mm hmm. Thank you for tuning your heart's in for another episode of the Hearts Rise up podcast. I'm carol chapman your host along with my co host and Siri and Concetta antonelli. We share our own personal experiences, tips and strategies along with powerful stories and compelling insights from guest interviews. We're here to inspire and empower your conscious evolution, help you tap into your inner wisdom and rise to your heart centered higher self. Together we can rise to a higher level of consciousness, an elevated state of being and experience more love, joy and freedom, mm hmm mm hmm. Well, hello and welcome back heart center listeners. I'm carol chapman your host.

Thank you again for joining us on the Hearts Rise up podcast where you will always find heartfelt and heart centered wisdom to inspire your conscious evolution. I have a very special guest today. His name is Jose, leal Jose is quite the entrepreneur Having founded or co founded six traditional companies. His 3rd Startup Auto Net was acquired by a Canadian media conglomerate, where he became the vice president and general manager of the english online division. During that time, Jose was also the vice chair of the Canadian Interactive Advertising Bureau and was highly involved in the industry. After 13 years of working in a dysfunctional organization and industry Jose realized that he could no longer live or contribute to the dysfunction brought about by the systems of force. He has spent the last seven years researching human motivation and organizational environments leading to the radical purpose framework, collaborative canvas and collaborative agreement and co authoring a book entitled Radical Companies Jose co founded Radical a collaborative helping people shift to ways of collaborating that meet their needs.

His primary focus is on exposing the realities of the dominant systems of force that people now work in and developing approaches to break free Jose. Welcome to the show. Well, thank you very much carol. It's a pleasure to be here. It's great to have you here and I definitely want to talk about the systems of force concept and how it fuels your passion for shifting paradigms in today's world of work. And I think even in how we live our lives. But first what I'd love for you to share is a bit about your personal story. If you could just share a little history of who you are, where you're from and maybe even some defining moments in your life and how they've influenced your philosophy or your approach to life. Well, first of all I was born in a tiny village, Think it's about 1400 people. That is part of a tiny island in the middle of the atlantic called the Azores in Portugal and that basically for my life I was a child in a very poor family in a very poor part of the world.

And pretty much if you wanted to do anything you have to make it yourself, we didn't have bought toys and things of that nature from a very early age, I started creating my own toys and developing things, building things. I immigrated to the United States that followed me and I don't know if that was in my nature. I suspect it was more so than just the environment. But that led me to Want to become an architect at the age of nine, living here in the bay area. I started a business doing that, doing drawings for architects and engineers that helped them develop their drawings larger. So these were details And I did that at 16. The first business that I started. That's amazing. Well it is and I look back now and I think how the heck did I do that is? I guess the older we get, the less comfortable we get with that kind of thing. I think that's the case. But somehow I had it in me to call up architects and engineers and say, hey, I can do drawings for you, would you like me to do them?

And that led me to work with a firm that was actually developing software for doing drafting online. And that sort of took me and I became more involved with the computer side of things That became my second business. So at 21 I was in Toronto Canada by them and married And that started me working with architects and engineers but providing them with services rather than actually working on the drawings that they were doing, I realized now looking back that that was the first time I help sort of in this transformation people that had been seeing the world through this analog way of doing things and then help them start to see that they could do it digitally. And that process was one of sort of helping them let go of the old way of doing it and embrace this new way.

And so that business during an economic downturn started to peter out and one of my colleagues in the business started to talk to me about what are we going to do next? It was a lawyer in the real estate space and Canada had gone through this major downturn in the real estate market and we started talking about the internet first we thought we would develop something that would be around the real estate architectural space. But what we realize is that business to business types, internet Businessly were not a thing at that time. This was still very early, this was 95 through a series of accidents, we wound up creating out on it, which was an automotive portal, the first of its kind and that brought together many different aspects of the automotive industry into a media player, if you will, that was national in scope in Canada.

We caught the attention of some media at the time, the corporation that bought us, that kind of led me to the world of being in corporate for the first time, that was an eye opener, I'm sure it was in it. And of course it was the early dot com day. So it was all very exciting. The acquisition led me to believe that we were going to be in a place that really wanted to help us grow and that wanted to see this transition again back to that from an analog media to a digital transition. So a different space, but it a similar transition for me, it was exciting and full of opportunity. I've always been very optimistic, but what I ran into was an industry that didn't want to move and so a lot of sabotaging a lot of dragging heels because it was the dot com era, a lot of ups and downs of invest a lot of money hire a lot of people.

That's not the path we're going. So let go of a lot of people I was involved in directly over six downturns, which meant that I let go of hundreds of people. Yeah, I remember those days it's heartbreaking because I used to work in human resources and it was constant restructuring back then. Just constant and you know, you never knew when you're going to have to let somebody go. So I can see how that just was a significant environmental change for you in your life and work Absolutely. And not having wanted to become a VP in the first place that it was more sort of out of necessity than it was out of wanting. That made it even harder because it wasn't who I wanted to be and I didn't realize it at the time, I just assumed that that's the thing you do and this, you're supposed to feel bad, you're supposed to not enjoy your job when you get into these types of roles. And I didn't though I enjoyed many of the people I worked with and many of the things I did, I also did a lot of things that I'm not proud of.

It was actually one of those trips where I had to go out and as you put it restructure a number of people in Edmonton and I had to fly out to Edmonton and fly back because we had to let go of people in Ontario as well. And I had gone out the night before and that morning was one of the most difficult mornings for me that I had ever had walked into a boardroom to over a dozen people that I had never physically met and they were so excited to meet me. And the only thing I could tell them was that they were all let go and that was so difficult for me and it was always difficult for me. But that one was extraordinarily difficult because I had to then fly back, couldn't even stay with him and talk to them. I had to jump on a plane and fly back to Toronto, I cried most of the ride back, it was very, very difficult flight and it was when I decided that I couldn't do that anymore. I just wouldn't be able to continue down. It wasn't good for me and it wasn't good for what I was doing for for the rest of the folks that I was working with.

So what happened from there? What did you do? What were your next steps? Well, it was one of those things where you say I'm going to quit and then you realize, well, I still own some of the shares in the company. They haven't bought up and so does my partner, he was gone from the company by then. And so that took a while and my wife was also saying, hold on a little longer, things will get better and the ceo said things will get better, don't quit now and all that kind of stuff. So I hung out. It took me almost a year, wow! At least you were honest with yourself and you were at least having conversations about it. I was and those weren't easy conversations because it felt like I was kind of quitting. It felt like I was giving up that like I'm not capable of doing this stuff and a lot of it was, it's very difficult, it was a difficult time for me. It was a difficult time for my wife and I at the time. But finally, I mean that company has pretty much disappeared. The one that I was the VPN pretty much disappeared a year after I left.

Not surprised, But I was the only person that was given a going away party for that organization. And we went through probably about 800 people through Churn. It felt good that they decided to do that, that I was quitting and they wanted to give me a going away party at the time. I thought I've got this like once I leave here, I'm all good. I had already had a couple of ideas. I've got a couple of startups that I want to do and I'm going to go do them and I did, I started them only to find out that I couldn't get motivated as soon as things started to pick up my new partners and I, we were working and and that kind of just couldn't feel the energy that I used to feel. It's as if it was gone and I was numb and it turns out I was numb when my father died shortly thereafter become none. In my marriage, we separated and I was in the midst of getting a divorce and then my mother had a stroke and so I quit the startup and actually moved back to Portugal back to the island.

I was born on first time I had been there for more than a couple of weeks. Sometimes it makes sense to go back to our roots when we're kind of in that state of the unknown and we're not sure what's happening in our lives and we're not sure how we're even feeling. Absolutely. And that's exactly what was happening to me. It did feel like it was an opportunity to just let go of what I was trying to hold onto, which I couldn't hold on to because I didn't know what I was holding onto. Mhm. You know, my mother wasn't able to walk and she wasn't able to talk at the time. She recovered from the talking still to this day, is unable to walk on her own. But we got her walking at that time. You know, the year that I spent there Really changed who I thought I was. I went back and connected with the person that I had been. I always felt like I was a nice guy and for 10 years, I had it wasn't a very nice guy and I couldn't figure out why. And so that started me thinking I am this person here I am.

I'm doing the things that I know I'm capable of doing, that I enjoy doing that I need to do and yet that's not who I was. And so that really started me on a new search. I was no longer trying to figure out how to do a new startup. I was now trying to figure out how did I become that person and why did I do that and going back to finding yourself, finding your roots, finding yourself, finding the person that you were and that you will soon become because you were having that revelation that you needed to make some changes. Yeah, again, I think it was more that it happened to me than I wanted to do it. But when it happened, I didn't fight it. I gave into it. And I think that's the thing that I'm happy for was the fact that at no point did I go, this isn't the thing I should be doing right now. I have myself to worry about or something of that nature. It was just the opposite. Was like, it felt right and I just did it. And in so doing really reconnected to myself.

And so that really sets you on a new course, didn't it? Completely. I never would have thought that I'd end up where I am at any point in my life. I got it moved back to the Bay Area here and reconnected with my high school girlfriend and where you've been partners ever since. Wonderful. And she works at stanford. So I started driving up with her. I'd hit the stacks over. It's the standard libraries and try to figure out reading psychology books and everything else that I could to kind of understand why I had done the things that I had done and I came to an understanding of ourselves as not being aware of who we really are and not nothing that I'd been exposed to, had really told me that we have a part of ourselves, that is a guiding part of who we are and that I hadn't, I had lost touch of it and I guess I had been in touch with it without realizing it in my earlier years, but when I lost it, if you will lost touch with it, it's as if I lost awareness that I had it in the first place and it's through this process of both reading and just certainly paying attention to what I was needing and being very caring for those around me, but very caring for myself, which I hadn't done for a very long time.

Yeah, I think that can be a major issue for many people is that they're not really practicing enough self care. If you're not practicing the self care, you're not really looking inward and you're just focusing on the outer and those external forces and external stimuli. And that was absolutely my case. And my realization then was, well, how did I do those things if I am who I think I am, How the heck did I get to the point where I was laying people off, who had done nothing wrong competing with my colleagues for position and mistreating our clients in the way that we did in order to make sail all kinds of things that I look back and go, that's not who I am. And yet I I had become that person and was doing those things. And I realized that it wasn't so much who I had been, but the environment I was in and that that environment had changed me.

It had changed me in the moment, but it changed me enough that it took me many, many years to be able to get back to who I was. Yeah, it points to the external forces. If we allow the external forces to rule or run our lives, we do lose track of who we are at the heart of who we are, we lose track of what's important to us, what's meaningful, what has an impact. I'm curious if someone were to ask you today, who are you? How would you respond to that? That's a really good question because well, first of all, I think you're probably the first person to ask it in that way. So I don't have a canned answer. And that might be a good thing. I'm someone who from a very early age, new that their role was to pay attention to other people and two to understand other people's needs. And I didn't know this then that that was different then a lot of people.

And nor did I know that other people weren't paying the same level of attention that I was two things around me and I think that as much as it is a good quality in me. I think it's also the very thing that kind of hurt me because I kept following other people's needs rather than those of my own. And that's really I think in some respects serving and I want you to continue with that. But it's serving it's sort of like the foundation, having that awareness and even answering that question right now is giving you an even more I think awareness an affirmation of the work that you are doing right now because a lot of it is based on needs. It is and for me, the understanding that I need to be creative but creative about things that will impact other people. And it's not simply I can't create for the sake of creating I need to create something that I know someone else is going to enjoy, Someone else is going to benefit from.

And that recognition I mean it's taken me my whole life to get there. But it's a very empowering one. It really gives you the confidence is the best word I can describe it And probably better words than that to simply do the things that need to be done. You've sensed them and you have whatever abilities you have to make that impact. And so you feel not only the agency to do it, but the responsibility to do it. Mm hmm So it feels to me like we each have this aspect of ourselves that we are not very in touch with and that aspect when it reveals itself to us actually. It's the very thing that we thought was weakness because I always thought I care too much. I shouldn't feel this way about everybody, right? I shouldn't worry for three weeks before I do layoffs, right.

I should not sleep and not eat and all of these other things. That's just that's a point of weakness. You know, my colleagues can do it. Yes. And maybe you are conditioned. You know, because that's what was I guess reinforced in the external world is to not focus and not feel that way, not be that way because it's not the thing to do. Yeah. And when you're looking around the room and all of the other managers, leaders are going, yeah, we'll just lay these people often. They're doing it very callously and you're feeling nervous and you're just being destroyed inside you think, wow, I'm not cut for this. And it's not because I'm too good for it. It's the opposite. I'm not good enough right? Coming to the realization that this is my little superpower. I can empathize with people. I do empathize with people. It's not something I should be ashamed of but the opposite.

I should empathize with people and help them overcome their issues and now I have an understanding of humanity that allows me to do that. That's why I have that superpower if you will it is in order to be able to help people and without it, I wouldn't be able to do it. Absolutely. So tell us a little bit more about the work that you are doing with radical purpose. And I'd love to find out more too about your research around what motivates us as humans. Yeah, absolutely. Like a lot of things in my life, these are kind of accidental discoveries. The research wasn't I did the research for me, I needed to sort of answer a bunch of questions for myself, but once I get into something, my brain just says, well you can create something out of this that doesn't exist yet. And what I created at the time was what I called the human code was an understanding that we, as human beings have a set of systems in us that guide our behavior through feelings.

It wasn't until I read the book, the Strange Order of Things by Antonio Damasio where I realized that what he was describing is home a static functions that guide our social behavior. That that was the very thing that I had already identified for myself through the psychology research that the reason we have feelings is no different than the reasons we have bodily feelings when we're hungry. It's because there is a lack of energy in our bodies and we need to eat when we're sad. It's because we have a lack of relationship with someone and that too is deprivation of something or it's a lack of connection or a lack of connection. And so it is these homo static functions. Homeostasis meaning balancing right, that emerged in us, not simply to maintain the body, but to maintain our social world.

And so that to me was the clincher and that's what led to the work as I started working with colleagues in the future of work space. It was initially to work on technologies to help people work better because that was my background. So technology was the answer and then I realized quickly that technology wasn't going to be the answer at least not right away, not until we understood ourselves better because solving the way we work from the way we see ourselves today is not going to solve the way we work. That was my realization and that's when my colleagues and I started working on doing workshops and through that process of doing workshops to understand how we might change work environment, that one of my colleagues actually said, it's as if what we're doing is helping people with their radical purpose and this was in the middle of the amazon in brazil as we were doing a workshop with a village there and I turned around and got on the phone and bought the domain right that second because it was exactly what we were doing.

Again, I didn't know that that was going to happen until it happened and radical purposes, an understanding that because we have these systems in us these, motivational circuitry in our neurology, that our purpose is in essence defined for us that we have a calling if you will and that that calling is built in to our neurology. That's interesting. That's really fascinating. How did you discover this? The initial discovery was that the folks that had been doing the psychological work over the last 100 years have been pointing at very many different things and they kept pointing at them with different names, very often called needs, but also instincts and intuitions and this and that and the other and many different types of labels, but what they were describing always came down to something that was serving a specific purpose, a need that we as human beings have in relationship to the world and the work of many of these terrorists in the psychological space was around understanding human psychology from an external perspective rather than the neurobiological perspective and that neurobiological perspective twisted the view for me on the work that had already been done in psychology, it's as if I was able to read the psychological literature with a neuroscience mindset, it wasn't about what the brain is doing or what our psyche is doing because we always looked at it from this, our psyche wants this thing to happen and our psyche wants that thing to happen.

Instead it is that our biology is at all times sensing what is happening in our bodies and outside of our bodies and as its senses, it has default balancing mechanisms that seek to find that balance. And when we are in an environment where we have no connection with other people, then we have a feeling that says go find people. And when we're in an environment where people aren't treating us right, we have feelings that say either I'm going to teach them otherwise or I'm going to get out of here. And it's these homo static behaviors, feelings that started to paint a picture of how we as human beings have what we need. We are born with what we need to guide us to our purpose in life.

Except that we believe that the external systems and the external forces are the things we need to follow and therefore we disconnect from listening to these wonderful guides that are in our bodies and our hearts, right? Yeah. I call it listening to your heart because it's a feeling, you know, it's not tangible, it's a feeling maybe it's tangible in terms of how it shows up in your body. Absolutely. It's still an intangible kind of essence. And that's another word where we apply because our radical purpose is our essence. It is who we are and the reason we call it radical purpose. Yes. Because Like the word radical has two meanings. The meaning of fundamental or the root it is these systems that actually are the root of our behavior. We cannot make decisions without. I just absolutely love this story. That Antonio Damasio the researcher that that wrote that book.

He had patients that had lost their ability to feel social feelings and those patients due to some damage, some disease. Something of that nature that that caused them to not have it. Those patients would come in and he would have conversations with them and they would be rational. They'd be able to speak perfectly well. They'd have rational conversations. No problem. He would ask them to make a decision such as which restaurant would you like to go for lunch? And this rational, normal looking, normal sounding individual would take 1/2 hour to an hour of deliberating around well, this restaurant, but maybe that one's not good, Maybe that one's closer, maybe that one's not this, maybe that and go on and on line and the way that dr Damasio describes it. He never had the emotional lift the thing they would say. That's the one that's the one I feel like when we think about it, most of the important decisions we make in our life, we don't say I thought about, I felt like which house did you by?

Oh, that's the one that felt right memory. That's the one I loved all the important decisions we make if we're making them right and that's the key. If we're making them right, then we're actually making them on the basis of how they make us feel, not on the metrics the rational metrics of what it is. That's right lots of examples in my own life. Even when I made decisions that were totally irrational. I was following what felt right inside me. I wasn't rationalizing it. I didn't need to I didn't need to look at all the logical stuff. I just followed what was in my heart interesting though, is that even when we're making what seemed like logical decisions, the reason we're able to make that decision is because of that emotional lift. It is the feeling that is underlying it that gives us the ability to make that decision. It's not actually all of the facts, right? Those are just helping us make that decision.

But the emotional lift is the decision making peace and that to me was wow, how did we not know this? How do we not teach this to people? How do we not have this as part of our educational system? How do we not build organizations that are based on this knowledge? And that started down the path of understanding that where most of us live, such as in places of work is in an environment that is built and sustained by force. And that these mechanisms that I've just described to you and I hate to call them mechanisms but that's what neuroscience calls them, they automatically respond to force with counter force. And so whenever we find ourselves in an environment that is applying force on us limiting our autonomy or constraining us in some way that they automatically react.

And so whether we think so or not, that force is altering our behavior and our decision making ability. How do we protect ourselves from that kind of force in our life because it's all around us. That's just the way the world is working. And I know that you're looking at ways to shift the paradigm around that. How do we as individuals protect ourselves today? So the first thing is and it's always the first thing awareness and we don't have that awareness. So when we have feeling of something's wonky here, something's not good, we should pay attention to it. But then look for where the force is coming from because more likely than not the reason you have a feeling that is a negative feeling if you will is either because an individual is applying force on you. You've applied force onto yourself through conditioning where Oh no, I must do this right.

This is the thing I must do. But it doesn't feel right. But this is the thing I must do because I've been told this is the thing I must do such as me with doing those layoffs. And also when we are aware of this force from individuals and ourselves, there is a much more subtle form of force and that subtle form of force is pervasive through our institutions. So we work in places where we are employees and an employee, Whether we like that term or not means someone who is to be guided by someone else at their pleasure and that makes us feel unsafe because it's someone else's pleasure. We don't have the autonomy to do the work we want to do. Instead we have to do the work that we're being asked to do and just simply because we're getting paid, it meets some of our needs, but it does not meet many of our needs such as creativity, autonomy and so forth.

Exactly. I was gonna say creativity and also not taking risks. They used the term risk lightly, but sometimes we tend to operate more out of fear, so we're not willing to step out of our comfort zone and that fear is force, fear and anxiety and pressure are escalating amounts of force. And so when we think we are just feeling off very often, what's happened is that mounting amounts of force have been growing and growing and growing to the point where we are now in this place full of anxiety or depressed, which is the way that these systems react to increasing amounts of force over our lifetime and certain contexts. And it manifests in so many different ways in our lives, how we interact with people, how we respond, how we react, What happens physically, mentally and emotionally.

There's this research that I absolutely love robert Sapolsky out of stanford. He did research with primates and what he found was when the troupe of primates is hierarchically organized, that the primates that are lower down on the totem pole if you will have higher stress levels and therefore physical impediments because of it. So now all of a sudden the cardiovascular system is you know getting plaque and things of that nature much like we human beings. The exact same type of physical implications there when we are stressed and the lower they were in the troop. The more effect they had, the higher up all the way up to the dominant male. Typically you would have less and less and less both residual impact like that of the cardiovascular system but also the amount of stress hormone in their blood when they would take the samples regularly and they could take a look at the samples and predict who was more dominant than who.

And that process of being able to predict basically aligned so well that they could tell if these two individuals come together, they know which one is going to be dominant even though they don't interact all of that much. Their systems track who's where in the pecking order. And that force that is applied to them is continuously making them feel as you described right there. Always in that sense of not feeling safe if you will. It's not just us. We have very good examples of this similar work was done in Whitehall in the UK which is in there governmental institutions there. They did the same sampling of stress hormones and they basically could tell you where in the hierarchy of the government systems you were. That has a lot of implications going forward. That kind of research.

Absolutely. And it's been around for quite a while, but we need to put it into this context. It is force that creates that type of feeling, and it is the constant amount of force that we are in and we're not just under force at work, we're at home, we're in our communities and it just keeps compounding. And so how do we remove that force from our lives? Was your question first is identifying it and seeing where it is, because it's everywhere, as you pointed out, but it's in very subtle forms. And so being able to identify where this forces and then figuring out how do I stop creating as much of it as I'm creating. You can act in forceful ways and you can act in non forceful ways, and if you know how to act better, then you don't need to use force and that reduces some of the counter force that comes from others.

So, if you're no longer yelling at your spouse, your spouse isn't gonna yell back at you because very often that's what's happening. And then finding those structural examples of force, where should I be working in an environment where my boss is always telling me what to do, even though he's a really nice boss, or she's a very nice boss. It's not about the person, it's about that structure of force where someone has the ability to alter your life. Our systems, recognize that right away. I love that. So are those the three things they can do, one would be awareness of the force. You just have to become aware of it and be conscious of it. And that's really being conscious. The second is to act better. How can you act differently and not reinforce the force itself, right? Not use force yourself, because that then diminishes the force that comes back to you and then choosing the right environment and then choosing and or creating the right environment.

And really it's the creating part that we are advocating more so because it's about understanding that when we create an environment for ourselves that meets our needs that we're that much more comfortable in it. And the reason we're that much more comfortable is because we have control. We have the autonomy and that creates an environment. It's both easier for us to live in. But it's also an environment that frees up a lot of our creativity frees up a lot of our ability to do the things we were meant to do otherwise. We're in that box, We're constricted and we can never really do the things that we have the capability of doing because we're always under that pressure of force. That's right. We have just a few more minutes. I'd love for you to share the vision of radical purpose and you have talked a little bit Not today, but you and I in previous conversation about society in 2045, if you could answer those two questions in a few minutes, that would be great.

The big vision for radical purpose is to help to disseminate a new understanding of human nature and how do we help people see that for themselves? Many of our spiritual traditions have pointed at this, right? This is not a new thing, but we now have a new understanding that is science back. So how do we bring those two things are spiritual traditions and our new understanding scientifically of this reality. And how do we give people the permission if you will to feel again and to act from that place and to become who they truly are rather than being product of society, that they are the product of their nature. And those are two very different things all too often. We treat people as if they should be a product of society rather than the product of of their nature. We're doing that work. We're trying to figure out how to tell that story. We're trying to figure out how to work with folks and developing new workshops all the time in order to to help people come to that realization and and to be able to to learn to do that for themselves?

At the same time. We recognize that we're in the midst of a major transition in the world and that major transition is happening in very many ways, in very diverse environments and diverse aspects of our society and most of us that are working in this transformation, I don't know about the other aspects of the transformation that are happening. What we've created was society 2045, which is a community that is reaching out two folks that are leading in this transition and trying to figure out how do we bring them together? How do we connect people that are working in what seems like diametrically opposed different things? And yet we need all of these things to come together if we're going to create a society that is more in line with our radical purpose. That's the work we're doing is helping ourselves and others connect with the folks that are creating the new emerging view of society and we think we need a new vision for what that society looks like and then take that vision and with a shared vision.

Be able to work back from that. Well, I love that. I think that is a beautiful concept and I think it's up to each of us to really take charge of ourselves and to also reach out and start to work with those that we know that we can connect and collaborate with and I just have one final question for you, what piece of advice do you have for others to learn how to be themselves again. Whatever the situation is. Don't think it feel it. Yes, you'll need to figure out make sense of it, but feel it first and then allow that feeling to help you make sense of it logically. But if you are trying to make sense of it and grasp at all the changes you need to make in your life and everything else logically, then you're going to just get lost in the mess. That's right. I love that response. Yeah, because it is it's all about feeling. It is about feeling and if we're following the feeling, then that's going to lead us down the path that we need to go Jose.

I want to thank you so much. Where can people find out more about you and your organization Radical purpose dot org is the website and from there you can also look us up on linkedin and everything else. Okay. Sounds good. And we'll be sure to provide a link to the book Radical Companies of which you are one of the co authors on that. And some of the people that you have mentioned on this podcast. We'll put a link to those in the show notes. So, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today. It's been a great conversation and I love the work that you're doing and I know that you're just going to continue to move this forward and it's exciting. It's exciting times. Well, thank you so much. It's been an amazing conversation. I just wish maybe we could do it for another hour. I'll have to come back. I could, yes, you will. We will bring you back. I could go on for, you know, ever and ever. But I think we've given people enough right now to think about and then we'll circle back sometime next year. How does that sound? Okay? Thank you so much. Thank you. And I just want to thank all of our heart centered listeners once again for joining us.

It's awesome to have you listen in. Feel free to share this podcast episode to anyone you think, who would have an interest and be sure to visit our website. Hearts rise up dot com for a variety of resources. So once again, thank you and have a wonderful heart centered day. Bye for now. Mhm. We hope today's show helped to bring a bit more joy and happiness into your heart. We hope it inspired you to unleash your inner power and rise up to your best and loving heart centered highest self. We'd be grateful if you'd leave us a review on itunes. Those reviews are important to spreading this valuable message. We'd love for you to subscribe to our podcast and share the show with others, visit Hearts rise up dot com for heart centered courses, guided meditations and are popular notes from your higher self until next time. Keep rising up and may all that you love thrive.