Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the podcast. I'm Jackie roman. Principal solicitor at T. B. A. Law and ceo of legally wise women and I'm here with Bush Stanick former corporate lawyer. Then head of HR now an emotional intelligence coach. Morning wash morning, Jackie. How you going? Yeah, pretty well. How are you going in lockdown in Sydney? Yeah. Good. It's not it's not been too bad. The first week was like, okay, it's not too bad. I enjoyed it. Didn't have to travel into the city and then it's like, okay, I have a feeling it's going to go on like it did with Melbourne. You guys had what? Two months, didn't you? 12 weeks? Three, three months. Three months. Yeah. Straight. Mhm. Yeah. I have a feeling we're probably gonna be two months. We've already in week three. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. It doesn't look like the numbers are coming down yet, but we've got to do what we gotta do. I guess we there there's no community transmission down here.
So fingers crossed. It's it's hard, isn't it? Yeah, yep. And it's just so unpredictable as well. Like, you know, you think it's going to be all right and then the numbers rise and but in a way, you know what I was saying this to a friend yesterday that no matter what Gladys stars, it's going to be wrong. She's not going to please everyone. So they just need to make a call. Get it over and done with put us in hard lockdown and let's move on from it. I think there's half fasting. Is it locked down for a week and then no, and back again. It's gonna mess up people even more. Mm. Yeah, I, I agree. Because you think there's a light at the end of the tunnel and it keeps getting pushed out and pushed out. Yeah. Whereas I suppose in victoria when they were making those hard decisions, they just like, well, no apology. That's just happening, yep, people just have to suck it up. But I think potentially what's frustrating for you guys as well is that you see people not doing what they're supposed to be doing and so the numbers are continuing to rise. That's right. Yeah. And then everyone else has a software as a result of it. So we'll see how are you going?
Yeah, okay, I'm fine training for this half marathon that I've got in august ahead of a full marathon in november. It's going well, how's your training going now? That your lockdown? How are you doing that? It's not. Which is a real bummer. Like I was just getting a swing of like training 34 times a week so they couldn't take it online for you and do something in your lounge room. No, because the training I do you need equipment. So it's on hold, which is a bummer, but I'm just walking every single day. That's it. And I'm skipping. So yesterday I was looking at youtube skipping videos. Something from this channel called the Dudes and roads. So I'm going to start doing some skipping and yeah, that's going to be my sort of little activity. No over lockdown. Great video. That is exactly yeah. No, otherwise all good. Yeah, That's a pity because you were just going leaps and bounds with your routine strength and all of that, you know, that's all right.
We'll get back and do it. So I spoke with a lady about burnout. Yeah. So it sort of follows on from a few episodes we've had, but you know, perfect for thinking about lockdown and thinking about all the, you know, you and I both juggling a million things. So jess jones is who I spoke to. She is the founder of the Burnout club and she's burnt out a couple of times, which you'll hear from her story that she tells. She was the founder and former Ceo of the saw collective and at the same time had two young Children and was having had a part time job when she had her first burnout and then sold that business and then went on and had a second burn out. So she's really conscious of it and the work she's doing is amazing. So let's have a listen. Right, welcome to the podcast. How are you? I'm really well, Jackie, thanks for having me.
How are you? Yeah, good, good. I've heard you on another podcast or somewhere else where you said the burnout club, which is what you've created is the club that you never wanted to be part of and it's stuck with me and a few of our guests over the last month or so have been sort of talking about those things in life that either give you a tap, a slap or a mac truck will hit you to try and create change. And so it's sort of a lovely little follow on. But before we jumped into how you came to the realization that you were burnt out going all the way back when you were a child, what did you want to be? I wanted to be a famous singer. Really. Yeah, yeah, but you don't do in a way? It's still time. Yeah, there probably is plenty. So do you sing? I do, yeah, I play guitar, but I haven't performed life for 20 years and I would love to it.
It's also the answer to the question, What's your fear? What do you fear? What's the biggest fear it's performing live again, which is ridiculous. Like people. Yeah, double edged sword. You love hate relationship. Yeah. All right. So you're not a professional singer? I'm not going, what did you do after school? I actually got expelled from school at the end of year 11. I was not much of an academic. I loved sport music and writing and words and I still do. So I had the option to either finish year 12 at the high school or go and get a full time job. So I opted for the latter and I got a retail sales training ship at McDonald's. I started when I was 16 just before I turned 17 and I was on $4.92 an hour, wow, you can remember that. Oh yeah, I'll never forget it. Very good. A lot of us started at Mcdonald's, I think it gives you a really good grounding and I think when kids come and want to do a trainee ship or something with me, I'm always like if they've got Mcdonald's, it's been a good start to life.
That's for sure. Absolutely. I learned so much the first six months. I absolutely hated it. And even imagined, you know, slipping over in the bathroom while I was mopping the floor so I could somehow get out of being at work. It was that bad. And then I came around and I started to love it and I loved the routine and the systems and the structure of it all. And I found it really interesting. And uh, yeah, definitely down the track. I've looked back on that experience and thought, well, I was so lucky to have that. Yes. Yeah. So how long were you there for? I was there for about 18 months. I had a really loved photography, you know, my teenage years as well as many of us do. So I was really keen to go and work at Smith's Kodak Express. So I did, I went and it was an assistant manager there after my Mcdonald's steamed and then I grew up in the country and we heard sanity, music was coming to town and with my music obsession I was determined to work there and I got a position there so that all happened within a few years of yeah sort of my late teenage years.
Which country town Mafra I grew up in matter and sail in escape. So yeah, okay so relatively small ish. Yes. Yeah. I think at the time we had oh gosh it's just escaped me. Might have only been about 4.5 1000 population and the time while I was yeah, yeah it would have been a big thing then for the music to come to town. So then what what happened next? So I loved that job many reasons and I was determined to become a store manager. So I I did eventually I was still manager at 19 and I was I think I was the youngest in the country at the time which I was pretty proud of. Help, proud of. I wasn't awesome at it to be honest at the beginning but I loved it and that sort of probably set me off to want to be management leadership roles in the future which I've done a lot of since I do love to lead and I certainly have learned a lot from many of the different roles managing teams and different personalities over the years.
That's for sure. What an amazing thing to get that chance at 19. Yeah, I was, I just got something which is strange because I do remember that's when that sort of, that drive started to kick in for me and always wanting more. I mean I've had that since I was a little kid and I unfortunately saving my daughter now and have to bite my tongue because the other march, she wanted something after already getting something else and I went to say out loud you always want more and I thought I'm not saying that because that's his name. So there's nothing wrong with it. You've just got to work out how to manage it later. Mm Yes, which sounds like a personality trait which will lead you to burn out one 100%. So tell us by the time you started noticing issues I suppose, what job are you doing by them? Burnout. Yeah. So my first burnout was 2017 and I was managing, sorry, I had a business at the time called saw collective and I'd just come off a nine months pr campaign for the business that was showcasing regional business women around Australia.
So I had this great idea, I was driving back from visiting my mom in Ballarat one day in november november 20 Sorry, that must have been November 2017 I think I use a mixed up and I was driving back and I had this idea to drive from belong to the sunshine coast. So ended up being about 2400 km in five days and stopping and holding events, three events of business women along the way and interviewing them and it just went crazy from there. So we had a film crew that came along and created a documentary out of it. I went with another female entrepreneur and our two baby girls in the car for six days and we did, we drove from belong to the Sunshine Coast Audi Australia gave us the car. Airbnb put us up in beautiful properties all along the way and we held 53 events of business. Women had some amazing sponsorship deals along the way. Really sold that vision and people loved it. We had yes Air baby out of Australia and don't respond well, wellness partner partner, thank you group gave us nappies and wipes for the kids.
So it was huge and it was, it was an epic trip in a massive campaign and we were able to achieve what we wanted to, which was great. And I remember a few weeks after just catching cold from one of the kids quite a little at the time and that turned into the flu and I was bedridden for days and hallucinating from the fever and it was the first time I think by then it was about july that year and that was the first time all year actually stopped prior to that I was sleep deprived from having little kids in the business. I was always on my laptop to about what I was feeding my daughter at the time. So I would think I'll instead of going to sleep and being working by her to feed them as well to stay up and then up early the next day and I was living on my laptop and it was, you know, the topic of many fights with my partner at the time is you always work you and I was like, but I love it. I'm so passionate about it and you know, I've got to help these women and yeah, big mission be purpose, big dreams, but big burn up.
Yes, it sounds like it caught up all too quick. Them. Yeah, sure did. Yeah, wow. Okay. So you're forced to take a little bit of time off because you're too unwell to do anything. Did you start having realizations then or were you just punishing yourself and telling yourself to get better so you could get back to it? I was still working at some point. I was also doing three days a week in the marketing and partnerships throw with a football league and I remember writing emails from my bed or sorry, seeing emails that I sent a couple of days later, not remembering actually writing them, which was dangerous. So I, I remember at one point laying there and thinking, yeah, my partner and I at the time went, we were fighting, so we weren't talking probably due to be working all the time and I remember thinking something's gotta give, there's nothing in my life where it was bringing me pure joy. Everything I did was driven by being a business owner, being parent, being partner, being being an employee, there's nothing that I did that just gave me joy and I loved my business and I loved my community of amazing businesswoman, but you know, there was nothing that separated that from being part of the business.
So I and I was not prioritizing my health and wellness at all, I was not as he wasn't eating that well and feeding as well, so probably needed to be doing a bit more and yeah, I remember thinking I needed to make some big changes. I started with, you know, like an easy or one of those packaged meal services because I'm not, I don't love cooking and I thought that's quick and easy And then I decided to get back into dancing, which is something that I did in my early 20s, so I could have that that joy in my life. Yeah, I had to make some big changes. So by the end of that year, well I decided by the end of the year that I was going to sell my business and uh and my relationship because we've been quite miserable for some time and it was not repairable and I think I knew that and we're friends now, so, and he knows that I talk about these interviews and stuff, so I had to make some big calls and I ended up getting into dancing and I had this new different life and family that were these people I've met through dancing that had nothing to do with business.
They didn't, some of them knew who I was because of being um in local press and stuff on the peninsula, thought they'd heard of the business, but otherwise I was, it was quite nice to be a bit anonymous and not have to talk about business for work or kids. I could just stab. It was awful. Yeah, So going back to your original passion, do you perform dancing? I did for a few years, I was competing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that was the next thing. I actually, yeah, I had another big one and it was because I threw myself into dancing, so I sold the business eventually end of that year and I've been dancing in for about six months and once I sold the business, I thought I'm going to compete. That's me, that's what I do. Type a personality total over achiever was a perfectionist. I'm reformed now and uh this is just what I do. I go all in on everything. I don't know how to just enjoy things and I mean, I do enjoy them, don't get me wrong, but I always want more about my daughter.
So I decided to start competing. I found a dance partner and we were driving all over the state, attending dance competitions and all of my spare time was spent training either at home or in the studio. Yes. I merely stopped one obsession for the other. Yes, Yes. And okay. So what did this burn outcome as this time? The second time was brutal and I didn't really see it coming. So this one was probably good 15 months after the first and it wasn't just because of the dancing, but my situation had changed drastically and although dancing had kept me had brought the joy and I had new friends and everything and I ended up going into the role, the three day a week job that I have, I ended up going into that full time once I sold the business and then decided it wasn't for me and there's a bit of a boys club, that that role being in a football league and and that's probably part of something we can add to the conversation later, so I decided to leave and I put it out there to the community, you know, and via social media that I was looking for something, a bit of a dream job and an opportunity arose, I grabbed, it was pretty perfect and then just before the three month trial period ended, I was made redundant and it was two days before the national, the Australian dance competition, so the biggest competition of the year that I've been training hard for two days before that, it was early december, a couple of weeks before christmas, you know, solo parenting of kids week on, week off and I hadn't done christmas shopping or anything yet and I just thought, oh my gosh, what am I going to do instead of?
I thought that would be fine, beautiful and work and just, I'll focus on the camp, did the competition and then, you know, reality hit really after the adrenaline more off and all of a sudden, you know, I found myself freaking out going a bit, no income, no job, you know, all of a sudden being a solo parents felt a lot harder obviously and felt quite lonely and I had a new dance partner teed up and then he pulled the pin and so I had no dance partner and everything just felt like it was crashing down around me. So I ended up finding a role that was a bit of a junior role compared compared to what I've done prior. So I took it on anyway, just to have an income paying the mortgage and all of that, And started seeing someone who was a friend who's been a friend of mine for about 20 years, so that was all rosy for a bit and then that wasn't working and and the job that I was in was pretty awful, the workplace was awful.
It was, it was a terrible toxic place and I felt really stuck. So I thought I would throw myself into dancing then doing my regular classes and everything and typically people will learn 1123 different or new dances per term at the studio and I decided I heard that there was a record of 12, so I decided to take on 12 dropped once I learned 11 in three months. And then at the end of that three months you're supposed to perform them and there's adjudicators and and you graded and did did pretty well. But the week or so leading up to the assessment day, I was really, really sick, vomiting, head spins massive nausea. I was really unwell from the stress of pushing myself and training and ended up pretty much just crashing and yeah, I landed myself in hospital for a few days and the guy I was seeing bailed it was a bit much for him and my mom resigned for me from the job that I had at the time because I didn't know when I was going to be okay to come back.
So yeah, I just, I think I had a massive identity lost after selling the business and so many changes and yeah, it was huge. So that one was really tough. Yeah. And yeah, really tough that one. And I had to call on help with my family and my close friends were the only ones that knew, and that was hard because I'm a very independent person who doesn't love asking for help. Yes. Another trade of the A type. Yes. All right. So, is this when you learn your lesson at the second one? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Finally. So that's when I thought, okay, it's time to make some really drastic changes in my life. I've always been a very positive person. I'm I will always see the silver lining. And I still did. It just took me a while to get myself and my spirit back where it was. So, I started working out and when I was training as a, when I was dancing, I wasn't allowed to do weights and that sort of thing because I had to be quite lean.
So I was like, I can, I can do wait. So, I started training working out, I started eating really well and just, yeah, it changed my life and and started looking at the way I prioritize things and my time for my loved ones and yeah, I made some big changes and you know, the person I was back then and it was only actually two years ago compared to now is completely different. And, you know, I work out 3 to 43 to five times a week now, I went through a period during Covid last year, I was working out six days a week because I just thought nothing else to do. So I kind of did throw myself into that, but in a healthy way. So yeah, working out, I go for a run when I can. I have shakes for breakfast. I have really amazing like healthy snacks during the day. I have protein shakes after my workout and you know, make sure I prioritize time with loved ones, do the things that bring me joy and I can still be passionate and all even, you know, my business and my career as well.
It is possible to do all of the things, just not at the same time. So it's just, you know, time management is another thing as well. Yeah. And it seems like as well like that trade of yours to go 120% at everything. But if you've only got 100%, you've got to sort of divide them between all the things, don't you? That's exactly right. So you've seen that this tends to be something I guess that happens to. Well, people generally, but women as well more so well. I don't know if it's more so, but it's obviously the people you're speaking to more than anyone else. Yeah, I think women talk about it more like anything. We're more open about what we're going through. And that's one thing that we found in doing research with different people in our community. The men go through it too. They just don't talk about it as much like anything around mental health really. Yeah. So there are positive changes happening, but it's slow. Yeah. Progress this and your burnouts were quite huge mack trucks.
But a lot of people I understand a sort of sitting potentially in chronic burnout and not not listening to the little taps. Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know, there's still times where I'm close, but now I can recognize the things the triggers, I guess for myself, for the different symptoms and signs, it will pop up. I will now actually go, oh, okay, I need to back off on this or I need to cancel some stuff from my calendar or I need to say no more to things that are coming up. And I think what I used to do that, I don't do anymore is say, Oh, look at that. I've got all this space in my calendar in a couple of months, you know, and say yes. Anything that came up and not leaving any space for life is dangerous because things will pop up, new deadlines will happen. You'll be invited to things that you might have to go to things. Life just happens. And if you don't have a buffer there to allow for that, that's when you can become unstuck, Even all your best laid plans can fall apart.
If you don't have that space there. And that flexibility. Mm. Yeah. So there are some significant changes. Can you give us a definition of burnout? I think there's a really great one actually on your website. Yes. And I can't think of it off the top of my head now but it's something along the lines of prolonged, overwhelmed and stress being overloaded from work after a certain amount of time that I think, you know, that's kind of talking about workplace stress. But that overwhelming burnout can come from different places that it can come for busy parents. It can come for students. Caregivers now. Industry, that industry specific as well. But I think after obviously last year and still going in some countries, you know this ongoing worry and concern about either people are working more or longer hours because they're worried that their jobs Yeah, they're feeling that threat.
The job might be taken away and then there's others that are losing their jobs and you know, it doesn't matter what it is like burnout can come from any different sources. So it is really hard. It's quite prevalent now. So we are finding that a lot of different stories will come through and it's not just you Typical, I'm working 50-60 hour weeks and I'm exhausted. I've got no time for me and all of that. Yeah. Which is scary. Yes. Yes. Part of the definition, I just pulled it up that I sort of related to was a general apathy overall. Like I guess a bit of a loss of joy definitely. Yeah, you've got this relentless drive and you just end up whipping yourself and every thing's pretty blah. Yeah. And there's the guilt. I think that is really tough as well. And that that's still something that I have not. I found the answer to maybe I never will. But it's really hard when you place very high expectations on yourself.
And if you're saying that you're not meeting those expectations and then you feel guilty and it can be really hard to say no. Or set boundaries will step away from something that you might be really excited about or a project that you're involved in, that you know, you love doing but you really don't have capacity for. And that can be hard. Mm hmm. So I was going to say, what do you teach us in the club? But that is way too big a question because I guess there are so many elements and as you say, if the burnout is arising from the different areas in your life, there would also be a different things to focus on. I guess definitely. Where does someone start? Look, we offer a free burnout kit. And that's a really good starting point. So that's 18 pages and it covers everything from you know, setting yourself up for a perfect day or an ideal day?
It talks about having healthy sleep routines and it talks about book having bookends for your day. So little regular kind of rituals that you can do to start and finish your day and then all of the other, you know, stuff that we talk about that's important, eating well, drinking water exercise, you know. Yeah. And you know, some people love meditation and you know, the idea of getting away for a weekend or retreats and all that sort of thing. But that those options are not accessible for everyone. And sometimes if you are swamped and you can't say no or you know, pull back on what you're doing, you need those little any little tips that can help you. So that Bernard keeps ideal for that as a starting point. And then from there we offer a program as well. Many course and that is the three module mini course that focuses on like work and burn out because they are all the things that sort of overlap. Yes, I did download the burnout kit and it is great that it's just, it's a lot like a this is what you have to do.
It's like a here's a menu of all the things because I've spoken before about, I put the self care on my list of things to do. And then it becomes another thing to feel guilty about when you're not doing it. Yes, exactly. And you know, self care can look like different things to different people as well and it doesn't have to cost anything either. Some people think it has to be a big extravagant, you know rekindle way or what have you, But it doesn't have to be that way. It can just be ensuring that you're scheduling in self care to your calendar every day or every week. You know, like you would schedule a meeting with a client or, you know, your lunch break for instance, it can be tiny little things that end up being a preventative measure to burn out rather than reactive. Mm. Yeah. And I guess it's potentially a bigger discussion to have about our generation and future generations because it seems like if we're always sort of going to be pushing up against burnout because that's the way life is now.
What has to change potentially in society and our expectations of each other to it seems like if we're all very close to burnout, why don't we give everyone a little bit of slack? But we're definitely not at that point, are we? No. And it's tough because I think whilst the idea is great, there's still some companies that have that fear of or, but if we give them too much, you know, that they won't perform as well or, or yeah, the commitment levels change or whatever it is. And I think too many companies are saying, look at us, we're taking the wellness stocks and it's a, you know, self care or a health assessment that you can do and you go through the questionnaire and then at the end of it, here's some helpful articles you can read on helping, you know, and that's the bigger picture is the workload. It's the flexibility of the times and days that we work. It's the little benefits and perks companies can offer to show that they actually care rather than just taking box ago here.
Yeah, it is a big bigger picture. Yeah, absolutely. And a discussion about values and if all we're valuing is doing things faster for less. It's only going to have this burnt out, isn't it? Rather than Yeah. Uh Yeah, very interesting. So everything that you've learned and gone through, What advice would you go back and give to your 21 year old self? If if you would, funnily enough, I was thinking about her the other day because I have a photo, I found a photo and I've got up on my wall next to me, that's the first business I ever started didn't make any money, but it was a business. I registered the business name And I was 21 then and so 19 years ago and that was the first business I ever registered. I've had about five or six actual businesses since then and I changed my life or my way that I was living at the time because I was I had this great idea and I was inspired by Richard Branson and a bunch of other people.
And I thought, yeah, I'm going to do this like this is I can do it, you know, and back then and even now it doesn't matter about your age, there's always going to be people that doubt youth and doubt your ability. So the only thing I would probably say to her is to just keep going no matter what, don't listen to, you know, the negativity and those around you that are probably feeling bad because they're not doing anything or they don't have any dreams and they want to pull you down to their level. So I think that's probably the biggest one is just keep going if you believe in it, do it and I'd give that advice to myself every day, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Do some good advice. It's like keep going not to make others happy, but because you believe in yourself, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Which which is linked with burnout, isn't it? Because if we're if we're doing things for others and not for ourselves, that's probably because we're trying to keep people happy.
Yeah, that's right. And you know, that is a general challenge of life anyway, is knowing where to draw the line when you are, you know, wanting to be helpful and supportive, especially for your loved ones in your life. But knowing when it's time to pull back and and take care of yourself as well. Yeah. Show up as a better person if you do. So what are some of the rituals that you book end your day with? Yeah. So my morning is pretty simple, but it's enough for me. I'm not a huge, I'm not, my mind is too noisy to sit still for to meditate. But I've definitely been trying to do that more. So my day starts pretty early because I work on my business before my day job starts. So I get up and I make a pot of coffee and I love the ritual of that, the smell, you know, turning the gas on the stove. All of that is just a nice, really, really calm sort of way to start the day if it's a week that I've got the kids, you know, they're not up yet.
So it's calm, it's dark, it's quiet and then I just do a 10 minute meditation God, it's cold at the moment. And when so grab some blankets and just sit under a blanket and and, and that's a do the same meditation each morning. And and it's a really nice way to start the day before I get onto the laptop. And once I'm on the laptop in the zone and the music comes on and that's sort of my morning. So it's pretty basic in the evenings. I used to be notorious for working until bedtime. So now I'm really conscious of trying to turn the laptop off even if it's only half an hour before I go to bed. Either staying, you know in my office and reading a bit of a book or listening to some music or playing guitar just to do something that's not just staring at your laptop straight before bed is good. I know people do different things like lighting a candle or giving the lights just a signal to your body that it's nearly time to rest. And then if my mind is thinking many things to do, you're running 100 miles, I'll actually just do a bit of a brain dump in my phone before bed as well rather than just mulling over things in the night, which I do.
Sometimes I just put a few things in my notes or if I remembered to do something that, that I hadn't done that day, you know, I set reminders. I live on reminders of my phone. So I said a few reminders for those things the next day rather than going, I'll just jump back on my laptop now. So that can be hard, sometimes I'll do a bit of that. And then I tried to do a meditation in bed is, well if I can and sometimes it puts me to sleep and other times I'm still wide awake but I just at least you're in bed and you sort of signaling it's time to time to relax and get ready for sleep. Yeah, winding down. It's so important. Yeah. I love the tip of doing the brain dump and getting it all somewhere and if it's into your phone or whatever it is. Stop your mind going around and around trying to remember those things. Yeah, So crucial. Well, I've really enjoyed diving into this and learning a bit more about your story because I certainly remember coming across the store collective probably around the time you were doing everything you did. So, yes, it's wonderful to hear about the whole road that's taking you now to the Burnout Club.
And uh yeah, we'll put the links all in the show notes for everyone to the main page and also where you can get that kit as well. I think that it's a great start, isn't it, with the menu that you have. So where else would you like to direct people to contact you if they wanted to? Yeah, the website is probably the best place and that's the burnout club dot com. We are on instagram and facebook, but we mostly hang out on in stuff. We have a facebook group as well called the Burnout Club community and we have about 80 or so people in there. It's just tricky because burnout is a, is a tough thing. You want to give people information and you want to help them, but you don't want to overwhelm people who are already overwhelmed. So we're careful about the way we share content and ideas and the podcast is probably the best, best place to get information from because you know, it's self paced, you can listen when you're struggling with something. We've got about 30 odd episodes there now, so it's nice to hear other people's stories about how they went through burner and how they got out of it because it means it shows you that there is a lot at the end of the tunnel.
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, if anyone relates to that, I really recommend jumping on having a look at that definition as well and then it's a matter of choosing what will fit into your life. So yes, thank you so much, jess. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for having me ducky. It's been lovely to chart, right? I think the biggest thing for me is a surprise was how it could happen twice. It's like when she said it happened the second time, I'm like, oh my God, and when I was listening to her, when she was talking about the dancing and I did I wasn't aware that there was going to be a second bear now, I was like, it's going to happen again, It's going to happen again. And then it happened again. Yeah. And sometimes it's it's not even, you know, it's just we just don't learn, do we? And she was talking early on about it being part of her personality just to do a million things and to be very driven and the second burnout was sort of, she was just as busy, but doing different things.
So she thought she was enjoying what she was doing, It will almost crept up, didn't it, because you almost think, well, it doesn't matter if I'm busy because I'm enjoying what I'm doing and it's for me. But your body doesn't distinguish that. Is it? Your body is just going while I'm still pushing, pushing, pushing, whether it's dancing or cooking or knitting or whatever it is that you're going to be doing, that you're pushing. And I think she she said at the end with that definition, but it's true. It's that, you know, constant overwhelmed that you're in for a long period of time that causes that. So again, it's not the activity. It's the fact of what's happening in your body without that period of rest. Yeah. Yeah. So she's got, I'll read that complaint um definition from the top of her website, which is when I first heard about what she was doing, I jumped on a website and this definition really rang true.
So it is fatigue, frustration or apathy resulting from prolonged stress overwork or intense activity. So, yeah, it can result from a few things from chronic stress which may not be over work, but just because there is something really stressful in new circumstances, it can be the overworked, which was the first burnout. It seemed like her second burn out was the stress and act over activity rather than over worked, didn't it? Yes. But I also think it's all the other shit that goes on on the periphery, like, you know, her relationship that wasn't so great at that time. You know, young kids, all of that. And then again, you know, doing the whole thing that we all as alphas do other women do is not asking for help. So you know, if if you add that on top of whether it's over work or stress, it's a recipe for disaster. It's funny though, I had a period a couple of weeks ago where I was talking to one of my best mates in the U.
K. And I was like, because I'm so aware of it because of all of our talks, I was like, if I don't have a weekend of doing zero, I'm going to I'm going to feel the same in terms of that burnout. And he's like, you have to have four weekends of not working. And I'm like, yeah, but it's not work, it's what I enjoy. And he's like, no, I'm how do you know, you need to have four weekends for your body to recover and your mind to recover and he's right, it's now been two weekends of not work. And I feel so good. Like it feels like I've had a holiday or something, and all I've done is not working on the weekend for in a row. Yeah, four in a row. And he's really good at this stuff. So he was like, I'm telling you now, and I'm like, no, I can't just like not work. And then I'm like, what does work mean? Because I'm also studying as you know, at the moment and he's like, no study, no laptop, nothing to do with any personal development or EQ or collective or, and I think, um, and I'm like, oh My God, four weeks, but I did.
And this second weekend I literally did nothing. I played games with gear, we caught to be baked and I can feel like I've walked off the ledge to be honest. Oh, wow. Okay. So it's definitely helped. It's what it is. It's a circuit breaker. So, you know what she was saying is she was on the laptop till before she goes to bed, there was no circuit breaker for her. And then she's probably, if she's anything like how I know I used to be, is you then go to sleep and you still think about work like in your sleep and your conscious subconscious mind, you're still thinking of work doing work. Yeah. And I suppose you can do it in short, heavy periods at some point, which is sort of where I was trying to take the conversation as well because if, you know, you have to, um pushed through a hard period to get to the other side, you can do that, but it's when there is no other side and it's almost like this resilience thing that we've talked about, there has to be a bounce back, but if you, if there's just a constant push because you never get a bounce back or relief that corrects you into this chronic sort of burn out.
So it's, if you feel that fatigue and frustration and apathy about everything, but your body doesn't collapse, so you just like, oh well keep going. Yeah, and we talked about that before, but it's, it's also the rest before the bounce back, which is the true definition of the word resilience. You know, there's a misconception that you just got to bounce back because you had a little bit of a knock. No, you can have a rest. And like my four weeks equivalent of four weekends of no work, is that risk before the bounce or it could be the two days off before the bounce back into the monday, but there's got to be that period of rest, but also I think that we trick ourselves and we go, oh, it's another two weeks or it's another two weeks before, you know it, you've done three months or six months, Yeah, and you've just gone and gone and gone and gone and gone and then you think about, you know, the milestones that you've had in terms of big life events that have accumulated on top of the actual no rest and it's, it's pretty Fillon, there's this really cool, really, really short exercise that I do with clients and it's like you put a timeline in for like two years or three years across the page in this, in this period of months and then you put in on the top the highs that you've had, you know, you dot them and you just write down what it is and on the bottom in the period of months, you just dot the lows or the stressful periods and then you actually look that even though you've had the highs, there's still a period of stress associated with that high, but people look at that period of high as, you know, that's my break, but it's not because you're still bouncing off that high and you're doing stuff and if you look at that graph, it's a constant up, down, up, down, up, down, where is that rest before you can bounce back to that next really good thing.
So why are we so expected or why do we think that we're expected to be flat out all the time or it is, is the lifestyles that we've all created ourselves? They are so packed with things. So do, is the answer saying no more often. Like when we spoke to Bridget a few weeks back, I don't think it's about it being packed. I think it's about what we do and I'm a big believer of, we do more because there's a certain void that needs to be filled and that's harsh to hear. But there is, you know, you over work because what you're worried about where your mind is going to go or what, what are you feeling if you, if you're not working, it cannot constantly be the excuse of I'm an entrepreneur, I need to work for everyone's a lot of people are in that boat. But it goes beyond that from an emotional point of view of what are you running from? What are you escaping from? And whether that's a fear of failure rather than a thing. But what is the emotion that you're trying to cover up there?
Because it's their the emotion you're trying to cover up is there? I I knew what mine was. Mine 100% fear of failure. You know it was when I set my business up, my partner was like, you know it's not going to work, it's not going to work and it wasn't set in a malicious way. It was just said with his concern and I was just like fuck you, I'm going to prove you wrong. But that was my driver to work crazy hours to prove them wrong. And even now I'm divorced, I'm still trying to fucking prove them wrong. But I mean it's like but we put that on ourselves. No one else does. It's our own avoid or fear of whatever it is that's driving us to do what we do. Uh huh. Yeah, I think mine has a lot to do with my worth. Yeah mm Or it's a need to be liked which is why we constantly say yes to everything. People pleasing. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, not having those boundaries in place. But yeah, I think, you know, for me, I always, I always do go back to that and I ask myself, what am I running from? What am I hiding? What am I doing? That's making me Work 18 hours a day and you're right.
There is a difference between meeting a deadline and I've done that before and it is purely for a deadline, but if it's not and it's just too much then you just have to park something. You just have to just gotta park it. I know that Elijah and I elijah, my business partner in the States. We always started, we started off the collective and it's going great guns which has hired the marketing agency. We're doing all the graphics setting up the landing page, but there was a period of engaging the marketing company and actually doing the work. We had to wait six weeks because I'm like, I just haven't got physically, haven't got the time to even brief these guys and give them what they need to do the work. So he said to them, we paid you, but we just need to give us six weeks and they were like, yeah, absolutely sweet. No issues. But that was a call, we had to make to go, we just have to wait six weeks before we do this. Yeah. And I think part of the problem is as well that when, when you that flat out, it tends to be some of the things that you enjoy the other things that go first. Yeah, which is, which is sad, but I mean you and I have both added back in training into our lives in the last few months.
Not that I ever let it go completely, but I wasn't training to the extent that I could have, but then nothing else gave, so I've just had to, and you're similar, you've just gotten up earlier and earlier to fit it in. Yeah, exactly, that, yeah, and you know, we've been also working on a book for 18 months and it's just, I've got to say it's not a priority, even though it's enjoyable, it's just like, well, what, what am I doing this for, yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is we've just got a question why we're doing it and I think if we can go back to that, why as uncomfortable as it is, it will help us snap out of that thing, because I almost feel like when we're in that, in that phase of burnout, we're on autopilot, we're not thinking we're not really at the forefront of mind going, oh, if I do just keep carrying, I'm going to burn out. You see the signs, you told them down, you see the signs, you hear that voice, you just go, it's fine, another another couple of weeks, another couple of months I'll be okay, I'll be okay and then it hits you like it did and he'll end up sick and in hospital and then it'll be like, oh okay.
And even then you'll justify and go up. Everyone's here quite now. It's cool. You know, it's okay. There's nothing that bad. Everyone's got a cold. I was a bit tired. Mm It's the stories we tell ourselves. Right? Mm hmm. Very much a good challenge. Them. We do, We do. Yeah. And I'm actually having a lot of guilt come up. Like if I was actually okay and doing the things that I love and not hustling so hard. I already had all this guilt come up just to be thinking about it. But then you've got to be okay with that. You've just got to go okay. You know what? I'm going to sit in that guilt for a while. It was inside. Mm Let's sit in the girl who cares because you know what? Maybe that it's that guilt that's going to heal you. Yes. Mm So it's okay to feel that go through it. Feel guilty for it. Mm Yeah, guilty to whom that was Well like spit bizarre, isn't it?
Yeah. And then there is the whole comparison trap, you know like there is, You know, I was watching this interview yesterday. I've got to send this to you. I'll talk to you about it offline. But it's the meditation thing that we've got through Dent. But and he was talking about, he's the co founder of insight timer mm and he was talking about How his life was. He was like, you know because I had 70 staff. I was doing deals. I was, you know, I was raising money, I raised 20 million and he's talking about all this stuff that he's doing very casually and I'm like fuck, like I'm just like building a course and Running two jobs at the moment. Like I'm not doing any of that shit that he was doing, he didn't have, they're not, he was fine, you know? And and then it makes you question, well we just swinging that we're busy when actually there's people there that are doing more, you know what I mean? It did for a split second. My mind went then I'm like, oh my God, she stopped because you know, everyone's circumstances are different, everyone's capacity is different and you can't go, one person is busy is is more busier than you're busy, you know?
But it was I did catch myself thinking that yesterday comparing myself going, what, why am I having four weekends off? This guy? Probably just worked four years straight. Look at the success he's got, it's amazing, you know. Yeah, but you can't do that, you just got to go with what's right for you at that moment in time. It's a really good example. I've stopped listening to a lot of the male entrepreneurial content and stuff that comes out of the U. S. Because it is a lot of that stuff isn't it? But you know what? A lot of them have a wife at home, I don't have a wife at home, you have a wife at home, yep, I have a needy cat to Yeah, but it was a really really really insightful podcast. I'm going I'm going to share it with you and he talks about this thing that he he did to literally just transform his life. And he and he remember I told you the story of Glen Carson, the dent guy and he couldn't meditate, he was up burn out.
And the epiphany moment for him was when his daughter said daddy is sad and he's like hang on a minute, I've got everything I made my money, I've got a beautiful wife, beautiful daughter. How the hell am I sad? And he just had lost joy in what he was doing and he this guy taught him this 20 minute twice a day practice that has transformed his life and brought joy and balance and literally got rid of the fatigue and burnout. So I've been banging on it glenn for like weeks to get this info for both of us. I got it last night it was just funny that the whole purpose of watching this was to reduce burnout and I'm missing the sky going comparing my shit to him going I'm not doing enough And then on top of that I'm listening to it at 1:30 falling asleep to it. And what am I doing listen to it in the morning when I'm fresh to stop, go to bed. Yes. Oh my God, that wasn't last night, was it? It was, yeah, I fell asleep to it as well. So I'm going to re watch it again today.
But yeah, we do that. Our minds just play so much, you know, so many tricks on us. But I think for me is the awareness. I'm just more aware of it now when my, when I do that, I can pick it up quite quickly and shift it. And I think you're, you're getting there as well with that. You're pretty aware of it too to feel that guilt so straight so quickly and be able to name it and go, hold on, explore it. Yeah, but on the flip side it's like, well, it's all good and well to notice when you, you know that you burnt out, once you've made it financially. Yeah, when you haven't and you're like, I've got to keep going to pay the bills. I mean, I know that there's probably a lot of things that we're doing that's not very valuable and that's always culling those things down, but there's also not enough money to pay someone else to do those things and those things need to be done or is it questioning? Well do they really need to be done?
No, but it goes back to what we were saying just 3, 4 minutes ago. Is that taking four weekends off isn't going to stop you paying the bills? Yeah, I get that. But it's also going to mean a project is four weeks behind. Yeah. But ultimately that's not going to stop you. No one's saying quit work. If we, if we realistically look at it, we're not losing our jobs. We're not saying don't work to pay the bills, it goes back to what my friend said, he said the same thing. He's like, you're taking four weekends off. Doesn't mean you're getting less money in, is it? Or So I'm like, no, it's not. It really isn't. It just means I'm pushing more and potentially will get money a bit quicker if that, I don't know if that would happen. But he's like, what we're telling ourselves, isn't it? Yeah, but it's true. Like what is if you if you took now four weekends off or even took one day off a week, it's not going to reduce your income. The bills are still there. The money's going to come in and we've got to pay all it means is we are fueling our body instead of our business for those four weeks.
And you know what? Honestly, I feel that good after only two weeks already done it for two weekends and this weekend I haven't got gear. So it's going to be even more exciting to do nothing on the weekend and just potter around the house. But you know, if you it's almost like you're filling your tank again so that when you do bounce back after the rest, you actually, you know what? We might even get this book done in the next two weeks now because we've got this break. Do you know what I mean? It's like it's given us that space to go, okay, I'll recover and and I will then push back a little bit more after that. Because I've got to admit, I feel far less efficient in burnout than when I'm not close to burnout. You know like. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you know, she said yesterday in the interview that she has sent emails and hadn't even remembered that she had sent them. You know, like imagine the brain fog that you're going through when you're in that state and then that goes on to, you know, we talked about that before but we project that onto our clients and yes customers and the people around us and they feel that they feel that Heaviness around us and people don't wanna be around us.
Yeah. Yeah. Or they feel like you haven't got time for them. They feel rushed because you are rushing them. Mm. Mhm. So yeah, I challenge anyone here. Like I got challenged, Take four weekends off and don't look at work, don't pick up a laptop and do something for you. It's been great. I had a 2-hour nap in the afternoon this weekend. I'm like 2 to 4 p.m. Which is like, what? Yeah, sounds good. I quite often do that at least one day on the weekend, to be honest. Yeah. So this weekend for me is a whole lot of chores, so not really work at all. The dogs need vaccinating. I need new tires on the car. I need to prune the roses at the office. So a whole lot of stuff that's off the computer that's for sure. Good. And then hopefully one day you can just have down time for you. I have a couple of long runs, which is my down time. Yeah. Read a novel. Mhm. Good. Yeah, that's the plan.
What else, what's coming up for you? Um for me, I'm working on the collective at the moment as my designer is working on the content for EQ A So it's good. The week's been like, really interesting. Like, you know, we do a couple of sessions a week on building content. She gets content from my brain, makes it look amazing. And then on the other side, we're building the look and the feel and the content for the collective, which is a membership site. So it's getting there, definitely a lot going on. But in a good way. It's stuff that I love and I enjoy, you know, so it's, yeah, it's great. Yeah. And you have given yourself six months. So that's good. Yeah, I got six months to build the contents. I'm not even Yeah. Yeah, it's just giving myself the time and planned it out really well and not put that pressure on to get it done overnight. So it's good about you tomorrow night. I've got a fundraising trivia night that our office has put on.
So that'll be fun. It got delayed from the june lockdown that we had. So it's finally coming back together. And then I'm also to some degree looking forward to their six weeks over the october period where my husband is going to be away in Northern Queensland. So I've got six weeks which will feel like a little bit less mental load. It's nice to have companionship but sometimes it's nice to also have a little bit of time by yourself. So, looking forward to that as well. Nice. Mm. Yeah. So we want to have a bit more of a conversation about burnout with our listeners. If you have any comments, please comment on. It meets GQ dot com that are you on our post on linkedin or obviously contact jess. Her website is amazing. Her download all those links will be in our show notes and where can they get a hold of you push? I'm the eq dot Academy brilliant.