Thank you for tuning your heart's in for another episode of the Hearts Rise up podcast. I'm carol chapman, your host along with my co host and Siri and Concetta antonelli. We share our own personal experiences, tips and strategies along with powerful stories and compelling insights from guest interviews. We're here to inspire and empower your conscious evolution, help you tap into your inner wisdom and rise to your heart centered higher self together we can rise to a higher level of consciousness, an elevated state of being and experience more love joy and freedom. Mhm Welcome back heart centered listeners. It's fabulous to be back here again for another episode of the Hearts Rise Up podcast.
I'm carol chapman, your host and I am here with a longtime friend, my featured guest dr Tanya Karam B and I want to share a little bit about Tanya before we bring her right here into the show, Dr Crombie is the best selling author of Stop worrying about your anxious child and a certified life coach who likes nothing more than teaching adults how to help their Children overcome anxiety and stress and so many struggles that are associated with that and as adults, obviously we're very well aware of stress and anxiety, but when our kids go through it it's a lot to have to deal with. Tanya has a PhD in industrial organizational psychology and an M. B. A. However, in addition to being someone with letters behind her name, she's also a mom of two teenagers who have had their own struggles with stress.
Overwhelm and anxiety all of her work as a coach, speaker, writer and facilitator is informed by her experience as a parent of anxious Children. And it's driven by her desire to help young people thrive in the high pressure, stressful world that we live in. Her work has been featured in the invisible illness ps I love you, be unique and candor, you can find her on facebook instagram linkedin, twitter and Youtube. Tanya lives outside of new Orleans with her amazing husband. To awesome teenagers. To incredibly Barkey dogs, I know that and one very feisty kitten, Tanya, I want to welcome you to the show. It's so great to be with you like you said, we go way back. So this is like having a conversation with an old friend. I love it. It is and it just seems so strange that it's been so many years, it was probably in the nineties, early to mid nineties that we started working together which is now I H g intercontinental hotels group but I just remember those days projects that we collaborated on.
It was so much fun. You were so feisty back then. I was I was young and on fire to change the world and those were good times. Yeah, we got along really great, we really collaborated well and you were one of my favorite people there. So I just wanted to tell you that I don't think I ever shared that with you. Another of one of my favorite people had filled your role previously was dale Smalley, which you never met but I think I may have talked about him at one point in time, so I something about you organizational psychologists that I get along with very well anyway, it's a pleasure to have you here and I would love for you to share a little bit about your life journey and some of the challenges that you have had to overcome, you know, there's always these defining moments or things that we come across in our lives that we have to deal with and I think it would be great for you to be able to just share some parts about your journey as to how you got to where you are today.
Just find a jumping in point, whatever feels right for you. Yeah, well there's a lot has happened since the 90s when we you and I worked together and probably the one of the biggest life changers obviously was having my two kids. That was the reason why I stopped working at the I. H. G. When I did as I decided to first just be a stay at home mom and then I founded my own coaching practice when my kids were a little bit older and what I originally wanted to do, the reason I originally founded my coaching practice and I think you're totally going to understand this carol because we worked together and I know you saw this all the time too is when I was at I. H. G. And even at the consulting firm before I worked there I would sometimes work with these executives and because I was in HR because I have this psychology degree, people do like just tell me their life story, they tell me all kinds of things. And I would hear so often from people who were at that time, you know, years older than I was who would say things like I wish I would have done something differently.
I wish I never would have gotten into this, I wish I would have gone to vet school, I wish I wouldn't be in sales, I wish and at that point in their lives I was always thinking my gosh this is that's got to be a terrible feeling to be you know have a mortgage and college kids college tuition to pay and be thinking I wish I would be doing something else. And so my first kind of focus when I started coaching was trying to work with young people to help them just figure out what they love doing So that maybe they would make better decisions and not find themselves at 50 and 55 years old saying boy I sure wish I would have gone to vet school and and that's a real example for that was a real conversation, I'm using the vet school one. So I started working with young people and then I moved into working with some adults and then my family relocated and when my family relocated, my kids were in middle school and I don't know if you remember middle school, it's awkward, but most of us remember middle school is like the worst time of our lives.
It really, it is such a hard developmental stage, you know, because you're not really a little kid, but you're not a teenager, it's awkward, you don't know who you are, you're trying to figure out desperately. You don't even care about who you are, you just want to fit in with everybody else. Actually, you don't care, you wouldn't bend yourself any way you could just fit in with everyone else around you at that age. So it was, it was a hard time for my kids and one of my Children tended to be kind of the slow to warm kid always. She was always somebody who didn't like new situations, new places, new things like that, but I never would have said she was anxious until we move and we moved. It was middle school, all the stuff, all of the things kind of hit at once and she really, really struggled and when she really, really struggled, I was looking at a kid I didn't recognize, which was terrifying as a parent and two, I was completely like paralyzed because she was suffering so much, I did not know what to do, I didn't know how to help her.
I didn't know what was going on. And then on top of that, here's the third layer of misery, I kept telling myself, I used to teach child development, I have a PhD in psychology, I should know what to do now, I should know this and I don't and I was so I was freaking out, I was beating myself up and truly out of sheer desperation, not out of any like master plan, but just I was I just felt out of control, I felt like I was snapping it, my family, I felt like I was, you know, I wasn't sleeping all the bad things, so I just said I'm going to I've got to start doing something to calm myself down and when I started doing things to calm myself down, miraculously I got a lot better at calming my daughter down. The tension level in the entire house got better and that's kind of where my journey has led and that that was my, when you say like what was a defining struggle?
That was a defining struggle and that's what my book is about. It's about a parent who like figured some things out the hard way, it wasn't through, you know, I have the scientific research, it was like, no, I hit rock bottom and I had to figure something out and voila, I did. So what were the things that you figured out that helped you, that helped calm you and that in turn helped your daughter? Well, one of the very first things that I did was I started I started again, I should say because I have started over and over and over again trying to meditate over the years. And the reason why it never really took is because I had this idea about what meditators are and what you said earlier, you said remember you were feisty back then and I was, I'm type a, I'm feisty, I curse, you know, I am foul mouth.
The people who meditate, they don't say bad words, they don't get feisty, they are calm all the time. So obviously I'm like well then that's just not for me, I can't do it. And I try to just sit there and say, nope there it goes, I can't do it. And I had, I even took a class once where we had this meditation instructor and you know, and I'm good at school, so it's a class and there was a teacher and so I was like, I want to make an A that's how my mind works, I want to make an A in this class. And the teacher told us how you know, he could sit in meditation for hours and he literally told the class, like he said, I reached Nirvana and so I was like, okay, that's the goal, that's what I need to do to, I need to sit for hours and reach Nirvana. That's what an a student looks like in this class of meditation, I can just see you doing that too. It's like, okay, I'm on a mission. Yeah, I'm going to do it, I'm going to get it done. I'm going to do it, I'm gonna, you know, clench my teeth and furrow my brow and and white knuckle my way to Nirvana, which is the exact opposite of how it works.
But I just, you know, I was like, I'm going to make this if I'm, it's like, I can think my way there, which is not what happened. So I would try and I would say, well there you go, you're not good at it again. And then I quit. And then finally again when I was really desperate when I was really like, I don't, I just need something and I already know I'm not good at this. So anything is better than nothing. I'm never going to reach Nirvana. I totally gave up with the Nirvana idea and I just said I am just going to sit here and I'm going to focus on my breath, whatever happens happens. And when I did that, I actually learned how to meditate, but when I had an idea of what I was supposed to be doing, I could never do it. And I was the other big piece of that. These two things went hand in hand and they all, they really built on each other. The other thing I started doing is I just started being nice to myself because I was like you know saying all the things about looks there you go, you can't meditate, you're not good.
This just shows you this is this is why you're failing as a mother. You know, if you're saying all these horrible things to yourself, you are never successful and what I started doing instead is saying, Look at you, you focused on your breath for 30 seconds you go girl you're doing it, you keep that's better than yesterday. And sometimes I didn't focus on my breath at all. I literally sat there and thought about what I was going to have for lunch and I was like, okay, so today wasn't your day, that's all right, we're gonna try again tomorrow and just I just took so much pressure on myself and paradoxically I suddenly was able to meditate. Whereas when I beat myself up I couldn't I would say self compassion and meditating in a way that was not crazy were the keys to my success. You know, I would say it is kind of crazy because many people just cycle through all of the negative thoughts and then you just spiral and spiral spiral and you knock yourself you knock yourself down even further and that's really you know, not helpful at all.
The fact that you were able to do that mind shift and be more gentle with yourself, have that self compassion. Give yourself a little bit of a break, Let yourself just ease into it and not be so hard on yourself that you were able to just shift things and by basically what you were doing was surrendering and breaking down the resistance, not no longer resistance. Because the more we resist something the more that the resistance persists and we don't get where we really need to go, but when we surrender and just allow things to flow and let go and let them be and we're with it over time, you are able to really kind of break down those internal barriers that you're creating for yourself and just gently moving through as opposed to button up against it basically. So kudos to you for doing that because that's really what it takes to to meditate.
I mean you just sit yourself down just be there and just focusing on something because that's really what meditation truly is its focus and it could be focusing on anything, it could be a mantra, it could be and this is just the simple stuff, you know, breath control. It could be you know, there's all sorts of types of meditation but the fact that you were able to move through that and get through the other side. Exactly and find a practice that worked for you, your own practice and at the same time that shifted some things within your family environment and your daughter, so share a little bit more about what happened once you pushed or moved through that. How did things start to change for you and unfold? Well, a couple again, it's a couple of things were happening all at the same time. So there was, I think the self compassion piece when I started showing myself just a little bit of compassion and I did it more and more a day, I also started showing compassion for everyone else around me.
And you do you just you change in the way that you respond to people, That same harsh voice that's in your head can often be the same harsh voice that comes out to others when I didn't have that harsh voice as the lead voice in my head. It wasn't the lead voice in the way I was talking to anyone else. So that was a big shift in just the entire family dynamic and instead of, you know, because a lot of anxiety is big energy and sometimes it's is angry energy, you know, it's fight flight or freeze and a lot of times it was fight. So when someone is anxious and fighting, it triggers that same reaction in you where you want to fight back. But as I was able to get more self compassion, I could react with more compassion and just and also the meditation allowed me to stay a little bit more in my own calm brain, not my anxious brain and my calm brain was able to look at this person who it from the outside looking in, it's just an angry teenager or an angry preteen throwing a tantrum or screaming or having drama.
But from the wise, compassionate part of me I could really start seeing, oh this is anxiety, this is not just a temper tantrum, this is not a disrespectful, you know, that's the kind of voice that she's being so disrespectful, she's being rude. She and and it wasn't that it was she was actually in the throes of anxiety right now, and if I can calm her down, we can have a conversation about what's happening. So share a little bit more about the learning experience for you and how you have applied it in your daily life and in your work with others, particularly in the work that you're doing to help adults deal with, because I mean, they're dealing with their own anxieties along with their kids anxieties, right? So how did things shift for you in that way, how your career unfolded and how you worked with adults and Children? Well, for me, some of the big shifts for me personally, in my own life, again, going back to what you said and what I've admitted is the whole type A thing, it's about getting stuff done, it's about accomplishments and about checking things off your to do this and you know, and that's ingrained in us from such an early age, you know, from school on, and like I said, I was a good student, that's why I have those degrees, not because I'm smarter, it's just, I like school, I like going to school, so I, you know, I did the whole school thing and I got good at that school thing and that was how I was living my life.
So a big shift for me was like realizing things that seem like or could be someone else might say or a waste of time, you know, we all have this like meditating, we could say that's that's a waste of time. I don't have time for that. I've got, I'm busy, I need to go do stuff and having to shift into my, the mindset of this actually saves time. This actually makes me more productive. This is actually so important for me to be able to be effective at work can be effective as a parent to be effective in my marriage. All of it is crucial and that was a mind, a real mindset shift for me because there was a time in my life when I would have been like I'm too busy, I'm just too, I do important things. I don't, that meditation thing that's not important and then I realized actually it's one of the most important things that I do and I have to make time for it. So that's how I kind of transition myself and then in my work and the way that I work with parents, I do a lot of the same things helping parents see and it's not easy to see because it wasn't easy for me to see what I really wanted when I, when my child was struggling was for someone to fix my child.
I want to take that, you know, take my child and take care of her and take and do that. And really it's a mindset shift for parents to see how doing things for themselves actually will help their Children. It wasn't the thing that I thought of first, it's certainly like I said, I didn't do this because I thought, oh if I just start meditating and showing some self compassion and doing thought work and these sorts of activities that I'm going to help my child. I thought I'm feeling out of control here and I need to do something just to get a little bit of control back. And I also, in all honesty, I had been coaching and I actually taught high school class where I have been telling other people to meditate for years, years and years and years while not meditating myself. And so that was another like, you know, maybe that thing that I've been telling everyone else they should be doing, maybe I should try that and just see because I've been telling other people to do it.
That's how I know all the research I've read about it. I know it works yet. I'm not doing it, you got to walk your talk Exactly. Exactly. And sometimes I think we think or at least people like me, people who go to school forever. I have this idea sometimes about things that if I have, if I could take a test on it then that's good enough. Like if you would have given me a test on what does meditation do and what are some practices, I could have passed the test but I wasn't doing it. And so the idea, I kind of thought, oh I know it in my head. So that's the important thing and that's not the important thing that's like learning about exercise but not actually exercising you'll never get big muscles reading books about working out. That's right. Have you taught meditation or do you offer it in your practice the coaching that you do? I offer some mindfulness meditation practices. I offer some different tools just to bring us right back into the present moment. That type of meditation, I don't consider myself like you know, I know there's some transcendental meditation and some pretty deep types of meditation that I could not teach.
What's a tool that you often go to to help people in a moment of panic or stress or anxiety to help them calm themselves down. My number one go to is always our breath. The breath is on one hand it is that cliche, we all are like oh we've all heard that take a breath, you know and we kind of roll our eyes and certainly I remember when I first started with my own child saying you need to take a breath, you need to breathe. She was like that too. It doesn't work. It doesn't work well, it didn't work because one, she was being told to take a breath by somebody who was kind of anxious at the moment too. So the energy was totally off there. You can't help an anxious person when you two are anxious as a general rule. But the other thing about the breath, even though we it's cliche, it's cliche because it works. There's a reason why every religious tradition talks about the breath.
There's a reason why breath is in our language. We say things like it left me breathless. It took my breath away. We need to take a breath. We say it in our because it is a thing, it really does matter. It really works. And it's always with us. You know, you don't need a tool, you don't need to go get something, your breath is always there. So I do a lot of long, slow deep breathing. And when you are consciously taking long, slow deep breaths, filling up your lungs, filling up your belly, inhaling and then exhaling all of that out physiologically you are sending a signal to your brain that it can calm down. The part of your brain that is in that panic flight or freeze mode is getting a message that says it's all okay. I'm getting lots of oxygen.
It's all okay. So it truly works. It works, you know, psychologically it works physiologically, it's always there. So I go to the breath all the time. I have others, lots of others, you know, wiggle your toes and do other things. But the breath is a great one. You know, also in such a time right now, particularly, you know, with the pandemic going on, there's probably more and more people that are dealing with different types of stress and anxiety just as a result of that, everything is moving at such a fast rapid pace that it's like a big whirlwind of activity around us. And it's really hard two pull yourself out of that Because, you know, you're basically on 24/7 practically because everywhere you go there's the media or there's a digital device or there's a deadline or there's a commitment or there's something that people have to do and even now things have shifted dramatically because of the pandemic.
Some of that has stopped. But you still have all of the digital and virtual stuff in the media that's there, but not so much the physical contact. What have been in your experience is the biggest challenge is that people are experiencing today with all that is changing in the world, particularly with respect to what you're seeing in the areas of anxiety and panic attacks and stress and how, how best to deal with that now. Well, all the research and everything that I see is that it's definitely increasing the statistics are saying that the best guest researchers have is that as much as a third of teenagers are going to have a full blown panic Or anxiety disorder, not just, you know about of anxiety, but a full blown disorder by the time they're 18. And when you think about that, that that number is astounding.
Some of that is just temperament wise. You know, there's a lot of research that says 20% of the population is just more sensitive to their environment and stimulation and all sorts of things. And those people who are more sensitive also tend to be more prone to being anxious because they're just picking up a lot of stuff. But then in addition to that, yes, the world, the world and the stuff is making it harder. Yes, social media is making it harder. The pressures, the kids are feeling, the pressures to have it all figured out by the time they finish high school and know where they want to go to college and what they want to be? And we don't even realize it as adults, we're just trying to make conversation with these kids and we'll say, oh, so what do you want to be when you grow up in? You know, they're like, oh my God, I should know what I want to be and they should, they shouldn't know and it's okay not to know, but they feel like they should and they're comparing themselves to others and they're comparing themselves to a whitewashed, you know, superficial idea of others, not reality and we all do that to some extent, but I think the older you are, the more perspective you can put it in, the more you can tell yourself.
Well I know Barb looks beautiful on the beach and Aruba right now, but I also know that Barb's life isn't perfect, whereas when you're young you're just saying barbs on the beach in Aruba, her life is perfect. The kids are having a hard time and that isolation or you know, not being with their peers at a critical development time when that's all that they want to do, it's not great for their mental health, it's really causing a lot of them to struggle and parents aren't equipped, parents aren't equipped and we really grew up in such a different age that I don't think we always are aware of what it's like for them. I hear parents say it all the time and I'm sure I'm guilty of thinking it as well as sort of the like, you know, when I was their age and I didn't get invited to the party or you know, whatever we think we think, well that wasn't that big a deal, but we also don't realize that when all of our friends did left us out or you know, did something without us over the weekend, we didn't know about it until monday when our friends got to school and it became clear that they had done something without you.
You know, the minute it happens now, you see it on snap maps, you see where they are and you're like, oh, they're all together and I'm not and those kind of things at that age, when all that you want to do is be part of that group is so hard. They're comparing themselves. Yes. And the comparisons aren't real, right? There's so much competition. They don't have as much experience at sitting with bad feelings. We didn't have things to distract us from our bad feelings. Like they do. We had to kind of sit with them now if and and we're guilty. I do it now too. I sometimes have that like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting here at this this place waiting for my friend to show up and I'm feeling awkward because I'm all alone. So I'm going to scroll through my phone so I don't have to feel so awkward. I'm going to text someone and we do it without even knowing that's what we're doing. But that's what we're doing. We're avoiding that awkward uncomfortable feeling. And our kids have never had to feel those awkward uncomfortable feelings because they always had something to distract them always.
And so when they are forced to sit with them they feel like they're dying, they feel like this is this is so terrible, I don't know how you know how I can get through it, I don't know if it's ever going to end because they've never had to do it before and I think some parents these days have probably done a good job of setting some ground rules, you have to have some downtime away from your phone away from social media, away from all the devices, that sort of thing. What's your point of view on that? I think it's so important and at the same time I think it is so difficult and I think it has gotten even harder with the pandemic because You are constantly trying to walk the line between you know, I don't want you on devices 24 hours a day and I understand that the only way you're connecting with your peers is on your devices so I am trying to be a little more lenient than I used to be. So it is it's a hard thing to figure out what's best for them.
However, I will say that there were times with my kids where the punishment you know the only punishment that works with the teen is to take away their phone and my kids would say how much less anxious they felt when I took their phones away from them, they wanted it back but it also they did admit that it makes it makes the anxiety level go down and you know, it's interesting comments you had made earlier about and I think it was probably about, you know, when we were kids or years ago we had to be with our feelings, we had kind of had to be with those bad feelings. We didn't have the luxury of the device right here to practice avoidance and divert our attention away from it and not face the feelings. And I think when you have that opportunity to just be with your feeling, it's so much easier to move through it once you're just sitting with it feeling it and then just let it go and it's not that easy to do that today because kids have an out an easy out with the so many distractions.
We didn't have those distractions. Absolutely. And and what kids do is kids will dump their feelings on their parents. That's another just way that they've learned to process. And and we did it to, you know, you come in and you dump everything on your parents and then you feel better and your parent feels terrible. But back in our day, if we wanted to dump, we only had, you know, limited hours where we could do that. Now they can text you from school and they do and they text you to say, you know, I got a detention and this is so unfair and blah blah blah and then they've kind of dumped their feelings and they've moved on and then the parents sitting around thinking, well this is terrible, what should maybe I should do something. Maybe this is also kind of created a little bit of what we see with. Sometimes the helicopter parenting is the kids are just dumping because they can and they can do it all the time now because they can call you or text you and then parents feel like, well obviously I need to do something, you don't necessarily need to do anything and you have to know actually what that was was just my kid dumping on me.
My kid just needed to get those feelings out. I'm a safe place and now we can move on, but we don't always realize that that's right. And I think that if we could teach our kids a little less doing and a little more being might help to alleviate some of the stress and anxieties that they are dealing with today because it gives us the opportunity to get more in touch with our feelings and our emotions because when we're being, we're in it, we're feeling it as opposed to doing because doing is really just a distraction of doing something externally and you're not really paying attention to what's going on emotionally and in your body and that that's I think that's something that kids could practice more of these days. Anyway, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your journey and your experience, Just a couple of other questions. One in particular to the first one is what advice do you have for others to tap into their heart and rise up to?
They're heart centered, higher self. I think really exactly what we were just saying, I think that when we stop doing and stop trying to avoid and start just feeling what we're feeling being in the moment, you know, practicing some of the techniques that I, we talked about, just the breathing so that you can just be present. I think that is the first step to becoming your best self really, that's great advice and then just my last parting question here, besides asking where people can find out more about you, but if you had a genie in the bottle and that genie is your inner genius and you only had one wish, what would you wish for? I would wish that all of the people, obviously I care a lot about kids, but actually I would say this is true for all people. I wish all people would look at the fact that they have anxiety because pretty much all of us do to some extent or another and some of us really struggle and I would wish that the people who struggle would be able to see it not as something is wrong with me or that they are damaged in some way, but instead look at it as a byproduct or a side effect of something amazing about them because that almost as far as I have seen, I have yet to find an exception to that every person I've ever known who really struggles with anxiety has something amazing about them that also tends to make them a little bit more prone to being anxious.
You know, there impacts, they are super compassionate people, they read energy, they are good with like they're like creative, maybe they see the world in a different way and they feel big feelings, which makes them great artists, musicians, whatever, and that also makes them feel bigger feelings with the anxiety. So instead of this idea, I'm anxious, therefore I'm broken or I'm anxious, therefore something's wrong. I would love it to be, I'm awesome. Therefore sometimes I feel anxious, that's my wish, right? And in some respects, that can actually be a gift totally. It is a gift. It is a gift. I have a little tiny story of my daughter who has struggled with anxiety, as I said, she is a, she teaches gymnastic, she teaches little bit of kids and there's a child In one of her classes who is on the spectrum. And so because he's on the spectrum, lots of stimulation overwhelms him as a gym full of like 700 little kids taking a gymnastics class, you can imagine it's loud and so there's times that, he he gets overwhelmed and she told me the other day said, yeah, mom, I'm the only one who knows what to do.
I'm the only one who can help him when he feels this way and I'm like, what an awesome gift. She wouldn't have had that had she not had to learn how to deal with her own overwhelm you know, so it can be a gift. That is so true and that's a great note to end things on. So where can people find out more about you? You have a website and its guidance for the future, guidance for the future? So we'll make sure we put that in the notes. Oh no its guidance for the future and then you have your book, stop worrying about your anxious child and you have that on your website. Is it on amazon, yep, it's on amazon Barnes and noble. Okay, so it's everywhere, Well everywhere, yep. Okay, are you currently writing another book? I am, I am writing, stop worrying about your anxious teenager right now. Okay, awesome, Well we'll look forward to that. When do you expect to have that ready for publication or do you have a date yet? I don't have a date. I am, it is just getting into the editing phase. So I am not sure, but I'm you know, fingers crossed, it won't be too too long.
Okay, that sounds great and I know that you're also on facebook instagram linkedin twitter and youtube. So we'll be sure to provide links in the show notes for those as well. And I just want to thank you so much. It's just been wonderful to reconnect with you and to bring you on the show and I just want to thank you so much for being here today. Thank you. And I didn't say it earlier, but you were one of my favorite people to work with too. So I am thrilled that we're connected again in this way. This is so awesome. Yeah, thank you for that. Alright, there you go. Heart centered listeners. It's been a beautiful session today and I just want to thank you so much for joining us. Be sure to go to our website for information on our new community on Mighty Networks. Or you can go to our website, hearts rise up.com or you can search on the mighty networks platform. The hearts rise up community. And you can find us there and you can also find some free downloads on our website, a meditation, access your inner wisdom with a 21 day journal.
And there's some other guided meditations on the site as well. We also have a new course that we launched back in the fall which is called the heart resonance primer. So you can check that out and we'll have links to all of those in the show notes. So I just want to thank you again for being here and until next time. Have a wonderful heart center day. Bye for now. Mhm. We hope today's show helped to bring a bit more joy and happiness into your heart. We hope it inspired you to unleash your inner power and rise up to your best and loving heart centered, highest self. We'd be grateful if you'd leave us a review on itunes. Those reviews are important to spreading this valuable message. We'd love for you to subscribe to our podcast and share the show with others, visit hearts rise up dot com for heart centered courses, guided meditations and are popular notes from your higher self until next time. Keep rising up and may all that you love thrive.