what kind of failing then? Are we talking about picking the smallest viable breakthrough and seeking to deliver it and then learning when you don't. And I would say that I have failed more times than most people and that has made a huge difference in my life. And then I would say the second piece is that tips shortcuts and tricks are hardly worth your time. Here's the question, what's going on inside the minds of top achievers that caused them to make extraordinary breakthroughs. Both personally and professionally. My name is tim Sure. And I invite you to join me as we take a deep dive into the unconscious mind and discover how to transform your biggest dreams into a reality. Welcome to the how to be mesmerizing podcast. Hey everybody welcome to how to be mesmerizing. It's Tim Fischer and today we have another legend in the house with us. Seth Godin is here Seth Welcome to the program. Well, thank you for having me tim. It's a pleasure to talk to you. The pleasure is mine. So for anybody that doesn't know, Seth Seth is a rogue scholar. He is one of the sharpest minds on the planet and he, it really is insightful when it comes to understanding human behavior.

He's in the marketing Hall of Fame. He's written 18 bestselling books, 19, pretty soon with this new book coming out called the practice. Make sure that you grab that and added to your collection immediately. So Seth, let's go ahead and jump into that brilliant mind of yours. So what would you say? Or two or three bits of wisdom that you've learned through your journey so far? Things that you really have learned and you believe thus far are a fact? Well, so the thing about common sense of course is that it's not very common and we all have pieces of wisdom that we carry around. The question is where is the wisdom that is counterintuitive because sharing the don't stick your finger in a pencil sharpener rule that's not helpful because everyone knows not to do that. So I would say the first one is that failure is dramatically underrated? That failing appropriately is the only way forward. So what do I mean by appropriately, I mean not failing at something that takes you out of the game, not failing in a way that hurts other people or is ungenerous or selfish.

What kind of failing then? Are we talking about picking the smallest viable breakthrough and seeking to deliver it and then learning when you don't? And I would say that I have failed more times than most people and that has made a huge difference in my life. And then I would say the second piece is that tips shortcuts and tricks are hardly worth your time. Mm Yeah, that's very good advice. So let's talk about the first tip. So I agree, I always tell people there is no failure, only feedback and the more you feedback you get, the faster you're able to grow and learn and discover which is really good and your biggest breakthroughs are hidden in the places you don't want to go and why don't you want to go there because you're afraid you might fail or be embarrassed or look bad. But if you are able to get over that ego part and have the courage to go in those places, that's where you find your biggest breakthroughs. So, and I love the idea about the and I know you've said this a lot and as an authority on marketing, you know, people should really take it to heart that all these ideas and campaigns that are going to help you to get rich quick and all these shortcuts to success there.

It really isn't. You know, I've interviewed some of the most successful people on the planet and they don't have any real secrets. They have some lessons, They've learned some principles like discipline, right? And do what you say you're going to do things like that. However, you know, we're hoping they're going to give us some magic pill. That's going to unlock everything and it's not really there. No, it was everyone would have taken it already and then it wouldn't be worth very much. Yeah, that's right then I want to be a magic pill. So what was something that maybe you used to believe was true, but now you've gotten older and hopefully a little wiser and now you don't really buy into that anymore. I used to think that the fancy people were more interesting than they actually are and you know, we've created this culture that celebrates the fancy people and you know, you don't need to go to ted to find people who are interesting to talk to and you don't need to be backed by venture capitalist to build a business that's worth building and you don't need a Pulitzer prize to be a good writer.

So those signals can sometimes be a useful shortcut. Like I never would have met Sir ken May he rest in peace if he hadn't been a ted speaker and he and I were, you know, spent a couple of days together in Italy a few years ago. So I'm really glad that the famous people spotlight was on him, but most of the time you're like really, really, that's all you got. I'd rather spend time with people who are kind and interested and interesting than people who got picked by some system. That's really good. You know, I think one of the reasons why people love you so much Seth is because you're so down to earth. I mean with the accomplishments that you have and the things that you've been able to do in your life, it's pretty remarkable and yet when you speak, you're coming back to the same, you know, hometown values that you grew up with right about being kind and being compassionate and being thoughtful and being respectful and and you just always bring it back down to earth.

There is an old expression says, beware of meeting your heroes, right? And my wife likes to say you need to write a book called don't peek behind the curtain. Yeah. You know, I'm obsessed a little bit with the Wizard of Oz and there's so almost every scene in that movie is a metaphor that's useful. What's interesting about the wizard is that the man behind the curtain when he was pretending to be the wizard wasn't much of a guy. But afterwards when he got rid of the subterfuge and he was able to be the person he wanted to be. He was one of the heroes of the movie. And I think that all of us deal with imposter syndrome. All of us deal with feeling like a fraud and a fake. And one of the ways that I deal with it is I just don't take myself that damn seriously because if I do then I get all stuck And every time I find myself wanting to say, don't you know who I am, I realize that's what someone who has amnesia should say and everybody else should say, how can I help?

Oh that's really good. I'm sure you weren't born that way. You had to go through these phases right to get to that kind of selfless or others focus space. How'd you do that? Everyone is born naked unable to walk around a bike. So we develop skills and I think it's a trap to wonder about the origin story of people whose skills we admire because your origin story is different no matter what. And so, you know, wide world of sports loves to talk about how this person, you know this lucky break when they were four, made them into the world's best golfer. So therefore you can't be the world's best golfer. And I don't think it's fair or useful to let ourselves off the hook. It's way more interesting to say, how do I get on the hook? How do I find enough difference among people who have achieved something to realize their background doesn't matter. So yeah, I won the parent lottery of a person of privilege. I'm healthy every day.

I'm thankful for what my parents taught me, but you didn't have to win the parent lottery to make a difference. And on and on. Right, my friend, Liz Jackson who's battling physical disability is an extraordinary human being. And Yeah, I could be there in a running race but she could beat me in 400 areas that matter. So I don't want to look at someone's background or their appearance and say, well that person got it because I don't buy that. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it reminds us that because we're always focusing on what we don't have or what, you know our inadequacies because of that deep down fear that I'm not enough. That's the biggest fear that drives all the insecurities in the world, that somehow in some way I'm not enough and I don't want you to know it though because then I won't be loved, which is the other big fear. And so yeah, I finished a book called One Belief Away with Giove Italy and in it, I remember asking him once, I said joe do you think that some people are just luckier than others? And he said, well I hesitate to answer that question because there's so much victimhood in it.

However, the real question should be, do you want to be one of those lucky people instead of feeling like, you know, there's lucky people out there, just tell yourself I'm one of them right and walk around believing that I'm one of these lucky people and then all of a sudden you'll start thinking feeling and behaving in that way and I thought it was sage advice. Yeah, so yeah, so there's some things that you've learned, I mean you've written a lot of books, I know you had your 18 bestselling books, which is incredible. And before then you are creating a lot of books and now you have your newest one, what have you learned through that writing process? Because I know in our twenties thirties, forties fifties we continue to evolve. What, how have you evolved in writing all these books. So I only took one english class in college, my high school english teacher wrote in my yearbook that I would never amount to anything. So I'm not a natural writer. When I became a book packager, my vision was to write with idiosyncrasy and to be peculiar and stand for something and it became very clear that I could not do that and be commercially successful.

And so I wrote the smiley dictionary and the business almanac and the celebrity of almanac and books on gardening and stain removal and I was a chameleon I could make a book on a topic that and make it a best seller or not. But the quality of meeting spec was there. And when I went out on my own with permission marketing which was my first New York Times Bestseller 20 books ago I decided to go back to what I set out to do in the first place to write and design and market a book that was one of a kind because I didn't want to be one of 100 or one of 1000 and so the lesson learned particularly now since you don't need a publisher to say yes is you need to write something that people would miss if you didn't write it and writing another version of somebody else's book isn't helpful to anybody. Yeah, I agree. And it also seems that you write the book that you need the most anyway. All right, so often, you know, for myself, without a doubt I write for myself.

Yeah, it's such an accomplishment and learning to be able to actually write, because it does take discipline. It does take time, You know, and then once you have the book out, then you've got to go through the editing and everything else. So it really is a process. But through that you learn and grow and you can't grow and have all the wisdom that comes from it if you don't take the journey. So, which is cool. So, at this point in the game, you ever get scared anymore, and if you do, how do you handle it? Well, I only get scared if I'm doing something that's important and if I don't get scared, then I have to have a conversation with myself about why I'm not doing something that's important. And I tell the story of training for a marathon. If you're gonna hire a coach for the marathon, you don't say to the coach, how do I run the marathon without getting tired? That's a stupid thing to ask. Right? Like the coach would laugh at you. So don't ask somebody how to do important work without being afraid. Yes, because that's how, you know, you're doing important work. So, when the fear shows up, I say, thank you, Thanks for reminding me that I'm doing something that I'm glad I'm doing.

Oh, I think that's what really does allow you to stand out from the crowd, is that you always show up with an answer. That's opposite of what everybody thinks, you're going to say? I love it. You do it continuously and I you're not I don't I think it's just who you are. You know, you're not even doing it on purpose, you just that's how you think, which is why it's so refreshing. So yeah, I just want to I got to interrupt their I don't buy either of the last two things you said, you know, somebody who rides a bicycle really well, that's not who they are. It's a skill and having this gentle, contrary, contrary nature to help people see things differently. That's not who I am, that's a skill. I just decided to be good at that by practicing it. Uh huh. Again, such wise wisdom and thank you for the clarification, I appreciate that it's huge. And I hope everybody really gets that. That your main point is that we often think that, you know, people who are successful or just lucky they were born that way. They have these skills, they have these talents and what you're saying is no, they've developed them and they've honed them, they focused on what, instead of spending time telling myself why I can accomplish things, I just focusing on developing the skills that will help me to accomplish those things, yep.

Yeah, All right, very good. And, you know, I've been thinking about the name of the podcast. I think what we know someone asked me a question about, how do we bring more personalization to marketing and almost no one cares about personalization. The fact that your name is written on the shirt or you know, that something was made just for you, but we care a lot about things being personal and what makes it personal is not that the person talking to us as being personal about them, it's that they're being personal about us, that we don't want email, we want an email, everyone wants to read an email. And what makes somebody mesmerizing is they are speaking to us in our language on our frequency that resonates with our story, and you can't do that for everyone. And that's why seeking the smallest viable audience, not the largest possible audience is essential. And in fact, in the age of the internet, the only thing you can do, it's tempting to say, I want to be the next kim Kardashian, but we already have a kim Kardashian, which is plenty.

So you don't get to be the next one, but you could be the next You if you could find a small enough group of people to be it for, You know, there's an old joke in the psychotherapy field, which is my background. They say we're going to start with 30 clients and 30 years from now, we're going to retire with those same 30 clients right now is the old model, but I love what you're saying, I 100% agree because in this age we are especially if you're into, if you have a business or you're into providing services online. I hate to say internet marketer, but if you're reaching out to customers through the internet, the idea is that you have to keep finding more and more and more. So you have to be on all the social media channels and you've got to constantly be posting three times a day at these times in these days and I heard you say, you know that doesn't matter and I really agreed because it's exhausting and it waters down the message that you could share because you're just trying to get stuff out and so having a smaller group as they say riches in the niches. Well, you know there's a con in social media which is that if you are using social media for free that you're the customer, you're not the customer of twitter or facebook or Pinterest or any of them, you're the product and they are trying to make you insecure trying to make you sad trying to make you hook so you'll come back so they can sell you again.

And as soon as you realize you're doing free work for Mark Zuckerberg it gets way easier to say there's nothing in this for me and so I don't use twitter, I don't use facebook, I don't use linkedin, I don't use Pinterest, I'm okay, I build what you want to build for the people you want to build it for and stop worrying about interrupting strangers. I dropped the mic but I need it. That's good. It's very good. So you've already given a couple of marketing tips but since I have one of the world's most well known marketers with me here you got a couple other ideas. I know you've talked about focus on your audience. You know, give quality information, make it about them, tell them stuff that you know interest them the most I want to clarify. I don't think any of those things are tips. I think those are universal truths that don't change over time. A tip is you should tweet at two o'clock in the afternoon on Thursdays because that's today you'll get the most traction. Yeah. So what are the universal truth matter smallest viable audience?

When in doubt. Look for the fear. Why is that customer hesitating? What are they actually afraid of realize that while people like to say they make rational decisions, no one does. Because if we ever met two people who made rational decisions, they would always do exactly the same thing. They don't because human beings make up stories about what we do and the stories are version of reality. They are not actual reality. We don't know what reality is. Yeah. And that doesn't mean science isn't real. Science is real and if what you are doing is working, that's science. If you're doing things that aren't working and denying it, that's delusion and figuring out your path forward by creating opportunities to help the people around you get what they want. Makes it more likely that you get to do it again. Yeah. Mhm. Very good, very good. Yeah, it's really important. And and a lot of times people feel like, well I am focused on my customers.

I am focused on caring about them. But secretly most are not, you know, a simple test test for you tim okay. If a customer asks you for something and you know of a competitor that could do a better job, do you give them the competitors phone number or web address? If the answer is no, then you don't really care about your customers. The answer is no. You're just saying my custom, caring about my customers is a good way to make money. But if you say to a customer, I do that. But this person does it even better than me. That is what you say. So, you know, if you think about the book industry, we blurb each other's books all the time. You can find my name on the back of more than 150 books with me saying you should read this book, Tim Cook does not Blurb Samsung phones. He just doesn't. You're just not going to go buy an android phone and says tim cook Ceo of Apple. I like this phone a lot. No, he doesn't do that because he needs you to buy an Apple phone and blur being other people's books is a symptom of generosity and surplus.

Whereas if you need your customers to know less than you, you're doomed because your customers know more than you. And one quick fun test the next time you go to buy a car, bring a laptop with you, sit down at the desk, open it up and asked what the wifi code is. And like as a sales person is talking to you, you're just visiting other dealers game over. That's right. That's good. Yeah, that's sage advice. I remember one time I had a couple that came in for some coaching and I realized after our first or second session that I was not going to be able to serve him in the way that I wanted to and they felt that way too and they weren't sure how to bring it up and so they didn't have to on the following session. I had to check waiting for him and I just re funded them and told them that and it was at a time where I did not want to refund them, but I knew that it was best for them and they were so surprised and so blown away that I didn't try to lock them into a contract or anything else. I wish them the best, you know, and they went on their way and I got three or four clients from them.

They became one of my best referral sources, even though I didn't help them right? Because of the you know, being for them. Yeah, exactly. So good. All right. So I'm curious about this one who have been some of your role models, people that you look to for guidance these days. So I wrote a blog post seven or eight years ago called mentors and Heroes. There is this uh perception today that you need a mentor and if you think about what that involves, it's this person who you believe is more powerful and successful than you who's going to drop everything coach, you help you make decisions for you for free, you're not gonna find a mentor that's like a dream. But heroes, heroes are easy to find because you never need to meet them. In fact it's probably better if you don't, but you can say what would this person do in this situation. You can ask yourself that question anytime you want without their permission. And I have been lucky enough to meet my heroes and do projects with them.

I did a project as big. Asimov published his book from Zig Ziglar did five books with jay Levinson. But I got more out of every one of those relationships when they were my heroes because that stands for something and in my case lately I would say there's two buckets of people, the people in our society today who are standing up for racial justice for black lives matter, who are trying at great risk to themselves to make things better. And there are my readers and the people in the chemical workshops who each are doing things with the ideas that I never would have expected. And watching them expand horizons and make a difference inspires me to do better work because I know there are people who are counting on it. Yeah. Yeah. It is very exciting to see where people take the ideas and the inspiration and what they do with it, you know, and come up with stuff that we could never have dreamed of on our own. That's the exciting part about it.

So providing the tools and then support and then watching the collaboration and the innovation that comes from it. It's awesome is that uh what was one of the reasons why you decided to provide the N. B. A. So The N. B. A. is a 30 day workshop. We run, we're in our 43rd session. It's only 120 people at a time. It's intensive. I'm not in it, there's content from me, but mostly it's project faced with coaches and it changes people's lives. Five years ago I sat down and I said a lot of people are trying online education online education, meaning you get a prize at the end, not online learning where you actually learn something. And I said in the massive online courses, there's a 4% completion rate, which means that 96% of people drop out. Yeah. Now try to imagine a lecture hall at a fancy university where there's 100 people in the first class in four in the last class, they shut the place down. I sat down to say, what could I build? That was contrary to the conventional wisdom that would show people they actually could learn things online that would change lives.

That would help people learn to see make better decisions level up that people would stick with because they wanted to not because there's their certificate. So we have a 97% completion rate, not a 4% It goes really deep with a lot of people. We have 5000 alumni in 80 countries and the people who take it, some have NBA. S some are trying to replace an NBA but has nothing to do with an M. B. A. It just has a bad name. And it's designed for people who wonder when they wake up in the morning, there's got to be more than this. It's about addressing that question and helping people level up. And then because the NBA was so successful, we said how do we make something that's more broadly applicable? That's more maybe a little more tactical, that's a lot cheaper. And so we run the marketing seminar, the creatives workshop, freelancers and boots trappers and some new ones coming because I am a teacher. And if you go to the library and read my book. Fine with me. If you steal one from a friend, fine with me.

But mostly I want you to change. And the best way I know to change people's with enrollment. And the best way to get enrollment is in these online settings. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. A lot of learning is just memorizing and forgetting. You know, it's not actual application and then getting feedback and then becoming a lot of a lot of education is learning and forgetting. But learning, learning is about confronting incompetence through action and then not being incompetent anymore. If you're going to learn anything, you're going to become incompetent for a while because you realize you don't know how to juggle and then you do right? And I am not high in education right now. I think education is overpriced and promises too much. But learning learning is what is the only place hope comes from. Mm Yeah, learning is the only place hope comes from love it. So you ever find yourself in a rut. And if so, how do you get out of it? Yes, all the time. I think the hardest part of my work is exposing myself voluntarily to discomfort to do something that might not work.

And what I found is if I am too fearful, then I stick with what does work. And that's known as a rut. So rut is a symptom that I'm not being brave. Oh sad, That's a t shirt brother. Oh my God, I felt that one all the way through, wow, a run is a symptom of not being great. That's a good one. Let me give it. I apologize. No, no, you're fine. All right, I'm back. Okay, cool. So that was a good one. So you know, you've been around the world, you've had all kinds of cool adventures. Is there one particular adventure that you've had that really stands out is like one of your top ones. Almost none of them have to do with airplanes. I have traveled more than most people and I haven't been on an airplane now for six months and I don't miss it one bit. So I'm going to broaden the definition of adventure just a little bit. I think that in Kibera, which is in kenya, There's a slum with two million people who live in it.

And I was invited by a group I believe called the Camera Boys Book Club to come talk about the book Linchpin and there were 40 people there. They make on average $3 a day. They had read my book more closely than any group I had ever spoken to and I still remember that day, I still remember hearing from so many of them in the years afterwards about what they're building and what they do and you know, it's super easy to use the word privilege and just sort of dismiss it. But these young men had nothing we would call privilege and yet they figured out how to shift their attitude. It was thrilling and that was more than 10 years ago and I still remember it like it was yesterday. Yeah, it's incredible. It really does give you a whole paradigm shift when you're actually somewhere else and you're hanging out with other people and you look at their circumstances and they might be standing in a place where we might consider filthy and they're smiling. They have the most genuine smile and then it's like we're complaining because our plane ride was too long writer and so yeah, that's amazing.

I mean that is very powerful to be able to even think that people, you know, somewhere like that are reading your book, you know, and using your book as a guide to transform their life. That's a pretty big deal. Yeah, That's amazing. All right, well we talked about adventures. Who is one of the coolest people you've ever met. Oh, I don't even know what that question means. Isn't everybody cool in their own way? Oh, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Like my fourth grade teacher who I didn't appreciate it all at the time. Now I recall that every single day she wore shoes that matched her dress and she had dozens and that's something I would want. But what an interesting hobby to be 1/4 grade teacher and invest thousands of dollars in hundreds of pairs of shoes so that each one matches a different dress. You know, everyone's got the wrong thing and to remind us how cool that is and to appreciate and value people and the fact that you noticed it right? I mean that's huge. That's the best answer Seth I've ever heard because usually people will think of some celebrity or somebody that they know and I love what you just said and it causes us to pay attention.

I have this acronym, I call it love. We need to walk around loving people L. U. V. It stands for listen to understand and validate, right? And so we walk around loving on people and when you do that it causes you to have to focus on that other person what they're going through what they're wearing, how they're talking, how they're they might be feeling, asking questions to understand where they're coming from and then to offer compliment, you know, instead of criticism and a kind word or phrase. It's so powerful and yeah every example you give is an example of how to do that, you know, with Grace. So super good. So I already kind of know how you're going to answer this answer this then, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. So once you achieved a high level of success, was it what you thought it was gonna be? There was a level of success I achieved when I was able to build a stable home and have a family that I loved and it was significantly better than I ever expected when I reached the level of success of a stranger recognizing me on the street because I saw my ted talk like whatever, whatever I wasn't doing it because I thought something cool would happen, but nothing could happen.

Fun. I don't go out of my way for it. It gives me no pleasure. It's the cost of being in the world and being a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. So many people sacrifice the stuff that they ultimately want for that fame and fortune without asking themselves why do you want the fame and fortune? So yeah. So let's talk about your book, the practice in that book, you said a couple of things that of course makes so much sense after somebody talks with you and meet you. Right? So, but you said you mentioned that leaders are imposters. So can you clarify what you mean by that? Sure. So, imposter syndrome is something most of us have felt feeling like a fraud. Feeling unqualified. Who am I to be here? And people say, well, how do I get rid of imposter syndrome? And I'm saying unless you're a psychopath, it's good that you feel like an imposter because you are one. And the way that you know, you're an impostor is you are describing a future that hasn't happened yet. You are leading not managing, leading showing up and saying over there, we should go over there.

It might be better. Do you know for sure? No, you're an impostor. You're acting as if with generosity, you're doing it for other people who are voluntarily following you. That is very different than saying I am a kidney surgeon. I will do an operation and you will survive. Someone who says that to you should be really sure it's true, right? Not like my first surgery, we'll see what happens. But for the rest of us, if you're a leader, you can't be sure because that's what it means to lead is that you're not sure. I think the word that if we had to describe you in one word, it would be generosity because you use that frequently. Right? That were generosity of spirit, of of thought of kindness. And then taking a look at the things that people are most afraid of. And then showing up with a generous smile. You know, you are an impostor and people be like what? And then to laugh at yourself and go, well, I guess I am then. But you're doing it with a generous spirit of generous heart and it breaks the spell of fear.

I allows you it allows you to be able to really be there for yourself and others. That's not good. Yeah. So, you know, where can people find this new book of yours. So, wherever finder books are sold, which is running out of places if you go to Seth stop blog slash the practice, you'll find an excerpt from it and you can find our workshops at a kimbo dot com. Outstanding. So two more questions for you. If you could travel back to when you were that fourth grade boy learning what you know, now, is there any advice that you would give him? So I want every lottery and I'm really happy today. And that's only because of all the failures. It's only because of all the dead ends and so I wouldn't go back and change any of them. However painful they were. So I guess the only thing I would say is it's going to be okay. Yeah, that's really good. You know, we all have failures and pains. You have found a way to move through them though. Did you feel like it was because you were on a search in life as a school or do you feel like you had no other choice or was it driven from, you know, in the beginning from anxiety?

You know, I have to figure this out. I got to pay my bills. Maybe a little bit of all of it. Yeah, I do not want to minimize the biological origins of real trauma for a lot of people and I don't believe in talent that much, but I do acknowledge that trauma is real and because I've been so privileged. I haven't had some of the traumas that other people have had. I've had really lucky sorts of dead ends and heartbreak and going for years almost missing payroll and practically going bankrupt. But enough of a safety net that I could navigate it. And I think that I didn't give up because the alternative was to become a bank teller and I knew that if I became a bank teller, I would never recover. And so this desire to be heard to help to turn on lights, That's enough to get me over the hump most of the time. Yeah. Yeah. That desire for something more so I know you don't know a lot about my background, but I spent 20 years specializing in helping people to overcome those big t traumas, right.

And the post traumatic stress from wars and all kinds of horrible things. I have enough horror stories in my head for a lifetime. And what I've learned is it's not what happens to you, it's the, how you interpret it, right? It's what you think it means and the belief that comes from it that influences you more than anything else. And I've seen people go from victim to victor just by shifting the belief and what they thought it meant. And it was the most beautiful thing I ever saw, which is why I continue to do it today. Yeah, this is thank you for leading and for caring. Yeah. All right, back at your brother. This has just been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing all this wisdom and care. And you know, it is interesting because and I'll make this last point. But it is interesting because you are a marketer, right? Like one of the best in the world. But you don't talk like one at all. Right? You have my gentle like come, let's give Seth a hug, you know, kind of this feeling and which probably wasn't what makes you the best market or wherever, right?

But it's just and it's genuine because you are you're full of of generosity and love. So thank you so much for being a part of this program today. I really appreciate you being here. Well, thank you tim. It was a pleasure. It was outstanding. Thanks so much. All right. You take care. We'll talk soon. Well there you have it. Everybody Seth Godin holy cow. That was an amazing interview. So I really recommend that you go to Seth blog. If you just go to google and type in Seth S E T. H, he pops up everywhere. He's been in the game. He's been blogging since 1998. He has over 7000 probably more than that post right now in his blog and he is just a wealth of information and knowledge and love and care. So check out his new book, The practice. You can go to amazon, get a copy of that. Make sure you share this with your friends and loved ones because this was a really powerful meaningful interview. Make sure you subscribe and review because those reviews allow us to continue to shine brightly and take these insights and use them to make your life mesmerizing.

Thanks so much. Everybody talk to you soon. Hey, would you like more free tips on how to be a mesmerizing leader? Then check out mesmerizing leadership dot com and also hang out with me on facebook facebook dot com forward slash tim. Sure. Thanks so much and make your day a sure success.