Welcome to the I. Q. Meets E. Q. Podcast. I'm Jacqui Brauman, principal solicitor at T. B. A. Law and Ceo of Legally Wise Women and I'm here with Ush Dhanak, former corporate lawyer, then head of HR and now an emotional intelligence coach. Morning Ush morning Jacqui. How are you going? Yeah. Well, we're, the days are passing. They are, aren't they? It's like, it feels like it's like close to the end of the year again. Yes, it does. It does. It's a bit of a blur. A bit of a blur. Mm I know, I know you guys are in and out. We were just saying, right, so it's a little bit worse for you because of a ping pong, isn't it? Is it is we have to, we don't know what's going on one week to the next. And you know, I'm sure particularly hospitality businesses, it would have been so hard for them because, you know, they bring in what they need for the weekend and then we get locked down on friday for the weekend. So what do they do with all the stuff?

And then they open, we open back with a day's notice and they're like, well, I haven't got stuff and then we close again with like three hours notice. I'm sure there's a lot of people out there struggling. But I think I've been reflecting, I think the fact that so many people are struggling. It sort of is almost bringing us together. Exactly, That's right. Isn't explaining the whole, you know community thing together. Absolutely. I feel the same in in Sydney. But yesterday, actually, there was a bit of a divided it because there are certain suburbs that like Bondi that can go out and you know, go to the beach and some babe. Whereas yesterday in the western suburbs, there was a funeral and people were arrested at the funeral. So it's like, hang on a minute, you're you're treating people very differently. Depending on their postcode. Yeah, Yeah. Depending on their local council area. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, this thing doesn't have council boundaries.

Okay. No. So you guys are lucky in that sense and they are now starting to talk about vaccine, passports or different rules for the vaccinated. Mm. I know. So, yeah, we'll have to wait and see what happens now over the next few weeks. All right, that's right. And how, how that's even going to be monitored and I know it's a state decision to do that, but at the same time, There's some inequity in it obviously because the federal government hasn't been able to make it even available. So it again gives preference or advantage to someone firstly over 40 because under 40s haven't had it available to those who can easily get to a center if it's, you know, regionally here, the hospitals are only open 92 or three. So you have to take a day off and as soon as they opened it up to Under 40s, it was booked out for six weeks in advance.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Anyway, it's all a little, I mean every country is dealing with it in a different way, Every state dealing with it in a different way. I dreamed up when we're recording last year. We were it was around this time and we said, oh, we can't wait for january because it will be like a little bit behind us dollars, if you're like, deja vu, it feels like we're saying the same thing to go, be great when it's january because it will be behind us. We can have a fresh start or something. Remember saying that 2021 has been almost a carbon copy here in Victoria of 2020, because we've just had another extended lockdown. Our first lockdown for this year was February, so we did have January, But we were home anyways, I one time, anybody That's right, no one could go into state. Yeah, so here's hoping that, you know, in the New Year onwards, a little bit different for everyone and they can hopefully put it a little bit more behind us, and yeah, but following on from our interview a fortnight ago with Kate Dillon, uh it's certainly still making me very conscious of trying to support local.

Uh so I did buy another one of kate's jumpers, so I've got to now because her grey marl ones came back on as well, so I've got a white and gray now, so yeah, so that's cool, and the other thing that I did remember Stacy head with the female PPE boots and things like that. Yes, she's just come out with a range. That's like just a little sneaker for females. Um like a leather sneaker. So I just jumped on and bought one of those as well. Um So I'll let you all know what it's like when I get that. But that was really exciting. Oh no, I didn't realize she was doing that. Yeah. So she's sort of the the marketing around it looks like it's made for someone who works in a cafe or or in a role where they're on their feet all day, but don't have to be on site somewhere, wow. So they do come in white too. So maybe for nurses as well. So I checked those out.

I will, I will, I have to be reminded me I need to get that sweatshirt though. I'm going to have to get that nice. Not in white as we were saying. Yeah, the graves back. So go for the gray. Yes. Um and this time around I interviewed Emily Knowles, which, you know, I often say he interviewed the right person at the right time, like the time of this interview and the tone and the feel of it. I was just so insightful. Whereas kate and the last few interviews have been quite inspiring and uplifting. And this one was like much more grounding for me and really has made the note in and think a fair bit and look, I just love this conversation for so many different reasons. Yeah, I agree. I think even just the start when you asked how she was and she was like, I am, I'm like, I was almost waiting for the next word because we're just so conditioned right to here.

I'm great, I'm fine. I'm there some good and it was just like I am and I'm like, oh my God, it was like that that really made me think to go Yeah, exactly how I am at the moment. Just done. Yeah, that's right, that's right. So Emily was trained as a lawyer and did some time actually as a judge's associate, but now practices as a registered psychologist and particularly going into workplace psychology. She really invests a lot of time and interest in the intersection between the legal industry and psychology and works a lot with lawyers. Well, being very interesting for both of us. Having both touched on that industry too. So let's have a listen. Hi Emily, welcome to the podcast. How are you, Jackie? I am. I am. I am like that's enough right now. I think all of us to just be, is kind of just leaning into that and being present with how we're showing up each day today.

I'm really good energy because of this recording but not denying. It's been challenging the last few weeks as we are in amongst this lockdown. What feels like kind of unending but also a stop start experience. Very much so. That's a really good way of putting it. I am because you here to experience and go through the process. And that's almost a philosophical bigger thing to say to, isn't it? I am Yeah. And that permission to be human, kind of, we're all doing our best. I don't think anyone is not doing their best right now. No. Uh and you're in victoria in Melbourne as am I? And as you say, we've been bouncing around back and forwards, you know, you being a psychologist, you're also talking to a lot of people dealing with a lot of things too. So, but I want to hear more about your story. What did you want to be when you were growing up? That's such a good question. And it's um it's so funny when you think about when we kind of ask Children when they're young, sometimes as young as kind of primary school, what they want to be.

And I think it's a question that taps into something that we assume is kind of deep within us that we in time will cultivate. And so some of us have a very clear idea, some of us don't for me, I wanted to be a doctor because the rationale was I wanted to help people and that was the most practical frame of reference I had for being able to help people growing up very physical kind of framework of what it was to help the human body in time. I've kind of evolved that you know, start started to understand that there were more damage to helping people as I have got a bit older and expanded my horizons and mindsets and I still wanted to help people but wasn't sure what that looked like yet. And I would absolutely love to tell you that I was kind of having a I was in the middle of a retreat. I was having a really kind of spiritual experience when it came to me what I wanted to do then with this desire to help people. But it was not that it was something much more kind of normal and every day I was dating a guy who had a whole bunch of friends who are lawyers.

I was surrounded by lawyers. We were having amazing conversations about all sorts of intellectually rigorous topics and I thought this is the kind of, these are the kind of people I want to be around and these are the kinds of issues and the ways of thinking that I want to kind of involved myself with. So while the relationship did not last, the legal thing stuck. And so for me started law school, I was a little bit hesitant because I didn't think that I wanted to do kind of the traditional pathway that kind of becoming a lawyer looks like. But you know, there we go. I began and language has always been something that I loved and I'd always been a debate or at school and foreign language is a big passionate mind. So it kind of seemed to be a bit of a natural fit. Also loved Alan maxfield growing up. So I was like, yeah, this is going to work, you know, so you know, all the, like I said, I'd love to tell you that it was a really well thought out plan, but it had a few kind of criteria that it was taking for me and I started law school and I just loved it.

I loved learning about black letter law. I loved learning about legal process. I loved the thinking, the kind of the stretching, the building of arguments, the critical analysis. There were so many parts of it that I loved and so for me kind of, this looked like it was going to be the thing and I was, you could say maybe on the platinum path a little bit in that space. I became a judge is associate kind of did all the international exchanges and stuff like that. But it didn't work out that that was what I actually wanted to do. So I'm sure it will be a part of our conversation today around kind of maybe what were some of my turning points from that skip forward and I become a psychologist. So there's a whole chunk in there. I'm hoping we can come back. Yeah, sounds like fun and automobiles got a lot to answer for, doesn't it? I mean it was it was a product of the times I guess as well, but it seemed dynamic. It seems like, you know, there was gonna be interestingly relating to your podcast kind of seems like there was going to be a lot of relationship stuff going on, it's going to be a lot of emotions, it was going to be dynamic, it was going to be kind of an opportunity to really immerse myself into a new world.

So yes, lots of appeal there. Yeah. All right, so you're in an associate ship and did you enjoy doing that? I loved it. So I was in between what I was working on in both criminal and civil jurisdictions and so actually ended up working on a really big large profile and a big case when I say big, we had multiple co accused, it was a murder case, like it was very high profile in the Supreme Court. It doesn't get much bigger than that. And so all around me, kind of I had, you know, the best of the best on show, we had the best barristers, we had our judge, we had all sorts of elements kind of inter playing of course. And if we had all sorts of precedent, we had legal process, we had jury matters, we had everything coming to life that you'd imagine on the kind of, that big stage, uh, if you imagine kind of what it could look like to be involved as the judges associate. And so for me though, what I was becoming most fascinated and most intrigued by was all the stuff that wasn't the job.

So it was kind of when we're hearing witness testimony and when we're kind of seeing people present their arguments, how are they persuading and how we, what are the elements that we're kind of putting down to around credibility and how we knowing where kind of the truth lies and are we believe in these people and you know, what, how is the evidence stacking up and what are some of our internal decisions and potential biases as we're exploring these topics. And I was like, this isn't the job melissa job is not all this stuff around the edges, but I was like, this is what I'm really fascinated by the stuff that doesn't fit in the box of the law. And so for me kind of, it took a ton of navigating and probably looks like a bit of an EKG kind of going into cardiac arrest if you follow my trajectory or maybe like a volatile stock on it. Yeah. So it, it wasn't a smooth path for me. I did quite a bit of tacking if you put the sailing analogy there.

I tried forensics because that was a bit of an intersection of law and psychology realized though for me that was going to be not kind of at that flourishing end of humanity, which is where I really wanted to flex and be a part of. And so next started kind of if that legal chapter was the first part, the second chapter was consulting. And so I started looking at different avenues to explore how I could help people now in a bit of a problem solving way that didn't have the parameters of the law involved and so kind of two phases to that one which was just a bit of a, see what it's like and kind of taste everything had some time in recruitment, did some kind of cool little projects as well with people who ended up being very influential mentors of mine and so collected experiences, really. I collected critical experiences which helped me to then job sculpt what was happening next. So the second part of my consulting kind of chapter began when I went back to uni and decided to pursue the senior and more advanced studies in psychology.

And so that's when I got really serious about knowing what my purpose was and being able to build some of my intentions around that, which then led to another chapter, I guess the third chapter around consolidating what that looks like and for me, innovation was always going to be at the heart of that. So fascinating and also for you to give yourself the space to be able to explore, just shows the inside as well because I think so many people just go now I've done this, that's the sunk cost. I'm going to pursue this and continue with it. Whereas you've got no, there's so many elements of this that I love but it's actually not doing of it. And even when you're talking about looking at the biases and the persuasion techniques and all those sort of things, I could almost see you going okay, well I should actually go into the academics of law and the, you know, the reasons and the research why and there. Yeah, but you've come at it from a human perspective them, haven't you really? Yes, very much kind of focused on the experience of humans at work.

And that is more recently, what I've really been specializing in in a what's called a register our program as I become endorsed as an organizational psychologist, which is very much that study of work from the individual, the team and the organizational level. So lots of latitude to explore through different lenses. And so for me kind of that legal, the legal pathway was a massive eye opener. But I did have to lean on my own emotional intelligence because if I didn't listen to those feelings, I would've shoved them somewhere and then I would have had to deal with them at some point. But I thought it felt really important to deal with what was going on for me internally. And I guess kind of the recognition of what was showing up for me and what I could do about that and treating my emotions as data points, not disregarding them I think was really important. Yeah, it's really insightful and it's it makes me think back to my own experience actually.

And you're right because if you don't deal with it, when it arises, you end up having like a midlife crisis or you or you have to make a pivot later in life when it might be harder or you've got more responsibility so you feel stuck and so on and so forth. But anyway, the life choices we make. Absolutely. So where does the innovation piece sit? I mean you're very innovative anyway. And the way you're approaching and thinking about things. But how do you bring that in? Mm. So my my kind of deep inquiry with innovation I guess began when I started looking at some of the in betweens. So kind of law of psychology. What happens at the interface of those two things? And so I started to really seek out and stopped very intentionally learn from people who were doing that at either the intersection of law and psychology or other intersections. Kind of those in between.

And so I really wanted to learn kind of who's doing that. And what are the ways that we can do it then in that kind of consulting period I talked about which was a little bit more experimental co founded a start up with some amazing people called ideas Fight Club. And while that hasn't kind of had a legacy into the virtual and digital future, it was very much in person piece which we didn't get off the ground in a translation. It was an amazing opportunity to flex some of those muscles and build some of those skills around. How do we tap into providing people frameworks to think innovatively. So are we innovating on process? Are we innovating on product or service or are we innovating on experience? And so starting to get a bit of a blueprint around what innovation involves. And so for me that was really critical then too kind of package that up is right, this is innovation. How can I bring innovation into psychology? How can I keep pulling through the threads of the law and so innovation being a big piece. Also research being a big piece of my kind of DNA as a psychologist being evidence based but also contributing to the peer reviewed literature as well.

So that's a big passion of mine. So innovating in that sense, being kind of what are the research studies and findings showing us that we could be doing differently in improved ways and how we're using an evidence base to make our decisions in my setting now in a world of work and with my most recent kind of focus point being occupational well being and especially around supporting lawyers as well. Yeah, because you've never truly moved completely away from the legal industry and that's primarily your focus now, isn't it, consulting back and working with people in the legal industry. Um and you said whether it's industry bodies or individual businesses as well. So tell us a little bit about the new path that you're on now with human link. And I guess what you're passionate about when you're there while you're there doing that work, probably not surprising. I've really capitalist on these intersections again when I'm at human link. So the main intersection that I focus on here is leadership and well being.

And so when we start to look at leadership which has a whole body of knowledge and we look at leaders who our leaders are in our organizations, in our firm's kind of in that kind of landscape of an industry. And then we also look at well being and this phenomenon of how we can support ourselves and support others. How do these two intersect so far as how can we equip and support leaders to support themselves in what we call self care and then to support their staff in what we call staff care. So there's the self care and the staff care peace and so that's taking quite a lot of my time and attention in a really good way. So dipping into lots of the research, they're innovating kind of testing ideas, testing products, building products and human link is an amazing organization because we have the infrastructure there given kind of our makeup of the team that we've got so many different levers to pull on in terms of the, the data specialists, the social specialist, kind of the leadership specialists.

And so really it's quite a collaborative endeavor and that's also I worked out a space in which I really thrive and something that really energizes me, that ping ponging of ideas which has always been really strong for me, kind of what it is to explore different mindsets. Let some of them go kind of build new ones and really the process of journey. I think it's really important for me kind of that piece around. Yes, there's normally a destination in mind but sometimes it's actually about the process and we find that that's actually really powerful space with our clients as well to explore process, not always outcomes. That's really interesting. I was just thinking of that purely from a lawyer perspective because we're so focused on outcome and getting to an outcome and driving an outcome and nearly disregard the journey along the way or it's almost like the end justifies the means, sometimes in respect of we're going for an outcome. It doesn't matter how horrible we make everyone feel along the way to get to that very interesting stuff.

And Jackie, another lens to pop onto that is like that's what you've just described there as a bit of a client lens, like how a lawyer would engage with their client and we can also think about it from our a bit more of a professional self care lens around kind of the process that we're on and the journey that we're on kind of where the pain points and challenge points that are paying for pain sake and which ones are actually the growing pains and so really being able to navigate again, kind of what environments we can really flourish in and which ones we've kind of square peg round holding. Yeah. Right. So tell us then, what are some of the more product style things that you're able to create when you go through a process and and is that you create a product that then actually can be duplicated across different workplaces despite you know, we tend to think that where that unique that it has to be individualist, I don't know. So the latest project that we're working on and I've been in meetings this week for is around a well being and mental health kind of self audit.

So what it is to self reflect on some of those elements and then using that information to have a coaching conversation and so what it looks like to integrate pieces around wellbeing leadership development programs and really knitting them all together. And so again, kind of while the wellbeing tool might be something that we adapt and frame in a certain way for a certain client, there's, it's feasible to scale up and scale across with it as well. So really trying always basing ourselves in evidence, which I think gives us the good bedrock that we know that it's sound and our principles have been considered and then really you're flexing for different environments, fascinating stuff. You know, we could, I think talk for hours, um, there's so much that I want to dig into and in fact I'm probably going to hire you to do some work with my team because you're also a partner with legally yours as well as am I? So you tell us a little bit about forming partnerships like that and yeah, and who you love to work with?

Great call out to legally yours as a, as an innovation kind of expert in this space, which is what really attracted us to partner with Karen and the team doing things differently is a big passion of line and also hours at human link. And so I guess in the kind of partnering principles, always thinking about complementarity, so kind of where there's an alignment, but where you can, where it's win win like this isn't. And I think this sometimes can be the challenge in the legal world, we think it's zero sum game sometimes that is true in the adversarial world. Often not always, but often it is true. Whereas when we kind of take back kind of when we look behind the curtain, I guess when we're not looking at that kind of really on stage piece, when we're looking at how we do things as a B A. You, how we do things kind of on the ground, partnering is a really great principle because it lets you kind of be yourself, that lets you bring the human to work and that identification of kind of what my strengths are, what yours are and kind of how we can fill gaps if there are gaps that need to be filled.

So big principle, there is always alignment of values. So values is a personal kind of project of mine because I've been involved with the literature and publications a number of years now, but also that human link we have a whole suite of kind of values work that we do around personal values because that is really where it all begins understanding ourselves and coming back again to that emotional intelligence. Can we articulate our values, my values? Just to put it on the table. My values are self direction, achievement and stimulation. And each of those values comes with levers that I can pull and each of them comes with watch outs, the kind of maybe my well being or maybe kind of what it can mean for my performance and so understanding ourselves really critically so that we can understand who we are, who will work well with who we can kind of work well with in terms of a client piece but also in a business partner in peace as well I think is really critical.

Yeah, that's a fascinating stuff. Yeah. And on this podcast we've looked at values and various people's values over different episodes as well. It's it's really interesting what drives people, isn't it? And Yeah. And even if your values, you know, they can be crossovers which makes you can be motivated in the same direction as well. Which is which is great when forming teams. Really fascinating staff. And so from a research perspective values kind of plot around a circle And so the most commonly accepted kind of theoretical construct around values is that there are 10 universal human values and they sit in a circle kind of slices of the pie and some of them are close together. So some of them are very similar and some of them are opposite. And so sometimes the tension between opposite values can be kind of really tapped into in a positive way. But sometimes that can cause conflict and so really interesting when you start to explore the conflict literature and conflict in real life, what's going on for conflict?

Is it a conflict in values? Maybe is it a conflict in sometimes facts and feelings? But maybe there's some more kind of maybe there's some deeper underpinnings mm fascinating. Alright, so everything that you've learnt with the experience you've had and learned about yourself because you're so self aware, what would you go back and tell that 21 year old self Yeah, so much. But also maybe nothing. Nothing as in do your thing. Some of the pieces I guess though would be more about the soothing of kind of the anc's that comes up at some of those pivotal transition points and decision points and just to trust the process and to know that you'll make mistakes. Um and sometimes mistakes have good consequences and sometimes they have bad consequences and being okay with that and knowing that that's what it is to learn. I think as well, something that I've really benefited from is intentionally and strategically putting myself out of my comfort zone.

Kind of all the way through so that when I am pushed beyond my comfort zone, I'm comfortable with that feeling. I know what it feels like not to be in my comfort zone. And so I think kind of in talking back to my younger self, I think that would be a big one that all the moments, all the moments have meaning, you don't need to kind of put the ones that feel crappy into a trash can that, you know, it's sometimes we learn um there's this great kind of, I think it's called the hole in the sidewalk story. Just just a segway of an anecdote for a minute, because I think it's relevant here. So, a person I walk down the street. So I'm walking down the street and I fall into a hole. I didn't see the whole, but I fall into the hole the next day, I'm walking down the same street, I see the whole, but I still fall into the hole. The next day, I walk down the same street, I see the whole and I don't fall in, and it's not until the next day where I walk down another street instead of the street that has the hole in it. And so sometimes we learn lessons the really hard way until we get the shortcut so that we know kind of ourselves in certain scenarios and and kind of the pain or the anc's that we can overcome very quickly.

But sometimes we do have to learn those lessons the hard way. So, I guess just being okay with both routes, kind of the easy route and the hard route, and it's okay to not know as well. I think it would be a big one. Yeah. Right. And even just pushing on that analogy a little bit further, like the fourth time you take a different street where there's not a hole in it, but you've got the learnings from having been down the street with a hole in it. Whereas if you had taken the other street in the first place, you would have had to have learned that lesson somewhere along the line anyway, wouldn't you? So Exactly. And I think there's a nice analogy again to the world of work there around kind of where do we learn the lessons easily kind of Yeah, this is for me or this isn't for me. And where do we learn? Where do we kind of sometimes put ourselves under pressure or if others put us under pressure and it's the right kind of pressure. So where are the like I said again, where are the growing pains and where is it just pain in terms of fit in terms of these the kinds of challenges that I want in my life?

Do I feel supported to meet them? Do I feel kind of I have the internal constitution to meet them? We might identify as being a little bit more sensitive or a little bit more emotional. How does that play out? If we are in a more kind of cold cut world and vice versa, if we're kind of playing in a more emotional space, how can we kind of leverage our emotional intelligence to really meet the demands of being able to connect with people and really kind of feel their experiences and really being able to empathize and sometimes that has a toll on our capacities, not just our intellectual ones but our emotional ones when you think about your buckets of kind of how you show up, you got your physical energy, you've got your intellectual energy and then you've got your emotional energy and so how we kind of either filling up or depleting those buckets when we meet challenges. Yeah, I love that three, the three buckets because you're right, sometimes you've just got all the physical energy in the world, but the mental load just means you just can't continue. So you just have to go for a walk to try and burn off some physical energy as well.

Yeah, that's right. What do you do for yourself to refill your mental and emotional buckets? Great question because it is a question I ask myself every morning, what am I going to do to fill my bucket and what might be depleting mind today? So firstly kind of, I think about being on a good day, this is me on it, not so good day on a good day, I will be moving my body, I'll be eating well and that's my physical dimension. Um I'll be thinking clearly I'll be feeling uh like I can concentrate and focus and like I've got headspace, it's kind of a psychological bit, I'll have some sort of social interactions. So I'll be either chatting to a friend, I'll call up a family member, you know, something that's interpersonal, it's more about social peace and then for me personally, really important that I have kind of a spiritual and an environmental connection and for me that means maybe being outside or enjoying nature or get fresh air um and also connecting to my bigger y uh for me kind of I have whole kind of practice build around yoga for that, which is really helpful.

But other people I know it can really lean on other important frameworks around kind of purpose and why it is that we get up every day. So I guess me on a good day is doing all of those things that does not happen every day and I've learned to ease up my unit of measure to maybe a bit more of a month on month. Like how am I doing imbalance month by month rather than day by day. You can get a little bit tricky me on a bad day then would be at the bare minimum. I'm always moving my body. So I'm always doing something physical and trying my best on the food front. But sometimes the other dimensions don't get as much TLC. But for me the non negotiable is always moving my body and breathing, being really conscious around how I breathe. So that's kind of how I do it from a strategic by design kind of peace, but just some other really lovely little tips. I've kind of come across along the way is to kind of test and stretch and build my perspective taking.

I really like watching documentaries and sometimes I like watching documentaries about how big everything is, how vast the universities and how small we are. So anything by carl sagan or kind of in that sort of kind of tradition of, you know, we are but a speck in the whole universe. But then also the other side of that love watching kind of nature documentaries to see how big we are as humans. When you watch something by David Attenborough and see kind of the microbe Organisms that exist in a rain forest and the life of ants. Like you get a new appreciation for how big and powerful we are as humans. So I guess just a little bit of perspective taking can be a good one. I enjoy it as well. Yeah, perspective. I love it. I'm the same as you like, thinking about how long time has been, how long things have been around, how long things have taken to get to this point, how big the universe is and how tiny tiny tiny we are. It always blows my mind. Thank you so much for this conversation. Really precious.

And the way you think also has expanded the way I think so, thank you for that. Um if people want to get in touch with human link, we will have some links in the show notes. But if they want to get in touch with you, what's the best way? Great. So get the human link website is www dot human link dot co and I can be reached at Emily at human link dot co. And so feel free to shoot me an email if you would like to have a follow up conversation on anything we've discussed. Really happy to share. Kind of some of the readings and some of the thought leadership that we're working on. But also that's out there more generally on any of the topics I've discussed today, brilliant. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for today, Jackie really enjoyed it. Right. All right, tell me what you thought. Oh I thought it was great and you know what like 34 minutes into the episode I was like Jackie's gonna love this and I just knew it and you know what the different elements to why I thought that but also because of the whole when she talked about her values at the end, I'm surprised learning wasn't one of her values or you know you could tell how much she's invested in in herself and almost like her skill and craft to get to where she's got to.

And it was it reminded me of that classic saying you know that when you pay for someone's expertise, you're paying for all of the time they've spent learning and their knowledge. It really she really reminded me of that that phrase that she spent so much time on herself and and although the path wasn't traditional, it almost when she was reflecting back on it it was it seemed really natural, didn't it like that she's taken those steps to be the organizational psychologist that she is at the end of the day now. Yes. Yes and all that experimenting in between has added to her abilities because I wonder how many organizational psychologists just go straight to uni and then go straight into their field and haven't experienced much as well. Like it just adds this depth. And I even said during the interview how insightful she was to allow herself the room to do that experimenting.

And I mean there's so many places to talk about in this conversation but it almost brings me back around two the very end where she was talking about what she would tell her younger self and about soothing the angst at those decision points. So even though she was allowing herself the time to discover an experiment, there was on reflection angst that was unnecessary because it's all worked out mm Yeah, that's a common theme isn't it? With a lot of people that we've interviewed I think is when when they give that advice back is that it actually in the end, what needs to happen will happen. And even if it was something disastrous or stressful or traumatic, it's almost like it had to happen for that learning to have occurred for them to be the president they are and you're almost at peace aren't you? With with what's happened. And I think that's true for a lot of us as well, when we go through something in that moment in time, we don't realize it, it's only after we've gone through it that we go okay, you know, there was a reason why we went through that.

Yes. It brings me back to the conversation with venice because her whole life has been so, so allowing and she seems to have gone through life without that angst and is able to look back on it and see the patterns that has brought her where to she is. But you're absolutely right. So many people have come to their journey to where they are and look back on it and see that it was very natural to create the person that they are. And yet many of them would have felt angst along the way. Whereas Ennis Zenit has been able to do it with much more surrender. So yes, very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like, like many people that we've interviewed, there was such that sense of calm in the interview, right? Like the whole even her tone and it's like, and I listened to it at night last night, but it was just very nice to listen to at night performance.

It was like, it was almost like that calming effect came through just listening to the recording and some people have that effect, don't they? You know, who else? I don't remember? The death walker interview was a bit like that as well. It's just that Yeah, you just yeah, it makes you feel that feeling, doesn't it? So even one of our early interviews, melony McCarthy, that leader in the mining industry who had that beautiful voice and I'm like, you can't help but not listen to her. I know, I wish I was like that. I'm like 300 mph. But you know, I actually had to screenshot this. I'm going to share this with you in a second because that bit that she spoke about the hole in the ground story. The analogy that she gave, there's actually a poem on it. Yeah, it's just so beautiful and it's so it's so relevant actually, I think what everyone's feeling at the moment, so we'll share that at the end, brilliant, brilliant. It was really interesting as well to reflect on how she was consciously feeling feelings instead of shoving them down.

And I thought that that was really relevant for this time as well. And it even sort of explains why she said I am at the start, because she knows that she's got so many feelings and she's not shoving them down or covering them up. And I've been also reflecting on, you know, I think I've been a shover shoved shoved feelings down a lot. But even since starting this podcast, and the first time you talked about that emotional wheel have been far more aware as well of at least acknowledging what I'm feeling instead of just dumping it down and continuing on go. Yeah, actually I'm feeling something here, I'm feeling this, even if I don't have much time to examine why at the time I'm at least acknowledging then in terms of dealing with them. I think it's interesting then to reflect why these things arise, isn't it? Yeah. And I think you've nailed it there is that if if we don't bring our awareness to what it is that we're feeling, it will come up in another part of our life that has nothing to do with what it was that we were feeling about in the first place.

Like, you know, you'll take it out on someone else, something else or it won't be to do with work, but it will be to do with something in your personal life. It will it will just come out and literally in a different part of of your life. So we think we're suppressing it, but we're not. Which is it's almost like the pressure cooker analogy, right, that we're just prolonging it and it's going to explode, it really will. And when it does that, it's not going to be pretty no, no. And so while, particularly when we're locked down and we've got restrictions and we're just starting to get angry and frustrated about the situation is it is important to say, well, I am angry and frustrated. I'm not just fine one day at a time, like it is what it is actually, I'm pretty angry and frustrated and so, you know, you don't want to bring that and take that out on staff or clients obviously, But it's also like, well, a lot of us are feeling like that, a lot of us are impatient and wishing time away and wishing to get to a certain point and when there's another outbreak, you're angry because you think that someone did something or failed to do something they should have done.

So we're blaming and everyone needs to give everyone else a bit of a break because we're all feeling the things Absolute 100% yeah, and it's just being, being more compassionate, isn't it? Like to the people around us, You know? 100%. Yeah, but we are, you know, we are wishing that time away. I know I've been doing that, it's like I said it to the start of this interview, so oh my God, I can't wait for the new year to get here because it's almost like we have to put and it's okay, it's like a coping mechanism, isn't it to go, we're looking forward to a certain milestone to then go, we're going to get through what we're getting through. So yeah. Mhm Very true. The other thing that was interesting that I've been reflecting on, because we spoke about it with Tara as well, so all these things are sort of coming up around conflict and conflict in yourself and conflict in the workplace and what triggers those things and Emily was certainly coming to it from the values perspective and when there's a values conflict that Tara had come from it, I guess it's similar Tara had come at it from the perspective of this scarf assessment that she uses, which is just another way of categorizing your triggers or values into just five things I guess whereas values conflict and probably fall within scarf but can also be a little bit more specific, I don't know do you do much work around that sort of stuff because I know you do a lot of values work.

Yeah, we do. So for ours is about first of all the awareness of what your values are and actually one of the big things I found is if you are an employee in a company you you tend to take on the values of the company right? Which is fine because that's what you're meant to, you, you'd be drawn to working for them but then what happens is you sort of lose touch of actually what it is that you value and what you believe in and um when I run a value session with employees they always go, yeah these are the values and yeah, yeah I agree with them because we always told for employees need to live the values but then when we go deeper it's like okay well forget work as a human being, what are your values and the like I don't know so there's definitely that awareness piece of what are your own values as opposed to what you were conditioned by your parents or work or friends and then absolutely, I think that that internal conflict or you know, nervousness or whatever word emotionally want to give, it comes about when you are directly doing something that is in conflict with what you feel and genuinely believe in 100%.

Um and it was funny just at work with one of my clients this week, just this week, it happened, there was a leadership meeting that we were part of and we were going through some feedback that had been collated from some of the employees and we didn't spend much time on it in that meeting. It was just really initially a conversation to go, here's the feedback and we will book sometime in later to discuss it. And then one of the leaders called me afterwards and said, I felt really weak in that meeting because I wanted to say, well hang on, no, I don't want to brush past this. Yes, we will make more time, but we need to talk about it in this moment because some of the stuff that's been raised is really important and he goes, I'm so pissed off with myself because I didn't speak up because I feel really weak and he goes, there wasn't any psychological safety that was created for me to be able to speak up. Um so his big value is being able to say what you need to say in the moment and not be judged for it or not worried that you're going to look like a troublemaker or not worry that you're gonna lose your job.

You know? So I think people are and that was for him. That was a big, big conflict. It took him 24 hours to raise it. But he reflected on it and it came up and it was, it's a big thing for him. Mm And even to be able to reflect and articulate it because you could just have this sense of anger, anger or injustice and you're not actually pointing why that's actually something else that I've been really reflecting on stints listening to this interview the second time because I have had a trainee at work that didn't work out. And I've been really reflecting on as a leader, my responsibility and that failure and how it could be done differently. And particularly around what Emily was talking about with the right kind of pressure to make people grow and the right kind of challenges that you need in your life and how I can create a a level of comfortable discomfort if you know what I mean.

Because this person just wasn't progressing. They had plateau owed and then they started dropping the ball. Even from that plateau when I started saying, well you're about half of where you need to be, you need to be at double your capacity. How are we going to get to this point? And the pressure that I applied was not something that they stepped up to. How much of that is my responsibility versus whether there's some actual capability limits and then not to repeat that mistake. But then also to understand that everyone is different and so I don't have to approach the next person in the same way, in the same way. That's right. And maybe that person we'll get there to the capacity or competency that's needed in time, but it's just not going to be with you at the moment because you can't afford them that time. So, and it's okay. You know, they just need to find a place or something else that's going to give them the time to grow in the time that's needed for them.

But that doesn't mean you have to carry that um, in your business, right? But there will be other businesses that go to know what we're not going to be that dependent on you from the capacity point of view and you can have six months to grow and learn and shadow, but it's, that's just not your environment right now. So that's okay. But I think definitely pushing them a little bit to be uncomfortable. It does, it does encourage growth, but it's on the individual not on you. Yes. Yes, There's got to be a whole lot of individual responsibility. But I'm also aware that quite often people will look for comfort and so I've got to balance their ability to have some time in comfort versus always pushing them out of their comfort. Yeah. Because otherwise they'll just be in that horrible discomfort space that, you know, like we talked about the impacts their nervous system and which that impacts their performance as well. So you're right. It's almost a bit of that. You can go to treat in your cave and save space for a little bit.

But when you're there reflects on how you can be better and grow. Yes, it was really interesting for Emily to re reflecting on that herself and being conscious that in moments when there wasn't so much external pressure, she would put herself in uncomfortable situation so that she knew how to be uncomfortable when there was external pressure. Yeah. And I think, you know, this is probably true for most people is we think we can't cope with certain things. But then when you actually put in that situation, you just deal with it. It's it's you've got no choice. And that's been true. Yeah. And that's been true in my life with many things. And I go, oh my God, I wouldn't, if you look back on it and go five years ago, if you had said you were going to do what you did, you'd be like, no way. I'd have a meltdown and breakdown. I can't do it. And then you're like, actually, no, I did do that and it's it's cliche, but you are stronger than you think you are. But we we don't really test that often enough. Do we know? No, it's hard to measure too, isn't it?

Mm But it's we're wired to not like pain and discomfort. But the more we do it, the more we step out, you know, a little bit by bit, then we go, okay, yeah, we're going to get better at it. And there's so much learning in it. 100%. There is. There's so much you learn when you are out of that comfort zone. I know I've taken jobs and clients that I go, I don't even know if I'm gonna be able to do this. But once you're in there you work it out, you do it, you make it happen. It's like the not that I'm watching the show, but the is it the s a S show that's just been all over the media at the moment and menu yesterday said he had a little meltdown and walked off the show because he's like, there's certain things I do that are part of my comfort zone. And he goes, there's certain things I don't want to do. When he goes, I realized when he quit the show that I was doing it just to prove something to other people. And he goes I realized I actually am perfectly fine being the person I am and I don't need to do that to prove anything to anyone or myself.

But that was pushing himself out of that comfort zone is what it took for him to realize that So sometimes even if we don't go through with it, that's okay. But it will remind us that hey, we don't have to prove anything to anyone. That's a great learning within itself, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of things we do to impress other people or get others approval, which is not something that is really benefiting ourselves at all. No, it's not exactly much a great timely reflection too. Think about all those things and to dive deep into the brain that she has. Yeah. That is why I got so excited about this interview because expanded interesting conversation was just yeah. So good. So good. I'm actually going to get Emily in to do a half day with the team or something like that. It's just that probably not before the end of this year because it's fast coming to a close.

Yeah. When you said that I was thinking that that's going to be good for your team. There will be a nice treat for them in the new year, wouldn't it? Yeah. When everyone comes back after the break. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. Mm hmm. All right. So what have you got planned for the next couple of weeks? What have I got planned? So I'm going to be working with my instructional designer Deana. We've almost finished for about two weeks away from finishing our 12 month content for online course. Like it's oh my God, the amount of effort that's gone into that. So that's really exciting. And then we're gonna literally going back to the beginning and putting it into a former of launching it onto Kajabi, which is the platform we're going to go with. Yeah. Right. You originally mighty, weren't you? Yeah, we're going to go with the job now because we can put literally everything in there with the membership site and also the corporate side of things for 12 months. So it's really exciting to go, right, this is what we're using, this is what we're doing. And so the next few weeks are really just going to be pushing That first draft of the content to be done.

But yeah, well, awesome, reflection moment yesterday. Oh my God. This 12 months content that's come out of my head onto paper. Yes, it's amazing. It's amazing. And while we think that 2021 has been difficult on so many levels, the amount of work that you're putting in to have launched ready for the next phase, like it's snatch important time. Yeah. Work. Mhm. So yeah, what about you? What's your next few weeks looking like? Probably like every day is the same actually the days are getting longer, which is lovely. So it's nice to sort of be walking when the, you know, the dawn and the pink sky and everything. It's just beautiful at the moment. What else am I doing? I'm getting on a few peoples podcasts, other people's podcasts. I am. I got my birthday coming up.

So hopefully we're still released enough that I can go into one of these float tanks because that's what I really want to do. I want one of those second again. Oh yeah, they're amazing, aren't me? Yeah. Yes. One day at a time I am I am love it. Love it too. All right. So anyone who wants to reach out to Emily her information will be in the show notes. Otherwise I will post this on our website iq meets eq dot com dot au. We always posted on linkedin as well. That usually generates some good comments and like so please let us know your comments on the reflections after this and otherwise. Where can people reach out for you? Yeah, at Ush dot Academy. And I'm Jackie at Legally Wise Women dot com dot au. So, another fortnight. Another two again. Soon speak to you soon. Hey, Yeah, thank you