mhm. Welcome to the I. Q. Next EQ podcast. I'm Jackie brahman, Principal solicitor at T. B. A. Law and Ceo of legally wise women? And I'm here with us, stanic former corporate lawyer then head of HR and now an emotional intelligence coach. Good morning rush. Good morning Chuckie. How you going? Good as always. Good. Another week. Yes. Yes, that's right. How are you? I'm good. I'm weak for into my P. T. It's a killer, but I'm enjoying it. Good. But I'm training at like 5:30 AM, which I'm so not used to doing and I'm trying to go to bed earlier, but it's not happening. So other than that, I'm great. Well, hopefully training is giving you more energy. Like the 456 week mark is usually an artist. Yeah, It's great. I'm actually loving it. And that's really good. Yeah. You're getting hungrier. No, but I don't have enough calories, funny enough. So I'm actually calorie counting at the moment to make sure that I'm eating enough. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that fascinating?

Mm hmm. I know. And that's why apparently it can affect your weight loss because your body is storing thinking it's not going to get food. Yes, I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to eat more calories it's so counterintuitive when you're like training. Yeah. But yeah, that's the plan at the moment is to eat more? Excellent. That's cool. Going well, yeah. Going really well. You, how was your week? Yeah. Good. Good. And it's a short week this week because of East are so oh good. You're recruiting recruiting staff, aren't you? I am, I am because we had a new solicitor start in january and I really need another one. So on that ball again, it's hard to recruit just what location wise you mean person or all of the above. Like we just don't get much of a response because of location. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah. But I mean people should get that. You can work from anywhere now. True. Yeah. It's the funny thing. Like I've always actually offered a couple of days work from home.

So I've always been fairly flexible and employees just don't get it. Sorry. Yeah, I don't know. We'll see. Have you put it on speaker as well? Yes, that's the main place. It is. Okay, good. So we'll see. Mm hmm. Ah so this week and I've actually been speaking with our guests about trying to hire as well because he is so well networked. So another male which is exciting and very emotionally intelligent. Ah this guest just makes me smile. So Matt Gaffney established his own consulting firm, an indigo in 2010. So it's been over 10 years now. He came from a corporate finance background working with price waterhouse and the y as well, worked his way up through Ey into management then partnership and was very much working in a diversity team and really started having a people focus and a leadership focus and that's very much what he does now working for himself.

He is a people developer and I think that it's just an amazing superpower when people have that. So let's have a listen matt Gaffney, welcome to the podcast. How are you this morning? I'm fine. Thanks Jackie. Thanks for having me. You're so welcome. So man, number two on our podcast. It's so exciting. Yes. Yes. So as you know, the podcast is very much about the listeners learning from the guests through their career journey and I've just knowing you were we met during covid. So it's only been in the last 12 months, your career path and your change and your resilience has, you know, sort of been highlighted for me and I just thought you are the epitome of I Q two Eq. So let's jump in and see what we can learn before you became who you are. What did you want to be when you were growing up, I started Jackie wanting to be an architect who could play cricket ideally for Australia.

And I think I worked out quite early in the piece that I could do floor plans. All right. But I didn't have the creativity or the confidence in the creativity and maintains to pursue it through. And I looked at architecture as a five year degree. I was the oldest of four kids with an ailing father and an overdeveloped sense of responsibility. And I said, well I'm good at numbers, Perhaps I'm better off to go down the sort of the accounting path. So I switched across the drop, graphics and art? The art teacher cried when I told her I was stopping art that I went down a very pragmatic path as a sort of 16 year old took up accounting, economics, legal studies, which was quite a natural alignment for me. So it pursued me towards doing something in terms of accountancy-related studies as a commercial business degree of some sort. So I did switch paths, but it's funny. I still work on my handwriting and I get people saying that the handwriting is quite nice and I sort of refer to it being the frustrated architect. So I don't think I had the confidence or the true creativity at the time to do architecture justice. I think it could have been a very sound drafts person.

But I think doing five years of study to be an overqualified draft person wasn't going to be the way to go. And where did you grow up? I grew up in the northwest of Melbourne. So my father had a pharmacy in many ponds. And so the family between many ponds, Ascot vale and ultimate airport west. So out towards Melbourne Airport and and the next door to Western airport. So I was up in that sort of part of Melbourne to the early twenties and then moved into North Carlton and being a cult and football club tragic. You know, I lived within walking distance of the spiritual home of my football club, which is pretty cool, that's fantastic. So you've chosen accounting, where did you study? And what did your career, where did that take you after studying? So initially I was looking to do the business degree at MIT on the basis or university on the basis if they did what they called a sandwich here at the time, which was put you out into industry between the 2nd and 3rd year study. And I was a painfully shy 17 year old finishing school and I thought that was a way to get some practical experience And then ultimately pulled bigger marks in the year 12 than I expected.

So I got enough marks to be eligible to get into commerce at the University of Melbourne. So I engaged with a couple of the bigger firms, HR leaders, which was pretty gutsy for me at that time and they said they're both good quality degrees but the prestige that comes with Melbourne University, it's something you can take on board. I ultimately decided to do commerce at Melbourne, I think with benefit of hindsight, I missed a much more practical degree at MIT but it got me started but the big change for me, Jackie was in my first year of university, there was a trainee accountant role advertised at a small three partner accounting firm in essen in and as I said, dad wasn't in the best of health, he was still working, but I don't think he had a great long term prospects at the time. And so I thought, well if I can be earning some money and getting some experience from having just turned 18, it might be a good way to go. So I applied for the role. I actually was offered the role midyear through first year uni, but at that time there were annual subjects. So I thought, well do I dropped from 4 to 2 subjects or do I knuckle down?

There was no scope to argue. Some flex flexible working arrangements didn't quite exist in those days. And so I went full time work Full time study for four months as an 18 year old and then managed to roll mum's car. I'm a paper plate sort of about six weeks after that. So it was a fairly complex first year of life after school. But we got out of the car accident, okay. Other than the insurance excess. But it got me on the path of getting some practical experience from being an 18 year old. So by the time I came around the final year of uni, I was applied for two of the, What was the big nine firms back then, both offered me rolls and it certainly wasn't based on the university marks. I had some credits, might have had the distinction, but it was more a solid university performance than the Stellar one. But as a 21 year old, I had 300 years of working experience at a small firm. So it just took me a much better stead. And then it started to build my professional confidence. So I was a different candidate. But it got me into Price Waterhouse to start my professional career, which was one of the best firms in the world at the time.

So, I mean very young, you're talking about having some insight into needing the practical experience. What did you think you needed from the practical experience? I think the practical experience was putting some of the learnings into putting some of the learnings into practice. But also from a confidence perspective, I was painfully shy teenager. And I thought this is something I think if I get if I immersed myself in it, I can actually build some professional confidence, which I think might help my personal confidence just became an environment where I just I felt like I could start to spread my wings. And then I saw I was actually making some progress. Was getting reasonably solid autonomy with clients Quite early on in the peace, firstly with the small firm in essendon. But then I was lucky enough with my first year at Price Waterhouse having a partner who gave me a lot of autonomy and direct access to owners of businesses of a key clients. And so it gave me the chance to really supercharge my career earlier mm hmm. And you said gutsy earlier, even though you were painfully shy, you still knew enough of what you needed to have the drive to do those things rather than hiding away.

What do you think? The difference is there with people who are shy and hide behind it are too anxious to take that step or the people who are shy and yet still go, I have to do this. I think in my case the circumstances might have been driven by dad's health. That just that being the oldest of four kids and I was expected to do the right thing. I was the oldest grandchild on both sides. So that was probably the cattle product I needed. I think if I'd had more relaxed set of circumstances, I would have been probably quite comfortable just to coast along. But it was probably a bit of a sense of duty and also a sense I think I've found a space that I can be good at in time, which was a bit of a booster for me. So you're at Price Waterhouse. How long for? I had 4.5 years with price waterhouse, which was fantastic time. Some of my friendships to this day date from the crew that I started with as a graduate in the late 80s. Including I was down in Tasmania last week and I stayed With one of the graduates and her now adult daughter who's like my honorary niece. So some of the friendships that were formed in early 20s with a great group of talented and energized younger people was a wonderful environment.

And then I was lucky enough to be poached by my major client. So he was one of the fellows I got the chance to work with quite autonomously early in my career. And he and his wife very, very generous people, john's probably john beaver, His name is probably the most generous person I've ever met. He and his wife tammy took my wife, Katrina and I when we got engaged and he said, oh what are you going to do when you grow up? And I said, I'll move on from chartered accounting and get into industry and work for someone like you, Would he let loose in an expletive. And he said, well, I've been talking about the prospect of actually getting you in here. So we metaphorically did a deal on the back of a napkin at this engagement dinner. And so he created a role of commercial manager for me. So it was the first time that had a qualified Person of the qualified commerce background in the business. So I was only 26 at the time, worked with john and his colleagues for 18 months full time, probably fitted in five years of life skills in 18 months, great experience wasn't going to be the right long term role for me. But it gave me some client side experience, gave me some industry credibility.

It gave me exposure, Had a flexible started very, very different circumstances to what I had been used to. And then when we worked out it wasn't gonna be the right longer term role for me where I was able to move on respectfully. I continued consulting to him on the side To help work through one particular project for about 12 months afterwards. But an opportunity came up at ERnst and Young now Ey so another one of the leading firms but it was in corporate finance which was a very different discipline. So corporate finance was mergers and acquisitions business valuations due diligence on potential transactions. So there's more around businesses Buying and selling and merging and the like. So they called me a manager based on a cumulative experience but I had no specific corporate finance experience has provided an opportunity to learn the ropes there and that underpinned what became 11 years working up through the ranks of Ernst and young and then five years in the partnership. Yeah, wow. And this is sort of more about what I've heard of your career because quite a few women in your network that I'm getting to know have talked about you managing very diverse teams in Ey and being quite progressive in that respect.

Can you tell us about I guess progressing through to management and partnership in Ey, certainly I was lucky enough that the work I started doing when I joined corporate finance was business and brand valuations and a lot of it was in branded consumer products but particularly beer, wine and food, all of all of which are the things that really appealed to me in my late twenties and early thirties. So I found again a space that I was actually really engaged around. I had considered going into the wine industry in the commercial role rather than going to Winston Young. But what I found I actually applied for an analyst role at the mine, the leading listed wine company in Australia at the time, mildara Blass to miss out to say that we're sorry we've just filled the role but good luck. Six weeks later I found myself working with the guy who got the role that applied for and we became good mates but I found out I was better off to be on the on the white side and worked with a range of wine companies from listed two family owned to little boutiques rather than just being in one role.

So I built up some expertise in that regard. It became a significant part of my portfolio and overtime part of my personal brand. But I think the big awakening for me was when a couple of colleagues from outside my division who were women who were stars or emerging leaders in there in different areas came to me and they said I'd like you to be my mentor and so to have the fact that people from beyond my sort of direct Catch me if you like had seen something, I was doing that resonated with them and they've both gone on. I'm still an active mentor to one of them more than 10 years on. But that put a real spring in the step to that. I was being seen as more than a technician around evaluation craft. So that gave me part of the confidence that I really needed at the time. I thought I'm good at doing the work. But if I'm ever going to consider partnership or whether the powers that be saw me as partner material, whether I saw myself as partner material and whether I wanted it and I saw myself as capable of pursuing it. I sat at a crossroads there for a while. We had two kids in quick succession in hindsight, quicker than probably planned, shall we say.

So they were only 15 months apart. Neither of them decided to attach early on. So you know, with my wife having been through the emergency Cesarean in the first case and Cesarean in the second case and then having to express milk and the like committed to doing the two am feeds until they slept. Each of them slept through. So I was chronically sleep deprived. I was doing 60 plus hours a week and I didn't know whether it was Arthur or Martha to be honest. So I got to a point where I was down on confidence. I was the level below partner, but I'd probably run out of steam and either needed to kick start things again or probably move on and rather than be stuck at that level in a big firm, I think probably go into industry and work towards being a chief financial officer or finance director, so it was a challenging time. I was mid thirties but I was offered an opportunity to do the future focus group program as a committee for Melbourne, which at the time was a 21 month program, a diverse group, ernst and Young nominated me and one and a partner had just come back from a number of years in the west and it was the catalyst for change.

I was lucky enough To get into the program, but my mindset was at that point, my wife and I think 90% of our friendships with people who had commerce, business or law to growth. So I made a conscious commitment to go and meet the scientists, the engineers, the artistic and creative types, and probably even more importantly for me, the people who thought differently to me and I didn't need to be best mates with all of them. But part of it was almost the understanding what made people tick, but it kicked off in me fascination in the human condition and Probably looking for more diversity in the people I interacted with every day, so that's almost 20 years ago I started that program, but that was the jumpstart I needed. And coming out of that program had certainly grown in confidence, had certainly grown in connectivity. I had a belief that I could pursue partnership and that I wanted it. And so I didn't know whether I would get it, but it was rather than sitting on the fence, it was, I'm going to have an almighty crack at this but I won't, I won't die wondering. And I went, The process got into partnership in 2005.

Mm hmm. Who was it? Who thought that that program would be good for you to say it was a masterstroke from one of the leaders of ernst and Young in Melbourne, but I had to get something signed by the managing partner of and staying in Melbourne at the time who wouldn't have known me from a bar of soap. So I walked into his office and I said, could you sign this for me? And as he was doing it, he had a letter not crumpled on his desk but sitting on his desk from the ceo of committee for Melbourne saying I would like to offer you two spots in the program. He handed me this letter and he said, is this of any interest to you? And I said yes And I had a look at it, the fine print and it was the induction event was going to start the next day. I called my wife and I said I've got good news and bad news and said I've just been given an opportunity to do a 21-month leadership program which is great and said I've got to disappear for two nights as of tomorrow. And she called me something and said yes but I understand. Yeah. Again it was a bit of a sliding doors moment so I wasn't seen overtly as part of a master plan for I was one of the first two people considered at the time but it was the right place, right time.

Yes. Well I was going to say that sliding doors moment for sure. That's great. Alright. So then you're in partnership but then I know you've had a big change since then too because you now work for yourself. So tell us how you got there. I will, I will big step up for me was starting my second year in the partnership And corporate finance as the division was known or became known as transaction advisory services was perceived by some as a black club and it wasn't helped by the fact that I think there were 20 partners in Melbourne at the time. And there was only one woman who was one of my good mates and the managing partner for the division for the region said I'd like to do a diversity and inclusion plan for those of you with a primary focus on gender diversity and I'd like you to chair the efforts of that committee, which was a real honor, but also just perhaps a validation that relative to my other male partners at the time that I was seen as just into my second year as a partner as perhaps one of the male partners who was closer to getting more of the agenda.

I didn't profess to having all of the answers at the time, but it was such a learning for me. And one of the recommendations we made was that we thought there was merit in having a client facing partner also being the regional people leader for the division. So that there's a conduit between partners and staff. There's perhaps someone who, on behalf of the partnership can talk more comprehensively and more confidently and more competently to issues around the broad people agenda, which diversity inclusion was one element of it and the managing partner. So that's a great idea. I'd like you to do that role, Which I hoped you'd say. But I couldn't say that quite a bit in the recommendations. So I got a 20% carve out from what they expected from me fi wise. So the ethos was both were expecting you to spend around 20% of your time as Oceania people leader for the division. And that was the start of me really building a sense of could at some point part of my career be anchored and can I monetize it on the basis of how do I help others build their career and I didn't know quite what it looked like at the time.

And so just so the seed made contributions there that were held in high regard by people who made it to me and others within even Y at the time. But then when the GFC hit and my valuation practice was seriously compromised, my two main clients went pear shaped within 12 months of each other. And then the jeffs led to far fewer transactions, far fewer tax driven restructures, both of which were catalysts for business and brand valuation work. So I was looking at a practice that was going down a plughole by then there's been a change in the leadership and as I was reporting to someone else who was really just driving things based off revenue and the like so I could see I was in a challenging space. I was actually offered the people leader role as a dedicated people leader role for the Americas which would have involved moving to new york city three year stint on paper. It looked fantastic. That was shut down in about two seconds when I went home and explained that one given the age of the kids and the like it was just wasn't what we wanted to do, but it's nice to have been offered it, but I dodged a bullet in the end because the person who took on that role actually had to walk a straight a significant downsizing of the Americas transaction advisory services practice.

So it would have been called the so and so from Australia. So I didn't take that role but I didn't want to lose the commercial side of what I've built up to that point. So I thought could I create something where I can do commercial work and people development work and I didn't want to stay in the valuation space. So I was quite happy to retire as a business and brand value. And I thought strategic planning is the form of commercial work I'd always loved but then I got too expensive too quickly to do it From probably after the 1st 12 or 18 months at the Y so I thought if I go out of my own reinvent myself which was a big ask at the time and had ramifications for family dynamics and finances and everything else. But can I create a new identity which is one of strategic planning and what I called executive coaching. So I was lucky enough by being that people leader to be exposed to a development coaching program, a deep intensive program that Ey was piloting. And so that was lucky enough to be two or three months before I left. So it gave me the sort of credential ization if you like to say I'm a strategic planning specialist and I'm an executive coach.

So I had a formerly white colleagues say well when you start coaching, I want you to coach me. I had a mentally say can we complement that was from coaching. I had a cousin who wanted to be coached and then a couple of weeks later the woman contacted me and said I heard you're an executive coach. I'd like you to work with me. So I had my first external piece of work if you like. That was 2010. So I set up my practice called an indica and 2010. So yeah, into its 11th year now, so a lot has changed. But the ethos of the practice is still one of strategic planning and people development being the two core offerings. But I found I found the space, so there's some other offerings in the mix now. So there's also, I do work around engagement, particularly industry engagement for the educators. Whether the universities, private schools has been a little niche that I'm looking to build out a bit further. I've got some help around businesses where they're wanting help around delivering on their plans, whether I've helped them with the development of a strategic plan and action plan or not, but really trying to drive more accountability and greater progress against plans.

But the strategic planning is ticking along nicely. The people development of up to 260° development coaching programs. Now, both personally commissioned an organization sponsored almost half of the coaching program, participants have been women, which blows my mind in terms of what I said and set out to do in the first instance, I'm running the future focus group program to which I referred earlier in terms of my own development. I've been leading the future focus group program as part of my portfolio for the community in Melbourne for over five years now, so that's about 60 hours a month. But what it does in terms of, allows me to bring some of my connectivity to bear. But also I'm continuing to build my connectivity in and around Melbourne from it. So it was hard yards in the early stages, but just the growth, particularly in recent years by the time a little thing called a virus came around, I thought I'm not going to let that get in the way. So as you said, Jackie, you and I met during the depths of that, but just having a business where I thought I have to adjust this for the new world order, I didn't want to do my work virtually until I had to.

So I made sure that every element of what I could do through the an indicator practice could be offered virtually and then has ultimately, but I would have been done successfully in various circumstances, but I must admit I'm enjoying having a greater proportion of face to face interaction on exploring opportunities with potential clients or refers and then actually doing more of the work face to face. So we've heard a lot of passion in your voice about what you're doing now. What though, other than as you said, the transition and the challenge is in making sure you've got enough revenue and support from the family and all of that. What other challenges have you faced? I think as I've gotten older, it's just, it's managing fatigue to some extent, I am not the world's best sleeper. But what I do is I try and walk at least a few times each week, but I tend to do a pre dawn or sort of right at the crack of dawn and I find that puts a real spring misstep in many ways. But part of it I think is By being an early riser, I just feel like I'm on top of my day early.

I do a lot of my thinking earlier in the day, so that plays a role and has done for 20 plus years. But what I've built into my campaign, if you like these days is I've got clients referrals and prospects beyond Melbourne for some of its regional Victoria, some of its into Adelaide some of it's Sydney and regional new south Wales and then a little bit in Brisbane, Canberra Perth and Hobart. But to build a sense of a trip that can be done where it's work related. So it gets me out of town. I love a road trip when I can do it, if you've got the time to be able to drive somewhere rather than fly but to go and do work in a different environment, use it as a chance to catch up with people whilst I'm there, whether that's professional or a little bit of personal, but that just means I can chunk the year into probably seven or eight sort of micro campaigns. So most people would say Australia day, Labor day, East Queen's birthday, afl grand final weekend, cup weekend, I used those as markers and break it up along those lines and then break it a couple more times based on schedule, it might be five days out of an Adelaide that might be a trip up to Sydney and Newcastle for example.

But I just find that road, the road trip time I find quite recuperative. It's not sure to me and between the walking and the well planned road trips with a bit of time for me, keep me in pretty good stead considering. Yeah, good. Alright, now you work with a lot of young people, your kids are also around this age, Going back and thinking of yourself as a 21 year old, what advice would you give yourself? There's a few things I'd look at is I'd look to broaden my connectivity earlier and I just, I think I found it was a safe environment because I found some like minded souls in around sort of the commerce agenda and then as an early professional people you're dealing with from law firms, but I think I would have pushed myself if I had to go now to broaden how I connect and our two older ones are 22 or 21 20 so you know, they're, they're moving in sort of different ways, but I think that socialized broadly, I'd love to think I could have had multiple mentors at any point in time. So in my twenties I did go to the trouble of finding a mentor early ish and making sure I had a mentor from outside the organization.

But I think The earlier in your journey that you can have access to, a couple of people from outside your employer where they can provide you with different perspectives and they're not caught up in the day today. So I've had multiple mentors in my camp for most of the last sort of 10 or 15 years at any point in time, but we would love to bring that to bear earlier. Just my biggest bugbear had been around presenting, so I've only made any significant progress on presenting in a public forum in the last four or five years and you shouldn't have to wait to fifties to do that, but I was petrified of public speaking and I think if I had my time again, whether it's around picking some training and or experiences to get cracking on that early and it's not to be, not to be a dominant in that space, but to be competent and I think competence brings confidence and that confidence as far as I'm concerned, I think would have transcended public speaking, I made more progress, I think pound for pound in my confidence presenting last year from the sheer volume of what I had to do virtually.

So now I'm finding that I'm doing back to face to face things, I am perfectly comfortable to do that for the first time in my life, but I had a major setback a few years ago with a car accident and that was sort of the catalyst to, I simply had to be braver. So I put myself in more situations and I think as I got more confident in what I was actually talking to, I was petrified, I think as a valuable that there'd be someone in the room who knew more than me and would point me out that I got something wrong. Whereas if I'm talking about a strategic planning agenda, if I'm talking about how people develop, if I'm talking about how organizations engage, I'm talking around accountability for delivering on a plan, there is no complete black or white, but there's there's a basis for discussion and I think that lack of absolute precision in every element what you're talking about and some some shades of gray if you like is that's given me confidence as well. So I would have loved to have done more on that early and the last one for me and this is something you know with some of the younger people I'm coaching one younger mentee is get to know the organizations that might be of interest as potential future organization, future employers and learn a bit about them and then ideally and even a toehold of connectivity into them.

So rather than them being this, I think I'd like to work for Sikh or I think I'd like to work for this law firm or for this bank, do some homework, read the annual report, have a look and see who the executives are and then stop and think who do you know anyone in there that you might have gone to school with or your union with them like because if they are organizations of potential interest, you can do a lot of informal due diligence if you like towards whether they are an organization, you say if they advertise or something, I'll put my hat in the ring, You've already done a bit of a homework on that one. That one is for me, that one now that I don't understand a bit more the industry they're in or the type of work they do or their social license isn't for me sort of thing really great. And then you said walking really helps. What are some of these other things you put into your life and build in to make sure you're checking in that you're well that you continue to be able to have the capacity to be brave. What do you do regularly to look after yourself? The other one I bring in regularly is music plays a critical part in my life, so I don't play, but I love listening to music and I've kept up broad tastes over the years, but I've stayed contemporary as well, so I'm over listening to the radio these days, but Spotify was a revelation to me.

So one of the, I've had a little niche working with elite cricketers around that. They're moving beyond their cricket careers into other careers and a number of the cricketers, I've been privileged to work with the music nuts. And so one of them basically got me a three month premium subscription and said, okay, if you've got no insert your favorite expletive excuse now you need to move with the times and get off itunes and into Spotify. But it was transformative. And even early in the, early in the first lockdown in Melbourne last year, my little mission was I was build a playlist every day for a few weeks, just think of a band or an act and say, okay, we'll go and curate 10, 15, 20 songs from that act. So I'm now the beneficiary of them. So when I'm doing these road trips, I say, well, what do I feel like listening to today, but there's quite an eclectic mix on there. So the music plays a role and I know if I'm not 100%, I can actually put headphones on and put the music on in the car and that can give me quite a positive kicks up look matt.

This has been fantastic to both learn more about your career and also more about you. Thank you so much for sharing and I'm sure it's going to help a lot of people where can people connect with you and reach out for you and find out where you know, they might benefit from some programs you've got, I'd love them to get in touch if they're interested. And even just from exploratory chat, like as I said, my fascination with the human condition now is, yeah, I love people getting in touch with me reaching out to people, but my practice is called an intake O E N I N D I C E O. So people ask where that came from, but I was pushed by a coach early in freelance life on who are you, what do you stand for? And so I worked out what I thought with my four major attributes. So it was energy insights, discipline and collaboration. So I reported back, I thought that was pretty cool. And then I was on my way to lunch in Melbourne and I walked past the display in vintage sellers, the liquor shop of sabotage, which is the Western Australian winery and it's named after sally lisa tara and Jared Hogan and it gave me an idea.

So I'm walking up little Bourke street and saying, okay, if I picked up the first two letters of these four attributes, I put them in different orders. I thought he and I and II ceo sort of run this. Okay, so me being a control freak over organized at that point in my life, I Detoured on the spot to the registration of business names. So victorious. Still had jurisdiction for it. And I went and registered the name not knowing whether the website was free or anything. So $80 got the name, had the lunch, went back online afterwards and then secured the domain name but therefore attributes I try and mark myself against with every interaction every day. So yeah, the indica website which was belatedly updated last year by the wonderful Team of Creative Factory with Maggie roberts and her crew. You can see a bit of what I do there. But just my phone number's there, email addresses there. But please get in touch if you'd like to have a chat about whether I can help in that regard. But I would like to thank you to Jackie for making the time to speak with me today. But I love what you are doing and I feel very, very privileged to be the second like to be on the podcast.

Thank you. Thank you again and thanks so much for your time this morning. Lucky you are an early bird. But you look after yourself and look forward to seeing you soon, Jackie, thank you. Thank you. Alright. Initial reaction. Yeah. Look, I one of the big things that stood out for me is how he well I guess his path led him to where it was, it was, it has led him to but there was not really a roadmap that was planned right? It's sort of there was sort of incidents and situations of him being in the right place, right time opportunity, speaking to people that led him to where he is. And it got me thinking that you know, we spend so much time planning that sometimes it's so nice to surrender and and look look at that situation that he then it was a classic example that if you actually do just surrender to some things that are coming your way, then you know, your life can end up probably better than what you thought it was going to be. Yeah, I do think he was probably only looking at one step ahead quite often or he was just looking at how to develop particular skills in himself and the opportunities opened up which were really interesting.

And I loved that he was so focused on creating diversity in his work and really building really consciously building some of those skills that he knew that he will probably a bit harsh on himself to be honest, wasn't as confident that he had but probably innately did in a way, you know. Yeah. And especially at that time, right when he was doing it, it was a different time to where we are now. Like even now to talk about diversity and get it in isn't easy. I mean just yesterday, I don't know if you saw but band aids have come up in different shades now. It's crazy, right? It's taken how long to do that. Like they've got a range of skin color, like from Light Brown all the way to almost black. Yeah, that's pretty cool. But I guess for him to be thinking about that in what it was the 80s, wasn't it really for him? I wouldn't have been easy. No, that's true, that's true. It would have been at the Y in early 2000s. So and yet he is also a big supporter of females as well and it's another guest who really talks about how important a mentor is.

And he talked about that he probably should have consciously searched for multiple mentors from different other than from in your employee. Yeah. Earlier and he takes a lot of people under his wing, I don't know how he has time. He did say he doesn't sleep well. Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. And I think you know even not only just the mental aspect, but when he said that he got poached by the client, you know, when he was working in the accountancy firm as well, you know that I think that learning curve, it would have been so scary, but you know, he had that experience to do it and the bravery and courage to do it and I think that's probably helped him along his career more than he realizes too. Mm Actually, I do think that he is braver than he gives himself credit for because I was almost trying to dig for that at the start of the interview because even though he felt shy and anxious, he still took the steps and he put it down to external responsibility and duty.

But I think it also comes back to comes back to that he knew he knew he could do it like really? And I think that he is probably brave in terms of having difficult conversations that other people don't. I think that he's probably really good at approaching difficult conversations because as you said again, when he worked for that client and then it was sort of coming to a natural end, He didn't burn that bridge. He was able to have that difficult conversation and retain that relationship. Yeah, he's a collector of relationships, you know, he's collected relationships all the way back from university. So I think that is a superpower. It is and that's, that's the essence of eq really isn't it is building those relationships once you have the self awareness about who you are and what other people need and want. Um so he's really demonstrated that you're right and the fact that what he was saying, he went to stay at his friend's house and his friend was from uni, right, when, when they went to uni together, so yeah, that's beautiful, but look, I think that that whole important thing of a mentor is is so important, like even now after our stages of our careers, we think we sometimes forget, don't we, that we also probably need that because it's not about age or where you are in your career, it's more about, I think as you grow in your business, it demands a different version of you, as you know, as you're growing, you don't know what else you need unless you speak to other people or how you need to be in that aspect.

Um hmm absolutely, I almost feel the opposite actually, I feel like because there's so much personal growth that I need right now and I'm moving more and more into things that are unfamiliar with for me, you know, with really getting legally wise women off the ground, I am relying on multiple sources for advice and mentorship and it's almost like and I have to stop myself sometimes, like I'm searching for the silver bullet, like it's the perfect mentor that has all the answers for me at the moment, no one person does have everything and everyone has great ideas and of course that's the way it is, Yeah, yeah, and that's why you need, you need multiple, right? Multiple different mentors or people that you can, you know, seek that expertise and advice from, yep, yep, true, true. I think that the other thing that stands out from that as well, like with so many of our guests is resilience too, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. So just the ability to keep putting one step in front, one ft in front of the other, because he was talking about a couple of crucial points, particularly when he was talking about being a young father in his mid thirties and at that crucial point where he's at, at the point to do some advancement in his career and yet he is Feeding Children at 2:00 AM the morning and just exhausted. Yeah, absolutely. I think that resilience, peter's key and it's funny, you're right, I think everyone we've interviewed on our podcast has that running through them and I don't know, maybe it is that sort of missing link from having that IQ, but leveraging more of your EQ at the same time as it does take a bit of courage and resilience to do that? Um it doesn't come naturally to everyone, but it is something that you have to work. Yeah. Where do you think resilient? Because I, I quite often don't like the word resilience because I think it's been used poorly in some context, but where do you think, what are the elements of resilience from an EQ perspective.

Yeah, interesting question for me resilience or whatever word you want to use Grant whatever you want to call it. I think for me it's a case of, you know, when you are down for whatever reason, at that moment in time, emotionally, physically, mentally whatever. Then actually pause before you get back up. So everyone focuses on resilience and just bounce back, bounce back, bounce back. And I think it's the opposite. I think actually if you're down there, there's a reason you're there and you need to look at what it is that you're feeling and going through before you bounce back up. So it's almost the the pause or the rest before the bounce. Mm hmm. Because so many people do force themselves to bounce back because they believe there has to be resilient, right? I've done it. I've gone, oh my God, if I had a break or wanting to pause, it's like, oh my God, I need to just quickly get back into it. We're just conditioned that way. Yeah. But you know, it feels uncomfortable and messy, doesn't it? To just actually sit there for a while. It does. But when we do sit there for a while, that's where the gold is. Mm hmm. Mhm. Yeah. When you started saying that I remember that we have spoken about the bounce back before.

I think it's on reflection. It's a poor use of the word resilience when there is no bounce back at all. So it's just like you keep going without the bounce. And I don't think that is resilience. I think that that is being ground into the ground into the ground. Yeah. And I think the other key piece just talking about ground is about grounding. So when you are feeling non resilient and you're feeling all over the shop and you're feeling tired, it's a case of grounding yourself and go you know what I am where I am at the moment we're gonna ground myself so that I can get back up again with the strength. Mm hmm. And you know you imagine it enlightening it to the roots of the trees, right? That you do have those routes. You do have all of that within you. You got to remember that you have it. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm. Yeah, I love that. He spoke about a fatherhood which is something that Cat spoke about last week as well. I think that I think I have this assumption that you know career focused men don't really think about the other aspects of their life and maybe 20 years ago they didn't.

But it's certainly something that both of them have willingly spoken about which is really cool. Mm hmm. It is changing. I remember you know when Julia was born my dad was saying, oh my God, I just missed out on so much when you know you were born and they're trying to make up for it when we have kids. But I think you're right people that are waking up a lot earlier than when their Children have Children to go. You know what I need to be more present. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. The other fascinating thing about matt as well is how he has built his networks. He has invited me to be to come along and be part of this networking group that he nurtures and he calls it roses and thorn because it's really just he's collecting all these incredible women. So And across a diverse age group as well. Like he's got a whole lot of women that are really advanced in their career up in their fifties and sixties. And he's got a whole lot of uni students and all the way in between. Amazing. Yeah. And he brings us together through Covid it was all virtual.

But he also has some evening and morning breakfast events that he runs his two oldest Children who are in union now. Our girls. I don't know. It's just fascinating that he really has built this group and it's a really safe, comfortable, really empowering, respectful and high performers. My God, there's some incredible people. Mm hmm. Have you been here or they haven't been. Yeah. I've been on quite a few of the virtual ones. And I did one by christmas we were able to have like a dinner one. So yes, Really interesting collection of people. And again, it's this superpower where he has some form of relationship with every one of these women and there's you know, upwards of 100 And he remembers something specific about every one of them remembers quite often far more detailed sort of about their career path and and all of that and there and who they should be connected with.

That's incredible. You know what you have to be a certain type of person to do that. Right? And isn't it funny though? Like he said it a lot in an interview that he was always a shy person. He was shy, he was shy. But you know, the fact that he's now created this that's huge. That's rather than represent someone who's shy. So he's either worked on it or he probably wasn't a shy before. That's right. Because he remembers details of people. I do think maybe it's not so much shy as just to be able to connect with people just having that something slightly deeper than what is traditionally a fairly surface level. Mm hmm. Association. So, I think that that there's that aspect. But yeah, when people are able to do that and you know, they're super networkers. It's just such a skill that I admire. It's something that I'm certainly meeting because I am, you know, it's never at the forefront of my mind about who else I can connect someone to to help.

It's always more about is there something that I can do. And it's funny because sometimes what I can do is just connect them with the person they need, but it's not something that I automatically think, yeah, but I think you've done it inadvertently by the people that we've interviewed on here. Like I've met amazing people from here, you know, and connected with offline as well. I think you probably do it without realizing maybe just in a different roundabout sort of way. Exactly. But the outcome is the same way, like you're introducing people to other people, but you know what, I think you're right. I think it's a skill that you either have or you don't, like, I've got a friend of mine, you know, she's she's such a good, she's a lawyer too, and she's such a good networker. But even in her personal life, so, you know, we were going out classic example, going out for dinner on the weekend, sunday night, really casual And we met at seven and she was at 8:00, she's like, oh yeah, by the way, I've invited three other people that I think you you'd love to meet and they're just coming to join us for dinner. Never met them before. And we had such a good night.

It was just like beautiful and These three amazing people from extremely different backgrounds and we had a board till like 11:00 on a school night, you know, it's really good, but she does that all the time. She's just got that skill to go if I'm really in that person's gonna invite that and she does it so effortlessly. Yeah. It made me think of something that you said when you separated initially and you were talking about certain people falling away in your life. But new people coming in, you're getting this steady flow then of interesting new people. It is exactly what's happened because it's exactly that isn't it, that the people are in your life for a reason and for a period of time only because they've helped you through something or they've taught you something then that journey sort of and it doesn't have to end in a bad way, which it hasn't in my case, but it just means, you know, new chapters are opening and that's pretty awesome. Right? And you're becoming the incredible shrinking woman now too with all the working workout you're doing that's the plan.

Well they say after a divorce, it's either a brand new haircut color or body shape change. Right? So maybe mine will be both will see. And the tat. Oh yeah. All right. Well, what are you up to on the other side of easter? Well, I'm just going to have easter all of actually, I haven't got for easter weekend. She's going up to camera with him and some family. So I'm actually going to have like four days to myself over easter, which is really a prayer. I'm like a little bit excited by that to be honest. Yes, couple of big walks in and outside of that. I'm actually just going to have some downtime, like not even think about work. So that's going to be the plan and a bit of sleep probably two, which will be really cool. Yeah, that's right because you're burning the candle at both ends at the moment. I am. Have you got any speaking gigs coming up? No, not speaking gigs, but I'm in the process of getting set up a membership site and I've partnered up with a guy, I'll have to introduce him to you bet on the podcast actually, by way of an interview is phenomenal.

His name is Elijah and he's in SAN Diego and his leadership coach that specializes in EQ for millennials and yeah, we just connected on linkedin and we're actually partnering up to build this membership together. So, Amazing guys. So yeah, so we're going to be working on that and putting that together. So we've got a couple of strategy sessions for the rest of the week to build, build that. And actually funny enough, it's going to be one of our supporters and people are going to help us actually put that together. Amazing what a great project. Great to collaborate it is. That's right. I think you said something about that briefly when it was an initial idea because you were going to put in a network, weren't you? That's right, yeah, we are. So that's all happening because we want to launch that in july. So it's just going to be a bit of work between now and then on that, which is great. Which is good. It gives me, You know, a bit of a focus to get ready now. I've been meaning to do that for like 12 months. That's right. Well you've had so much change though over the last 12 months that it sounds like it's the perfect time because everything else is ready to lead up for that now.

Exactly. What about your week? Yeah. Well, yeah, the four days over easter, I'll have a break as well. We're going to go fishing so I'm not going to be sitting in front of the computer. Good. Yeah, so that'll be really good. And yeah, just the nature of the business at the moment and having to advertise for another person. It's because you know, all of us are booked out for two or three weeks in advance. And so I'm being really conscious of trying to block out one or two hours a day to actually have available for conversations that will progress legally wise women as well because it's such a focus just keeping TB a law and servicing everything that's happening there. But yeah, next week after easter I have a session with my local mp to start getting some connections with some not for profit gender diversity groups to start, you know, getting referrals for legally wise women. So beautiful. Excellent. Sounds great.

Yes, So it's all happening I guess, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. We would love to hear from people. Obviously we say it every week, please comment on I. Q meets eq dot com dot au on any of the podcast interviews that you I want to ask us more about. Or if you want a personal connection, we do put everyone's links on that page and show notes as well so you can find them direct. But yeah, if you want to continue the conversation, linkedin is another good place to do it or email us direct us. Where do they get a hold of you? Yeah, I'm an eq dot academy. I love that. Yeah. And I'm Jacki at legally Wise Women dot com dot au. So yeah, I look forward to chatting with everyone and look forward to talking to you again. Thank you, Jackie. You have a good week you to see you. Hi