Hello to all of you Hearts rise up podcast listeners, Thank you for tuning your heart's in for another episode. I'm carol chapman, your host for today on this podcast. We share our own personal experiences, tips and strategies, along with powerful stories and compelling insights from guests that we interview on the show. Our purpose is to inspire you to rise up to your best and highest self, tap into your own inner wisdom and elevate your state of being, your life and the world around you. It's that simple. So let's get right into today's episode. I am so excited to introduce our guest, Lauren Seppala Lauren is the author of the I N. F. J. Writer, a guide for sensitive intuitive writers. She's also the author of the I N. F. J revolution and firefly magic heart powered marketing for highly sensitive writers.
She's also a writing coach for writers of the I N F J and I N. F. P personality types and blogs about writing creativity and personality theory at Lauren Seppala dot com. She currently lives in san Francisco Lauren. I want to welcome you to the show. Hi carol, thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. Hey, this is so wonderful to have you and I just love the topic of anything that has to do with I NFS basically and because I'm an introvert myself, so it's just wonderful to kind of dive right in here. But I would love for you to share a little bit more about what you're doing these days and what led you into writing these books and the work that you're doing as a coach. Well I love that you said that you're so interested in the I. N. F. Angle because a lot of people get hung up on I. N. F. J. R. I. N. F. P. Which one am I? Um And for those who don't know these are personality types on the Myers Briggs personality system.
The P. And the J. Are not that important to me personally to me, I focus on the introverted, intuitive feeler side. I myself am an I. N. F. J. And I started a writing blog about almost seven years ago about my problems with writing. Um At that time I didn't think that there was any link between me being an I. N. F. J. And the fact that I had trouble writing fiction, trouble finishing things, trouble outlining. I just thought I had troubles. Well I started to do a little bit of research into my personality type and then I started coaching. And the people who were coming to me all happened to be of my same personality type. They were drawn to me from my blog articles because I was doing a little bit of writing articles, a little bit of personality articles and lo and behold they were having the same problems that I had always had writing fiction, writing memoir, they couldn't outline. Um They had a really hard time forcing themselves to finish stories, being productive, moving down checklists working in linear order.
And that's when I saw the pattern. And after I worked with. Yeah, I was going to say that's definitely a big pattern. Yeah, it was huge. I mean, just really kind of hit me over the head. And after I worked with so many I N F J and I N. F. P people, I said I need to write a book on this because there were a lot of people out there who either couldn't afford coaching. I didn't have, you know, the bandwidth to coach all the time in the world. So I thought, well, if I wrote a book, I could just hand them this book and say, here, take this and you can run with it. And that's sort of where I got where I am today. It was a very organic process that unfolded very naturally. Well, you know, it's really interesting that you say that about I NFS, because, you know, being an I N F myself, I have kind of struggled with some similar things as well. And I think that as an I N. F, the way that we approach things is a little bit different. And I would love for you to share a little bit more about how you approach it basically with your clients. And and then I'd love to find out a little bit more about your own personal journey and the things that you have struggled with because this podcast is really all about helping people to rise up to their best self.
And so everyone has a personal story to share. So it'd be great for you to share that. But also how you approach your clients particularly with this type. Yeah. Well, what I teach is intuitive writing, which is very different than rational writing. If you go online and you look around at writing culture, you by writing craft books, you google, you know how to write a novel, 99% of what you're going to get back is rational writing methods, which tells you that you start with an idea for a story, you outline it, you might even detailed, outline it like two scene breakdowns, character list, plot points, story, art. And then you write according to the outline, a lot of rational riders will give you a little bit of leeway with outline like, oh, you know, sometimes things change or you have to adjust, but you're supposed to always stick to the outline, You have this mental idea and you're supposed to push it out of your brain until you're finished and along the way, you should be seeking feedback. So, you write, you know, the first three chapters and you give it to your critique group and then you work with that feedback.
This seems on the surface like something that could work. This seems like a very common sense of, okay. However, for N. F. P. And I in fj people, this is disastrous. It's very damaging. It doesn't work for N. F. J. Or N. F. P. People at all. In fact, it can really paralyze them completely, shut them down creatively working according to an outline just plain doesn't work intuitive people. I enough people who are intuitive people, they do not get an idea and mentally push it out of their brain. They receive characters, they receive emotions into their body in the form of fragments, incomplete fragments. And as they're writing during their creative process, they are pulling those fragments out of their body and transcribing them on the page. This is a slow process. This is a very uncertain process. Sometimes it goes fast. Sometimes it goes slow.
It's a process that is tuning into feminine energy which is receiving and working in cycles ebb and flow, letting the seed ripens, letting the seed itself set the schedule of when it will be born. Rational writing methods are rooted in masculine energy being productive, outward directed, results oriented, achievement oriented, intuitive writing is again feminine, It's relationship oriented. It's being in relationship with the characters, it's being in relationship with the work. So if you are entering into an intuitive writing method or relationship, you have a lot less control. You don't push things out on a schedule. You know, it's not like, well, I'm going to sit down monday through friday and I'm going to write 1000 words. That's not how it works. Some weeks, you'll write very little, some weeks, you'll write a lot. It's not really up to you. All you can do is continue to show up and be as open as you can be, which can be very scary, intuitive variety and takes us to very vulnerable places.
Oh, I love this. I love how you are really explaining this because it really does make so much sense for someone like me being an I. N. F. And how I tend to approach my writing and I think it would be helpful to share a little bit more about how you stumbled into this because as a result of your own I. N. F. Profile, how you stumbled into this and the struggles that that you had as a result of it and then how you overcame it. Yeah. Well I had a really weird kind of difficult childhood. My mom died when I was 11. I had a little brother, he died when I was eight. Um I was then raised by my grandmother, she died when I was 16. I ended up living alone the last year that I was in high school. My mother had left me the big farmhouse we all lived in. So I lived in that house completely alone and my father was a very high functioning alcoholic workaholic also surgeon.
So I mean he worked literally 90 hours a week and when he wasn't working, he was drinking, he and my mom had gotten divorced, he'd gone off, he had another family for more kids. It was a very intense childhood filled with a lot of a lot of challenges and a lot of illness and a lot of addiction. Everyone else in my family was also practicing alcoholic. I always call myself a non practicing alcoholic. So I went off to college and alcohol was like, my first go to, you know, to self soothe to deal with my emotions to deal with anything from the past. I didn't want to look at, I drank and I was very, very good at it and I drank hard for seven years. Um I always wanted to write when I was in college, I took creative writing classes. I did horribly. I couldn't finish anything. My teachers hated me. One of my professors told me, I just wasn't very good and I needed to find something else to do and I was so crushed and I said, well, can I get better at it? What if I practice? And she said, no, I don't, I don't think so, I don't think you can because that's the way that's the way that they taught though, right?
I mean, they taught the opposite basically the way that you were explaining how people normally are taught to write, where you create an outline and you kind of work that way as opposed to relational. Oh yeah, I mean that's what we were urged to come up with a good idea for a short story, right? The short story and then we're gonna give it to 30 people in the class and everyone's going to critique you and I mean, I was just this really left me as like a quivering pile of meat jelly, I was just so nervous, I hated talking in front of people, having all these people face me and ripped my story to shreds the story I hated. Anyway, it was horrible, so I thought, well maybe she's right, you know, I want to write, but I don't enjoy writing, it's so hard for me, um no one else likes my writing and I seem very blocked unless I was pushing myself to get through an assignment, I was just very creatively paralyzed. So I moved to Seattle, I was a career alcoholic there for four years and then I moved to san Francisco mainly to get away from Seattle where I thought I was going to die of alcoholism and I got sober in san Francisco and a year after I got sober, I joined a different kind of writing program that was one hour of silent writing once a week, there was no critique, there was no sharing, no one asked what you were working on, no one cared what you're working on, you know, we just all showed up together strangers and we just wrote silently for one hour and that worked, it was like the weirdest thing, but I was like, this is actually working.
I'm writing stuff, I don't think it's very good and I don't know what I'm writing, but I am writing one hour a week. Wasn't a structured group that you were working with, you know, it wasn't just sort of like an informal kind of more of a formal or informal, it was a paid program. So I paid monthly to go to this place and be part of it. But there was no, there was not really any structure other than, you know, we started at seven o'clock on the dot and we wrote for one hour and then they'd say, okay, you know, your time is up, we would exchange pleasantries as we were coming and going, but nobody had any credentials, there was no teaching, it was just a place to meet and that it just really, really worked for me and I ended up going to that program for two years and writing my first memoir Between the Shadow and Low, which is now published and is about my four years of alcoholic darkness in Seattle. That really worked because there was no pressure. I didn't feel like I had to write an order. I didn't feel like I had to write in chapters some weeks I would go and write 300 words and just sit there and stare at the wall for the next 40 minutes, some weeks I would write like I was on fire, you know, and I would cram 1500 words into the hours.
But no one was asking me, how much did you get done? You know, How much are you accomplishing? When are you going to be finished? It was like this secret private world I had with my writing and that was what got me through the creative blocks. That was what opened up that creative channel. And so that was the way I started writing. And I after that program ended I ended up forming my own writing group based on the same principles. We show up once a week. We do an hour of writing if you want to share you can. But as a rule we don't generally share. There's no critique. Mm hmm. Um There's no mapping or outlining. Just write whatever comes to you and coincidentally or maybe not. So coincidentally my first writing group. Everybody in the group was an N. F. P. Except for me. I was an in fj. That was my first tip off like, huh, this is interesting. There's something here. Then I started my blog. Then I started doing more research and writing in fj articles and that's when my clients started showing up and that's when I saw, oh, other people feel just as much in despair as I did.
They feel so frozen and unable to move forward. And there's this horrible feeling of self doubt. Like I want to be a writer but I'm just not cut out for it. So why do I still want to do it so badly, why don't I just give up? But I can't give up, you know? And I've heard the same exact phrases out of people's mouths like, this is the thing I want to do. If I die with my book inside of me, I will die an unfulfilled person. Is that what kept you going? You know? That's what kept me going, was just little baby steps. Was seeing how okay this is working. Maybe it's unconventional, maybe it's not exactly how I want things to look, but things are working a little bit and then a little bit more and that's really life, it's like piece after piece and that's how my novel started coming to me, piece after piece, fragment after fragment, just keep going forward. Little little baby steps and it's kind of like the transformation that occurred for you was not sudden, It was really subtle and just morphed over time in in terms of just helping you to shift your life and shift your perspective and shift what you were doing and believe in yourself.
Oh yeah, when I first quit drinking, I mean, my plan was that, you know, my boyfriend at the time gave me an ultimatum and he said if you don't quit drinking, I'm going to leave you? So I thought I'll quit drinking for one year and that will prove to everyone around me that I'm not an alcoholic. Of course I knew I was an alcoholic. I totally knew that, but I was like, oh, if I can prove I'm not then I can go back to drinking and I won't have the consequences to deal with. So I took that year off and then, you know, month after month, I was really seeing changes. Like, wow, I feel a lot better. Oh, my finances are better. Huh? Now I got a new job. I like my new job better. You know? It was a slow, gradual process. Yeah. You were seeing with the positive changes as you were kind of going through that. What other things were happening in your life? Well, I was trying a lot of new things and I realized that when I was an alcoholic and when I was drinking every day, it was really about control. My addiction was about control. My exploration of self destruction was about control.
When I was drinking, I was very afraid to try anything new. I would even go to the same bars over and over, I would drink the same things over and when I stopped drinking, I was in unfamiliar territory and that was really scary. I didn't have my crutches. I didn't have, you know, even if they were dysfunctional, they were my strategies and I didn't have those anymore. So I was sort of forced to try new things and move on to new territory and that was where the big changes started to happen was that I started trying little new things, you know, like, well maybe I will go to this party, someone invited me to, even if I'm not drink, you know, or even like maybe I will try to cook scalloped potatoes this weekend, even though I don't think I'm a very good right, You know, doing things that I thought I wasn't very good at or I was afraid if I failed, people would laugh at me, that kind of stuff started to come in in my sober years and I realized how valuable that is moving outside of our comfort zone and you are creating new patterns, new ways of being and that's really what growing and transformation is all about is being able to let go of what really wasn't working and find new ways and new avenues to make things work in your life.
Yeah, that was what I really found, it was. The control piece was huge for me, letting go of control was very helpful. I think for a lot of people, um, control can be a huge issue, particularly if if you're trying to live up to other people's expectations that sometimes you want to be in complete control of of how you are living up to those expectations or even your own expectations or your own desires. But sometimes the best thing that you can do is just get out of your own way, definitely. So do you have a personal philosophy that you live by and that you've applied in your life as a result of what you've been through? Well it's pretty um it's pretty simplistic, but even even if it sounds simple, it is hard to do. My personal philosophy is just go with it. And I tell myself this Probably 10 times a day still because when I was drinking and even in the years after that I've always had control issues.
And when you live in fear, when you live in this little box where you feel like I have to measure up to other people's expectations, I have to keep up a certain appearance. You're always trying to look ahead and predicting control. How is the day going to go, what's going to be expected of me? We're going to go to lunch at this new restaurant, okay, what am I gonna order? I have to figure it out now, I can't be caught off guard so that when new things happen or unexpected things happen or you hit little snags or difficulties, it can be very hard and you can have this outsized reaction to it and that still happens to me. I have a four year old son and there is nothing like a little kid to upset all of your control mechanism because they want to do what they want to do that they will resist you at every turn. So now I really just say, okay, just go with it. Just go with life as it is unfolding in this moment without making a judgment about whether it's good or bad or if things are going to totally go off the rails in a few minutes, just go with it and trust. And that takes a lot of trust in feeling unseen support around you.
You know, like, okay, I'm not all alone. I don't have to control everything because I'm not this isolated party that's being attacked by reality and I'm fighting it out by all by myself. You know, you're like, no, I have, I have my allies, I have my angels, I have my higher power, whatever it is for you, but just going with it opens you to trust and flow and you're just practicing it in all aspects of your life. And I would imagine that really flows over into how you work with your clients. You know, it does and I am practicing it, but I do want to underscore that I still have my difficulties too. You know, because I talked to clients, I talked to writers and they're like, well, you just have it all figured out you're a full time writer, You're living your dream. You just must wake up every morning and have a cup of green tea and meditate and then do some yoga and I'm like, oh no, like that is not my life. Like I still get stressed, I still snap at people, I still still do things that later. I'm like I'm kind of embarrassed that I did that I'm still human and that's part of it.
I think sometimes we think we're going to get to this place that we're not really human anymore, we're just perfect. Right? If we read enough self help books or meditate enough and that's not true, that's not accurate. Well, you know, I like to use the term leading learner because we're all learning and some of us are leading the charge and helping others along the way, but we're still learning as we're going, it's always an ongoing process. That's what I tell people ups and downs. So it would be wonderful to know what what's on the horizon for you right now, in terms of the things that you're that you're currently working on right now, I know you've got some immediate things that you're some projects that you're working on, love for you to share those and then what amazing things are asked, you know, future aspirations are on the on the agenda that you could share. Well, I am an N. F. J. So, my forecast out is long, but right now in 2020, I have my first two memoirs out between the shadow and low is the first one, the sequel to that is west of San Francisco.
I'm going to be releasing the third in the trilogy and the last one enormous forces probably around September 2020. So I'm working to get that manuscript in shape. I'm also going to be working on writing a book called intuitive Writing, which is going to go even deeper into the intuitive writing process for I. N. F. J. And I N. F. P people. I just finished an online course that was very intense, a really wonderful experience all about intuitive writing. It was a five week class. But I was contacted by so many people I put the cap at 30 people and so many people wanted to get in who couldn't That I want to create something, a self directed course where um if people can't, you know, they don't get in on time, like they missed the 30 person mark or they can't afford the five week class. This is at a different price point and it's open to everybody. And I'll be releasing that in January and that will be a video course on intuitive writing. Oh, I love that. And I love those memoirs that you're writing as well. I want to make sure that we include those whatever you have now and any information that you have on your site.
I would love to have those in the show notes so that we could share those with others. And there's also an online summit, I. N. F. Summit that you're um collaborating on. Oh yes, we're doing that in february. Tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. So I'm doing that with my friend Jazz Khadafi, he's an I. N. F. P. And he runs the I. N. F club online. If you just google I N. F club, you'll find it. He's an FBI man, I N. F J. We've been friends, we wanted to put together a virtual summit for I N. F J and I N. F. P people covering a broad range of topics, you know what it's like to be a highly sensitive person in health, in relationships, dealing with our unconventional creativity, um you know, dealing with what we eat and how we are in the world and body image like just everything. So we've got some really really great speakers that I'm so excited about um that will be in february. We have Jacob Norby author of Blessed are the weird, we have to Cashel author of the empath journey.
We've got some really, really great authors and coaches and speakers who are going to be given so much good information for in FJ nine people and that's it. We'll be at the I N. F summit dot com. Okay, I N. F summit dot com. We'll put that in the show notes. Yeah, I think it would be helpful to know what the what the challenges are for I Nfs and highly sensitives and and and maybe just to if you could describe a little bit more about what those characteristics are. Well if you go on google and you google anything about M. B. T. I. Or Myers Briggs for I. N. F. J. I. N. F. P. It will give you sort of, you know the list of functions that you have introverted intuition or extroverted intuition, introverted feeling. All of that. What they don't say is how being a nine F chair, being an N. F. P. Is almost always linked to also being an empath and also being a highly sensitive person, highly sensitive person, being, you are sensitive to physical things. You know, like a scratchy tag in your clothing, really strong sense, loud noises but also emotional stuff and that's where the empath piece comes in in FJ nine FP people absorb other people's emotions very very easily.
I always say with my clients, I said you know they think they're just like normal people but they're kind of weird. Normal people, quote unquote. Their energy field is probably about half a foot out from their body in FJ nine FP people, it's about 12 ft out from their body. It's very porous. Like you've described me to a T. I. N. F. P. It's very porous. So they might be sitting at their desk in an open office plan. Somebody walks by them, they get all their stuff, you know they get that person's mood, you know that person's fears what they're going through. Their worries like they just get this little downloaded packet sometimes that's cool. Most of the time it's not, most of the time, it's hard to deal with and then you have to deal with it. Exactly. So I'm curious what advice would you give to others who are who are living with or interacting with highly sensitive and I. N. F. Types. It is hard for other people who are living with an empath or a highly sensitive person because we are so sensitive, it's just going to be a learning process.
The best advice I can give to highly sensitive people themselves is go easy on yourself. The thing we most tend to do is self judge so we'll get that toxic dump from someone else or we'll go to the christmas party and then we can't sleep all night and I'm like what's wrong with me? I just need to get over it. What's wrong with my nervous system? You can't help it, You're not going to change it. Your nervous system is what it is, It's okay. There's nothing wrong with you. You don't need to push yourself to be different and you don't need to beat yourself up. Oh I did this again, this happened again. No it's just part of your existence. That's the way it's going to be right and because others out there that aren't like that uh you know, doesn't mean that you can't be who you are and just be true to that because otherwise you'll just drive yourself crazy. Exactly and a lot of highly sensitive people do drive themselves crazy. A lot of highly sensitive people really really struggle with self deprecation. That's a big one, you know, I can certainly relate to that. Well this has been a great conversation and I would love to kind of move into just a sort of a rapid fire kind of round two, just you know, pick out some fun and interesting insights about you.
Are you ready for me to ask a few other questions? Okay, if you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be? I would have to say that I would be a willow tree just because I know willow trees are usually found your water and I really feel a strong connection with water. Oh I love that, I love just the way the willow trees just you know they're so free flowing aren't they? Yeah, I love them, they're free, very free if you were a bird or animal, what would that be? You know, This might sound weird, but the first thing that comes to mind is a raccoon, I really think I would be a raccoon there so crafty, they're very observant, you know and they kind of get in there where other people can't get, maybe they shouldn't be. I tend to do that with my coaching sessions, I really get in there. Yeah, that makes sense. Really does, you know. Yeah and do you have a favorite color blue again, probably the water affinity. Yeah, exactly and favorite sent, you know I love lavender. I use lavender to relax quite a bit.
And that's one of my favorites. I also really like lemon. The lemon just sort of picked me up. Mm hmm. It's very refreshing. Yeah. I love lemon too. And I do love lavender. So that's that's great. What about favorite drink? Oh, I'm a tea drinker. I will drink any kind of tea. I drink tea day in day out. It's my comfort beverage. Yes, it's great. And you have a favorite book. This is okay. This is hard. I'm going to say one of my favorite authors is Jack Kerouac. I absolutely love him. I love his book, Big Sur. It's a very, very dark book. I also love The Brothers Karamazov by dostoevsky. Big dostoyevsky. Another very dark book. Interesting what inspires you other writers inspire me. And you know what my clients really inspire me when I do a coaching session with someone. And I see them just really go into their dark places and pull out these pieces that are so uncomfortable to look at. That just really motivates me to do the same for myself because it's it's hard work and these people are showing up every day to do it.
And they're not even flinching. It's it's really admirable. Yeah. It's amazing that when you when you know that you're helping others that in and of itself can be a real inspiration just to keep you going. What helps you feel grounded and centered I would say. And sometimes this also makes me feel completely crazy and disoriented, but my four year old son, um there's nothing like sitting down with a small child and just looking at the grass, you know, looking at bugs hanging out, playing with a train set. You know, it's, it doesn't get more simple than that and you can just kind of sit there like I don't need to answer all of my email right now. I don't need to like get on the to do list right now. I can just kind of sit and play with blocks or like draw a picture and it doesn't even matter if it's good, you know, that's that is very centering. I love that because that gives you really that opportunity and also the opportunity you know, to experience just being present and and you know, just being fully present and being present with your your child and you know, seeing what is right there in front of you as opposed to being distracted by all the things that are going on in the world.
It's um it really teaches us a lot about ourselves when as we get older because we're also used to having all the distractions and taking that opportunity that really gives you that sense of not only freedom, but also just being totally present and spending time with your boy that's great. Do you have any advice for others to help them rise up to their best and highest self I would say two things. Number one baby steps. So much of the time we think we have to decide on this grand goal and get to that grand goal in like 30 days. You know, our culture really pushes that. But it's all about baby steps. And number two is to always remember whenever you have a big period of expansion, you know, you try something new, you accomplish something, you really open up, you really expand, you go to a new level almost always after that you're going to have this period of contraction. That is the way of nature expansion and contraction.
That's how we grow. And I think sometimes that contraction we have the big accomplishment and then we feel a little bit depressed in the days following. And we tend to beat ourselves up for that. Well, I just had this great victory. Why am I so depressed? What's wrong with me? It's normal expansion and contraction. When you go through the contraction periods. Nothing is wrong with you. It's just your natural cycle expansion and contraction. I love that. That's so helpful to keep in mind with personal growth work. So one is baby steps and the other is just keep in mind the expansion and the contraction that's normal and just lean into it. Just be with it. Um and allow it to flow and you'll be fine. That's great. It's great to have you on the show and I'd love for you to share where people can learn more about you. Well, they can learn all about me at my site, Lauren Seppala dot com. It's L A U R E N A S A P A L A dot com. My blog is their links to all my books. Are there links to all my videos? Are there my contact page, is there? I love getting email. Please contact me.
Everything is there? You can also just go to amazon and type in my name and all of my books will come up and I'm frequently on twitter. That's probably the platform that I'm on the most tweet at me. You know, if you see me there, follow me tweeting me like, hey, I heard you on the show. Like I'd love to be friends. I'm really open to talking on twitter with anybody awesome. We'll put all of that in the show notes. So everyone can actually find all of your links, which would be great. And I know that you have a free gift to that you offer on your site. Tell us a little bit more about that. Oh, yes. So if you go to my site right on the homepage, sign up for my newsletter and you get two free chapters of the I N. F J revolution and one of the chapters is very helpful for I N F Js nine FPs. It's all about toxic people and narcissists because many I N F Js nine FPs have a pattern of bringing toxic people and or narcissists into their lives. And a lot of us have toxic people or narcissists for parents. So that can be also very helpful. And I bet you've got some great advice with on how to deal with that, which all of us.
I N. S needs some help on. Thank you so much. Lauren, This has been just a really inspiring podcast episode and I just wish you all the best with your future endeavors here and love to at some point down the road, bring you back on the show so that we can see the progress that you've made and the things that you're doing in the world to help my Nfs. Thank you so much. Thank you carol wait, don't go yet. Stay with us just a bit longer before you go. We hope today's show helped to bring a bit more joy and happiness into your heart. We also hope that it inspired you to unleash your own inner power and to rise up to your best and loving heart centered highest self. Just a few things before we go, we'd be so grateful if you'd leave us a review on itunes because those reviews are so important to our show and we'd love for you to subscribe to our podcast and share the show with others, particularly those episodes that are your favorite and we'd love it if you let us know what tips and strategies you use to rise up to your highest self.
You can reach out to us at www dot hearts rise up dot com. Or you can email us at hello at Hart's rise up dot com. Well, that's it for now. Until next time. Keep rising up and may love and happiness always be in your heart. Bye for now, Exactly, mm hmm.