expanded to support a lot of additional uh hospitals and health systems around the world were now supporting some genomic medicine service alliances in the U.

K. Which is incredibly exciting to expand to additional trusts. They're really focusing on how do we mainstream genomic medicine around the world and in different health systems. So that's sort of the big focus on everyone's mind. Um In terms of product we've sort of expanded with a lot of new features and and different work. Um A lot of focus in terms of integrating more deeply within electronic health record systems like Epic and Cerner. A lot of improvements to the pedigree in particular with with cancer genetics in mind. I think we'll get into some of those during discussion today. Um And then really a lot of work to help streamline the intake of patients for both general genetics and cancer genetics. Um We have a patient intake questionnaire and and trying to help help patients provide more thorough family history and health information and have that. Then automate a lot of the work that the genetic counselors would otherwise have to do on that intake. We love that aspect definitely. Right. Um Yeah I think you know tips. You guys have grown so much and it's been so exciting to watch you guys grow as I I've worked with you.

Um you know I started working with you guys like right as the pandemic is when we started the speaker series. The phenotype speaker series. Um So it's just been so exciting. It's like, oh there's this new team member and this person to me. Um and just so many new features and it's just great to see the impact that, you know, tips has had in the genetic community worldwide because it's just so amazing, especially during the webinars um that we're connecting with a lot of people in the UK, as you mentioned, Canada, the US seems to be those where a lot of people are tuning in from, but really all over the world. And you know, one of the things that I continuously hear from people working in genetics is the pedigree builder and just how how great that is that, you know, tips has built. Um Can you remind our audience about the pedigree builder and maybe speak a little bit more to that. Sure, I guess at a high level. So they're fanatics has a built in pedigree builder pedigree drawing tool within it. It was actually one of the very first modules that we added way way back when, when we're just a research project at sick kids hospital here in Toronto and the University of Toronto.

Yeah, it's one of the most widely, I would say appreciated modules within the application and it's just the the user interface for managing all of the relationships between the different patients or participants that people are managing within their their for instance. Yeah, it's definitely widely loved. I was shocked when I was looking at some statistics that you offer on the website, you know, tips.com that over 95% of users agree. It's the best pedigree drawing software that they've used. And that's that's a really strong statistic. I gotta say. What do you think about the fanatics? Pedigree builder makes it so widely loved, Especially compared to other ones that are out there, even ones that have been around for longer. That's a complicated question. I think that was not an easy question I gave you right there. I think there are a few reasons, at least from from our side why we see that that might be the case. I guess we got our start as a research organization and so that what that I think means is that even from the beginning we built it to tackle some of the hardest cases that come up.

Um so really supporting both research and clinical use cases. So I guess now as we've grown, we've really tried to make the simple cases easy, but that making sure that those complicated cases are still possible. So everything from multi generational linkages to sort of very complex pedigree structures and other sorts of fine grained editing that you might not otherwise be able to do within other tools. I think one of the other things that we put a huge amount of effort in is just trying to make it so that all of the layout algorithms of which I would say that is a very significant portion of the complexity of the software. Uh all of that complexity is there behind the scenes working to try to make it so that a nice clean pedigree ends up being able to be presented to users at the end of the day. So that's what we've at least tried to do. Definitely important and appreciated by, you know, the genetic professional working community I'd say to include people that aren't genetic counselors that are using this as well. Hey mushier therapeutics is dedicated to developing therapies that help improve the lives of patients with rare genetic diseases.

Him a sheer scientists have developed an investigational therapy to treat metal moronic acid E. MiA and probiotic Asadi miA. These ultra rare genetic diseases lead to the rapid build up of toxins in the body. Patients can suffer from intellectual disability, liver kidney or cardiac disease and other life threatening conditions. Here is conducting a clinical trial to assess if their drug may be effective in the treatment of both methyl moronic acid E. MiA and probiotic Asadi mia. Learn more about him. A sheer and these ultra rare metabolic diseases in episode 1 88 of DNA today, you can also visit him a sheer dot com. That's H E M O S H E A R dot com. Perkinelmer genomics is a global leader in genetic testing, focusing on rare diseases inherited disorders, newborn screening and hereditary cancer testing services, support the full continuum of care from preconception and prenatal to neonatal pediatric and adult testing options include sequencing for targeted genes, multiple genes, the whole X.

Um our genome and copy number variations using a simple saliva blood sample. Perkinelmer genomics answers complex genetic questions that can proactively inform patient care and end the diagnostic odyssey for families. Learn more at perkinelmer genomics dot com. You know, as I mentioned at the top of the show is part of pride celebration this month. I really wanted to have more conversations that were focused on the L. G. B. T. Q. I. Plus community. Um, and you know, first off Erica, could you give our audience a summary of the purpose of a pedigree and what information is typically collected in one because you know, definitely or and I have been talking about like features and everything but I'm realizing maybe some people listening or like remind me what's a pedigree, What are we included in that and like that's our bread and butter as genetic counselors. Right? For sure. And I think that's a great place to start is what is the pedigree? What information is on it and what is it used for? So I think first and foremost as genetics providers professionals, we we think of it as a way to record medical history about a family and so it has the family structure information how individuals are related to one another and certain traits or conditions that might be um carried down through the family.

Um, and so that's, I think first and foremost what we think of it as it's something that's part of the medical record. Um, and it's quite official documentation of that, but it's so much more than that. It shows so much insight into the family dynamics and the family story and it's quite a sensitive place to be in to collect that kind of information. Um, and so I think that's always kind of top of mind is, you know, um, honoring that you're part of that experience of collecting that information and using it as a rapport building tool with your patients is also one way it's applied in genetics. Yeah, I think that's a really good point and one that's often not brought up. I think when we're often talking about family health history, we're saying, okay, let's get the information. Um, but it also is an opportunity to be connecting with your patient and in a genetic counseling session. A lot of it is focused on, okay. Like we're educating the patients, but it really flips, you know, the microphone almost if you know, you're not recording, but um, you know, flips the script a little bit in terms of having them educating you about their family history.

Um, and learning about, you know, their family dynamics too, I think is important when we're asking about the health of certain individuals in the family. Maybe they don't have relationship with them, Maybe they're super close with them and everything in between and um, and just, you know, the different representation of diversity within the family history, I think too, is, you know, I wanna want to focus on, um, you know, sex, gender, sexuality. Um, you know, during this this conversation. And I think one place to start with that is really identifying why it's important to denote someone sex assigned at birth because that's something that, you know, um, being trained in genetic counseling. We're like, okay, squares are males, circles or females. Um, but I think we're gonna go beyond that a little bit in this conversation. But why is it important to know the sex assigned at birth and have that specifically? Yeah. And so sex assigned at birth is really a label that's put on a person based on, um, certain characteristics at birth, whether it be their reproductive organs, hormones or chromosomes.

And I think in genetics, it's really important to highlight why you're collecting that information. Um, and so there's different scenarios. I can think of that, that information would be really important to know about your patient, but also the family, um, as well. Um, so one good example is thinking of X linked inheritance conditions. Um, and so that's a situation where if you're counseling a family around that, it's really important to know the sex assigned at birth of the whole family. And so typically we think of, Um, folks with two x chromosomes being assigned female at birth and males having an X and Y chromosome. So I would say that's one situation where it's important. Another one would be in cancer genetic counseling, where your counseling around conditions that have an increased incidence of cancer in certain organs. So it's important to know if someone has a prostate in the family or someone has breast tissue, for example.

Um, and having many people affected by cancer are unaffected by cancer. It really does depend if they're males or females. I think that's important to know. And I like that phrasing that I've been seeing used more and more like, okay, people with prostates, people with this specific organ, I think can be really helpful and inclusive in that way, um, to say, okay. And that cancer setting, um, people that have more breast tissue are at higher risk. So people that, you know, maybe, you know, we'd say females, but really to include more people to say, okay, um, people with this organ have a chance of having this cancer. Um, and certainly in families where we have, you know, a limited family structure of some kind where maybe, you know, we don't have a lot of females or we don't have a lot of males or we may not see certain cancers coming up, we have to take all these pieces together. So there certainly is a reason why we're denoting um, that and I think another one kind of along similar lines is, you know, in terms of, I guess your pedigree builder two of speaking to that.

Like, um, how you plan to incorporate same sex couples utilizing a donor or donors to conceive. And that also includes, um, you know, uh, people that are in heterosexual relationships that are using donors. Right? So I think that really opens up the door. Um, but how are you planning to incorporate this into pedigree builders? Yeah, absolutely. Our tool actually already supports same sex couples. Amazing. That's the answer I was looking for. So, yeah, that's an easy answer. And then in terms of representing different families and as you know, there's different ways of conceiving and having a pregnancy and we want to make sure that we're um, encompassing and being able to represent all sorts of family structures, whether there's a sperm donor involved, an egg donor involved, a gestational carrier. So those symbols are on our product roadmap for this year. And we're really excited to incorporate those because I think it's just a no brainer.

Yes, definitely. I think if it's, you know, once you put it into the software, I mean, I'm not as computer savvy, especially as Ryan is, but you know, I think once you're able to put that in the software, it's just it's so important to include and, and I think some people listening might think, well, how often is this happening as a prenatal genetic counselor, I can say a lot. Um you know I'm constantly using these symbols. Um And it's just really important to have that right on hand that it's part of standard nomenclature. Um And when we say nomenclature um part of that in terms of pedigree is like what symbol are we using or what similar are we drawing? Um So one of the other things I think about with nomenclature that I've seen a lot of different conversations especially on twitter. So shout out to hashtag gene chat which used to be um G. C. Chat. We've kind of migrated over there. Um What are the best ways to indicate that someone is transgender on a pedigree? Um you know are there different options is now in 2022 do we have a standard nomenclature if someone is transgender?

Yeah all really good questions. So in terms of nomenclature those symbols used on pedigrees to represent individuals um N. S. G. C. The National Society of Genetic counselors uh first published nomenclature guidelines around 2000 and eight and I know that there that was the first time. That's really surprising. That's very late. Yeah. Well I think that's the most recent time. Oh okay sorry misunderstood that. Okay got it. I was like really we've been doing pedigrees way longer than that. All right. Absolutely. Um And I know that there's a task force really working diligently on this exact topic of how to represent trans folks um That being said there's also really great research going on within the genetic counseling community. And there have been publications um where the trans community has been consulted and the genetic counseling community at large as well. And I think the consensus is really to have options and to talk with your patients about what these symbols represent.

Um and let them choose how they want to be represented on the pedigree. And I think gender first. Um simple representation is also important. Um so for example, a trans man who was assigned female at birth could be represented as a square to denote a man and then putting a F. A. B to designate their sex assigned at birth Would be one way to represent that person. Yeah, I think that's a really astute point in that it's so important to involve community members in these conversations. Um so I think, you know, that's certainly something that we've done a lot on the show in terms of having patient advocates on so that they can speak to their community and and thoughts that they have as well as, you know, other people in the community and and you know, obviously having the genetics community weigh in as well. Um but I think that's really great and also goes back to a point of rapport building of saying, okay, like this is, you know, this is what these symbols represent.

Um what do you feel comfortable with me drawing for you um and really being able to connect in that way. Um And then as you said kind of incorporating sex assigned at birth as well so that you have the medical information there as well as you know their gender information. Um So I think that's important and you know one that I've also seen conversations about is how individuals can be you know, identified on the pedigree who themselves identify as gender non conforming or non binary or are somewhere on the gender spectrum that isn't necessarily um you know specific. Um So is there any kind of consensus in terms of what options we have for representing gender? Nonconforming or non binary people? Mhm. Again I guess it's another area where I think options are helpful and no two people are gonna want to be represented the same way. But I think a really good option for folks who are gender nonconforming or non binary don't fall on that exact female or male.

Um A diamond to represent them. Um And then again designating their sex assigned at birth. Um is one option. Um But I think it's also we need to be sensitive around again how these people want to be how the patient in front of you wants to be represented. Keeping in mind that the pedigree is part of the medical record and historically people part of the L. G. B. T. Q. I. A. Plus community have been marginalized and there's a lot of prejudice around that still, unfortunately to this day. So although a diamond might be a good option for one person, another person, they want a square or a circle documented in the medical record. So it really depends. Yeah, I really like using the diamond. And um oftentimes we use that if we also don't know someone's sex or gender. So I think that's that's sometimes, you know, a natural one for genetic counselors to reach for to use. Um because even when I'm going through, sometimes, you know, I'm not asking, especially, you know, as a prenatal genetic counselor, I ask are any of your siblings have Children?

They're like, yes, I don't always go into, alright, how many boys? How many girls, if it's not necessary? Um You know, as we said, if there's not like an excellent disorder or something where, you know, we're talking about cancer conditions where I say, okay, it's important for me to know the sex. I'll just draw a diamond. Right? How many, how many kids? Right, I'll be like, okay, this person has four kids diamond right before in the middle keep going. Um So I think that that's um one that really naturally flows into what we've already been doing and kind of expanding onto it. Um another thing that I've been, you know, really starting to incorporate into my pedigrees is jotting down pronouns that people use, especially for my patient and their partner. Um and kind of, you know, starting the conversation saying, you know, okay, your partner like what's their name and and using very gender neutral terms until they say something that tells me otherwise. Um So that's certainly something that um I've been doing. Um and then denoting that. Um is there a way to make note of this on the tips?

Pedigree builders, that something may be in the works? Yeah, I think that's excellent that you're you're incorporating that into your just everyday practice. That that's amazing. Um and I think the pedigree is a good place to put pronouns because that's part that's just one good component of gender. Affirming care is making sure you're addressing your patient and their family with the correct pronouns. We know that that's been a barrier to care for a lot of folks. Just using the right pronouns can mean the world to someone. I think in the fanatics pedigree, we have a lot of flexibility built into the tool. And so under every person in the pedigree, there's a comment section that you can record free text in. So I think that's an excellent place to put that information, especially when you're sharing the pedigree with other providers in the circle of care. It can help make sure that those pronouns are then used by other health care providers in that team too.

So I think it's just the pedigrees agreed, great place to put those. Yeah, yeah, certainly. I think it's just easy to ask for pronouns at that point and sometimes you don't even have to ask because once they start talking about their partner they'll start using pronouns and then you just catch on. So it's just very naturally flows. So I think I like that and and also having an intake forms too. Um and you guys have the pre visit questionnaire that actually aids with construction constructing an accurate pedigree. Um can you speak a little bit about like how this works in terms of like using that pre visit questionnaire? Yeah, absolutely. So as Ryan mentioned kind of the top of the podcast, um we've developed out a pre visit patient questionnaire that collects a lot of the information that would typically be on the pedigree and part of the appointment ahead of the appointment to to help with an accurate assessment of the patient and also to cut down on the amount of time taking that pedigree and focus more on the patient care and relationship building part of the appointment.

Um And so that tool has actually been built out to ask for sex and gender separately. That's huge. A lot of a lot of the forms don't like, I think all of us we've been patients doing things just in life and you know, I'm always very curious what they're gonna ask and what they assume and having to correct like, you know, it's just interesting to see how other healthcare providers do it. So that's just awesome. You separate that because that's that's what all forms should have agreed. And outside of your pedigree tool are there other features that you know tips have to support genetic professionals and um you know the queer and and you know gender diverse community. I think that pre visit patient questionnaire um is really great at supporting asking those questions and supporting those intake forms that are being changed to support this community. Um And it's not just about asking about the patient but also about their family and their sex assigned at birth and in separating that out from gender.

Yeah I think that's that's really really important and just great. I think when patients see that they also know they're walking into meet with healthcare providers that are also going to be accepting and not only accepting but embracing of them. Um I think when you see that ahead of time it's it's somewhat assuring that you know that you're gonna be walking into um somewhere where you're going to feel comfortable. Um So I think that's a good sign um you know as you're going in because a lot of these pre visit they're doing it before the visit. Um So I think that's really really helpful. Did you know perkinelmer genomics was one of the first laboratories to offer whole genome sequencing on a clinical basis, Whole genome sequencing can maximize clinical diagnostic yield for patients with turnaround time of four weeks for the pro band sample. Perkin Elmer's whole genome sequencing test is designed to provide access to additional valuable information compared to an ex um Perkinelmer also offers prenatal whole genome sequencing as well as ultra rapid whole genome sequencing for critically ill newborns using dried blood spots.

The ultra rapid genome has turned around time of five days and includes mido chromosomal CMB analysis, str TnR screening and biochemical analysis. Also listen back to episode 1 76 with Dr Madhuri Hegde where we explore the power of whole genome sequencing. Which also happens to be one of my favorite episodes DNA today and stay tuned for a couple more episodes of Perkinelmer. Soon discover all the perkinelmer genomics has to offer at perkinelmer genomics dot com. Him A sheer therapeutics is dedicated to developing therapies that help improve the lives of people with rare genetic diseases. Here is currently conducting a clinical trial for a potential new treatment for two ultra rare genetic metabolic diseases called pro bionic academia and methyl moronic acid E. Mia. Learn more about him. A sheer and these ultra rare metabolic diseases. In episode 1 88 of DNA today you can also visit him a sheer dot com. That's H E M O S H E A R dot com. How do you like spending the summer in my free time. I'm usually with friends at our apartment's pool.

My spot is right next to the water. Reading a book most recently a cracking creation which might come up on a future episode. I like keeping cool by sipping on some iced tea while I read. But I don't like all the sugar. So I've been enjoying sound drinks instead. Sound makes unsweetened organic sparkling waters made with tea and botanicals, no natural flavors or sugar. My father is the blueberry with cinnamon and hibiscus tea tried out by ordering at drink sound dot com. Using promo code DNA today for 20% off again. That's drink sound dot com with promo code DNA today for 20% off your order plus you're supporting the podcast. Speaking of friends in my apartment, a bunch of them have dogs and I love being able to offer them a treat when I take them for a walk or they visit my place. So I got Sundays for dogs. Now this is dog food, but it can also be used as dog treats. My friend Anne's dog frank gets so excited when he sees me and if I'm being honest, I think it's more the food than me. Sunday's for dogs is real food formulated by a vat with high quality meats, veggies, fruits and superfoods. Then air dried to perfection since your DNA to a listener, you can visit Sundays for dogs dot com and use code DNA today for 35% off your order.

Support your pup and the podcast. You know, just just thinking about all the ways that I use this. I often have patients that refer their siblings for pre conception or pregnancy sessions. Um You know I think Orion kind of tying you more into the conversation. Is there a way to avoid like reentering the pedigree for family members? Because it's going to be the same pedigree if I have someone in their sister, it's just gonna be you know, a different person that I'm pointing to is the patient. Yeah. One of the things that we tried to do very early on with the way that we built out sort of the pedigree builder and and few tips more generally with to allow those pedigrees to be able to be shared across an entire family. So there's very much an explicit mechanism within few tips so that you can link multiple family members together into that shared family. Um Some health care systems and providers really want everything to be totally isolated. Um And in that case they can they can do that.

But what we're finding is there is an increasing adoption of of sort of that maintaining that family record with those that sort of shared family history across those relatives so that the information is up to date across all of them and avoiding all of the additional sort of data entry and management that would be entailed by having them be separate. Yeah. It's a lot of extra work and as opposed to just confirming information especially if their sibling referred them there and has already told them that they're a patient there then that, you know, to me unlocks. Okay. They've already shared that information. So we can say we have a pedigree. Do you want to confirm some of this information and updated because maybe it was a year ago and then that original patient also then has an updated pedigree. So I think it works in so many different ways. Um And I think there's also people that are, you know, having pedigrees that they built somewhere and they're trying to incorporate it somewhere else. Or maybe they're listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I really have to switch to the phenotype pedigree building. Right. Um is there ways that people can import pedigrees that they built them in other software and then put it into phenotype sis?

Absolutely, yeah. So one of the big areas that we often support hospitals with is if they have a lot of existing family history information in a variety of formats. So we can do that to help them transition all of that over. But as an individual user, you can always within the tool actually import from a variety of different formats, whether it's from SEO or from a simple sort of pedophile or from Jet com formats? From older pedigree tools like cyrillic or others. So all of those are supported. Yeah. That's super helpful. And it's great that you're integrated with a lot of the major um electronic health care. You know, medical systems like I think you mentioned Cerner and Epic at the beginning, right. That, you know, those are really big ones that so many places are using, definitely I'm more familiar with us and and the new york based, but certainly I, I hear that being thrown around a lot. Um, and so it's great that it's also integrated in that because I think that would be like Jenna counselor's first question, like, can I even use this? Will this work with what I have? And um, you know, short answer is yes on that.

And um, you know, as as we start kind of wrapping up here right now, I have to ask because I kind of teased this at the beginning. I want to learn more about your role as the co leader um of the G A four G H. Pedigree standard working group because um this sounds really cool. Like what is fanatics influence in this group in your personal influence as well. Happy to talk about that for way too long. You don't have time for all of that. But yeah, no, it's it's an amazing group of people, volunteers from around the world. So the G F G H as a whole is an amazing organization sort of advocating and building standards in genomics and health care. Um, so they were, I started working with them a number of years back. I don't even seven or eight when you started with the pedigree builders and everything with the matchmaker exchange actually for rare disease patient matchmaking which was one of the first driver projects of the J for G. H. And so then after sort of finishing my my postdoc and coming and joining the company, one of the areas of development that was on their roadmap was figuring out how to sort of innovate and advance the pedigree standards that are out there and available for connecting all these different tools in this space.

So that ended up fitting very well with what we're trying to do with tips. So I was very excited by the opportunity to co lead that with Grant Wood who is actually a very long time leader in this space of family history with his work with H. L seven and G. M. C. And Intermountain Health. Um So the two of us just sort of try to I would say help facilitate the standard development amongst a group of volunteers within the working group and we're actually getting quite close to submitting that for for approval for the first version within within the th in the next couple of months. So that's that's really exciting. Is I mean I'm sure some of this is under lock and key but I have to ask because people are thinking it is there any new nomenclature that's being proposed? That's like coming down the pipeline or is it all a secret. So what I guess I would say is that the nomenclature per se is not the area in which we are developing the standards. We would leave that to the professional bodies within genetic counseling and genetics.

But the area of focus for us is in terms of the actual sort of data formats. So think of it as building on top of pet or other file formats for moving pedigrees computed lee between all the different tools to try to help versatile, making it versatile so that you can draw a pedigree and one tool and then use it for a risk assessment and another tool etcetera. So, and actually there's nothing under lock and key. So one of the important things about the G F G H is that is a fully open working group. So you can actually go and google and find the notes from every call we've had. Oh, alright, homework for the listeners. You gotta go go check that out because that's what I'm doing after this call. Amazing. That's really cool. We'll have a link to that in the show notes so people can go right there, but thank you so much for having this conversation with me. I think this is something that was overdue on the show to kind of just, you know, dive into some of this. Um in terms of just the importance and I think as I said, I had a feeling this is going to, I think really go nicely with our next episode which is gonna be um a release of the june installment of the phenotype speaker series um which we're recording on june 16th.

So um this episode will come out after that I believe. So you're listening to this the next day. Um But yeah so we'll have the episode for that next week. Um and I think that will just be great to continue this conversation there. Um But thank you so much eric and Ryan, just for sharing so much of your insight and just for having this very valuable conversation. Thank you so much kira. And people can definitely head over to fanatics dot com. Um All the information for the speaker series is on there as well under I believe it's the resources tab if I'm remembering right. Um and so you can sign up for any upcoming webinars. All of them are free. Um So it's just a great resource to check out. Um As long as well as the pedigree builder and everything, you can access a lot of like the information and just look at some of the tutorial videos on there. Um Those are really great and helpful. I've definitely taken advantage of those over the years. Um So all of that is that you know, tips dot com for more information about today's episode visit D.

N. A podcast dot com where you can also stream all episodes of the show. We encourage your questions comments, guest pitches and ideas, send them all into info at D N A podcast dot com. Search DNA today on twitter, instagram Youtube facebook so you can connect with us there and a favor. Please rate and review the podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you listen. This truly helps us climb the charts and allow more genetic nerds like yourself to find the show today is hosted and produced by myself. I mean our social media lead is Korean Merlino. Our video lead is Amanda Andrea Lee. Thanks for listening and join us next time to discover new advances in the world of genetics. We're all made of the same character.