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Jamie O'Donnell of the Life Livers Academy

by Shaun Kober
October 8th 2020

I was interviewed by Jamie about 6 months ago, as the world was going into lock-down due to the current worldwide pandemic. That episode was re-broadcast in my previous episode.

In today&a... More

Yo what is up guys? Welcome to today's episode of the live train perform podcast. I'm your host, Sean Cobra and joining me today is my man, Jamie O'donnell of the life livers academy, he is an entrepreneur, a performance coach and online business strategic and a podcaster. Jamie, welcome to the show mate. Thanks for having me man, looking forward to having a chat mate for those listening at home. I was a guest on Jamie's podcast a few months ago. When was that started lockdown? Like March april so I re broadcast that on monday. This episode will be dropping on thursday. I'm excited to switch roles with Jamie and dive into the weeds on everything that he's gone through the life that he's built for himself and the adversity that he's faced. Maybe what I want to start with is the Swiss eight principles. I'm an ambassador for suicide and I'm a big believer in what they're doing is a proactive mental health program designed to allow people to structure in and schedule the most important things in their life.

And the eight pillars of health and wellness are sleep, nutrition, time management, discipline, fitness, personal growth, mindfulness and minimalism for you. Maybe which one of those principles are most important for you right now and I'm sure there's been different times of your life where those principles are in different orders and you do have different priorities. But let's discuss some of those principles and when they have applied for you at certain times of your life. Yeah, cool man, I mean it's tricky because all of those obviously play such an important part, but I think there's one that's sort of for me anyway, I feel like an over arch is all the other ones and that's personal growth. Um and I just think without personal growth, you know, you only go as far as you go and um you you only reach the level whether it's in your health and fitness, whether it's in your career, whether it's, you know, in your relationships, you're only going to go and get to the level that you're willing to go to. And so I just feel like for me, regardless of what it is and what stage in my life, there's an overarching thing there that it's always going to come back to personal growth for me.

Yeah, I love it man. What some of the things that you're using right now to promote your own personal growth? I think for me, I mean like to be totally honest with you, the pandemic has been one of the best opportunities for personal growth that we could have had. Obviously it wasn't chosen, it was put upon us, but it's in times like that that you you have a choice man and you can either sort of get better or you can get better and um I think it's applied a lot of pressure to people and I'm like I'm not, I don't want to glamorize the situation and say that it's awesome because it's not, but for me personally I have grown through that period, like I was very intentional about how I showed up from when it first dropped, like I've got business is my partner and I run a business together, I run my own business as well, and within my business, I look after other people's businesses, so I had quite a lot of responsibility on my shoulders through that time, and you know, strategy only gets you so far, man, it's it's about your character and how you show up as a person and how intentional you are and how you face adversity, and how you overcome challenges, whether you welcome challenge or whether you shy away from it, and so I feel like in the last three months unintentionally, I've been put through probably a pretty rapid period of personal growth and I'm sure that there's many other people out there who um like yourself, who are feeling the same, so um I think if I was to answer a question around that, like for me it's been about being intentional, bro, I think that's probably been the biggest thing I find that with personal growth, uh there's a million courses out there, there's all sorts of different topics that people talk about, but at the end of the day, man, it comes down to being intentional about how you show up and I think whether it's to do with health and fitness, whether it's to do with business, whether it's to do with relationships, whether it's to do with your goals, actually taking the time to be super, super intentional about who you need to be in the moment, who you need to be in, your interactions, who you need to be to get the outcomes that you want ultimately dictates, you know, whether you get there or not, and also in that process you have to show up as another person to get the outcomes that you want and so, um yeah, I feel like I feel like I've had a lot of growth over the last the last couple of months and um I think being intentional for me is something that really stands out incredible answer there, there were so many things that came up then when I was like, I was about to jump in, jump in, jump in, but I thought I'd let you get continue with the roll, So let's go back and touch on a couple of those things.

So you spoke about being intentional a number of times there, how do you understand what your intentions are and then how do you create habits? Um to work towards what those intentions are. Do you do any goal setting or um we spoke a lot about in your interview of me on your episode on your podcast and I spoke a lot about understanding what your values are and being value driven. Is that something that you do, is that something that you sit down and write out or how does that, how does that process work for you? Yeah man, really good question. That to be honest, me, like when it comes to goal setting, I've been, you know, I've been through a whole bunch of different phases when it comes to goal setting, but the one that's always stood out for me that's had the biggest impact on me is I did a high performance training with Brendan bashar a number of years ago, um if anyone who's listening who's not familiar with Brendan bashar, I highly recommend that you check out his work is the number one high performance coach on the planet. He's done some of the biggest studies into human, high performance that have ever been conducted.

So his stuff is based on neuroscience, it's not fluffy, it's like, this is what we have worked out actually works and raises your level of performance. Uh One of the frameworks that I remember, which has always stuck with me, which is something that I really try and be quite disciplined on is a theory called primary aspiration theory and it's about just basically when you think about goal setting, you could type into Youtube now how to set goals and you get 1000 different ways to set goals and it's like, you know, you need to have a y and you need to, they need to be smart goals, they need to be measurable, They need, you know, all that type of stuff and what you'll find is that for the majority of the time we're actually just setting to do list goals. So they like things to tick off a list and in order to take those things off a list in order to actually make progress and actually in order to actually get somewhere with your ambitions, it comes back to being intentional and it comes back to thinking about like, how you're being, how you're interacting and you know, how you're growing. And so that's sort of the three categories that I always go back to and to give you an example that I hop on this podcast with you today.

Now I can hop on the podcast And be like, my to do list goal today is to do the podcast with Sean. But before I hopped on here, like 10 minutes before we jumped on, I sat down at the White Board over here and I literally, like wrote down the type of person that I need to be in order to show up to add the most value to you and to your audience and to do myself justice. And there's certain things like I need to be clear and concise, like, I need to be confident, uh and I need to act with certainty and there's just a few little things like that and I'm like, that's the sort of person that I need to show up, I need to be enthusiastic, you know, like, I need to bring some energy and some passion to this interview um and so little things like that for me when it comes to goal setting, I think that rather than setting to do list goals, we should every day, probably focus more on how we're showing up and and that's how you're being the level of energy that you're generating, the feelings that you want to generate, because a lot of the time I think we drift through the day bro, and you'll know this more than more than most, but like you don't have energy and you don't have feelings like you generate those, they don't just happen to you.

And so like if I want to be confident in this interview, I can just choose to show up and be clear and concise and confident like that, that is a choice, and as you start to do that, you start to embody that and you start to feel that. And so first thing is like on a daily basis, like how are you wanting to feel, are you wanting to walk around with your head down and like sluggish, because if you if you allow yourself to feel that you're going to feel that, but you can generate your own energy and your own level of feelings joy, happiness and all that stuff, and I'm not saying that you can control it all the time. Sometimes there's external circumstances that come into play, but for the majority you are in control of that with your interactions man, like every single day, you know, you're a coach, you're very intentional about the way that you show up for your clients and for people, you're very intentional as a person in general. And so I think the second category that people can really benefit from is like how intentional are you being in your interactions and you're not going to be the same person to everyone. Like the way that I show up for my partner, Steph is gonna be different for the way I show up to you, the way I show up for my clients and so sometimes when I hop on a client call or something, like I need to be a bit of a bit of a harder, it's like I need to be the person who's holding someone accountable, I need to say the things that no one else will say to them.

And so for me to do that in a good way, I need to have set goals around how I'm going to interact in that moment beforehand. So for me man goal setting is more about that. Um don't get me wrong, you need to have a vision and you need to have your to do list goals, but I think the missing piece of the puzzle most of the time is actually having those primary aspirations in place and being really intentional about how you're showing up and then the second thing is systems and rather than focusing on the goal is the system to achieve the goal. And um you're probably familiar with James clear, but he's got a fantastic book around goals and habits. And the one thing that I took away from that, that just makes total sense to me that I've seen the best results from this rather than focusing on the goal is focusing on the system, mate. That was an incredible answer, man. And again, every time you speak, there's my colleagues are ticking and I'm like, I want to go deeper. I want to go deeper. I want to go. Um I want to go back to what you said earlier about having the white board in front of you and you've written down a few things that you want to bring to this interview. Now let's discuss that for a moment because I'm very, you know me, I'm very structured.

I've got um, you know, diaries journals, I've got white boards in front of me. Like I've got note pads where I've jotted down my vision what I want to achieve. I've got different phases of my business, etcetera, etcetera. How powerful is it for you to actually put things down in writing and get things on paper on a white board or something like that, yep, really powerful man. Um I'm probably naturally not like you, like I'm quite unstructured and I, I struggled to be disciplined with that type of stuff. Like if I'm being completely honest with you, it's something that I try and I try and enforce that and I've got rituals like going to the gym and stuff like that that I never miss, but I'm not a structured person naturally. Uh and for me, having stuff written down, um is absolutely crucial. I'm also like a real, um for me, I like writing, like I've got paper and whiteboards and stuff everywhere, man. And uh like I've tried using apps and stuff like that to keep goals and whatever, but there's something about writing it down on a piece of paper for me.

Uh but yeah, to answer your question totally, man, I, I think getting it out of, you hear a seeing it, the more you see it, the more that you can remind yourself and set triggers to interact in the way that you need to interact. And a lot of the time a goal gets written down and then shut in a book and the book doesn't get open for six months, you know, And so it's kind of pointless writing it down. I think having something written down where you see it. Um I used actually, probably the thing I use the most is the screensaver on my phone. Um, and I'll actually write the goals on canvas and save it as a photo as, and then I'll just chuck it on my lock screen in my home screen and every time, how many times a day do you open your phone? Probably like 100 times if you're anything like me and uh you know, like I see that I see those things I need to be working towards quite regularly. Yeah, I think that's the important thing of it is being able to see that, which then reminds you, and that's the thing for me writing down goals, it gets it out of your head and it makes it a little bit more real. And once you've written it down then you can start going, all right. Is this something that I want to chase up? And then you start looking at your schedule, you have a look at it if that aligns with what your underlying values are and what your vision is and if it aligns with the person that you want to become and then you start, you know, putting that into your schedule and it might be a project that might be a three phase project or something like that and it's like right phase one, I need to do X, y Z.

That means every day, I need to, You know, dedicate 20 minutes, 30 minutes an hour to working on this project. And I think that's very important, man. Um now I want to go back, there's, there's a couple of things that you said there before as well. Sorry, do you want to add something to that. Yeah, I was just gonna say one thing, I actually interviewed a guy the other day mike Allsop who he is an amazing dude. Like he's summited Everest Unguided. He ran seven marathons in seven days, seven continents. Uh you know like he's just one of those guys who's out there achieving big things. And like one of the questions I proposed to him was around goal setting, and I said like how do you set goals and you seem to achieve really big staff? How do you not get paralyzed by setting such big goals? And he was like, oh, forget about the goal, it's about taking the first step. He said the key words momentum. And I was like, yeah, that's such good advice because So often, you know, whether it's let's take a weight loss journey for example, you set a goal of 30 kg. It doesn't matter how many times you see that if you don't really believe it and if you're not feeling like you're actually making momentum towards it. So breaking that stuff down into like steps. So he said, when he ran the seven marathon, seven continents seven days, He'd never ever even run like 5K.

Like he wasn't a runner. So one of the goals that he set for himself was simply to start researching running on YouTube. That was a goal where he said, and then when he started researching running on YouTube, then it was like to run a couple of K. So he got out, ran a couple of K. And he was like, once you take the first step in that goal process, like the momentum carries you forward. And then it's about taking off the small goals. I thought that was really useful to add, Yeah, excellent. Thank you for adding that. Um and that brings up another point for me as well. What? And it ties in what you said earlier about focusing on the systems and focusing on the process is mm I think that is so incredibly important because you know, if you could give people a weight loss pill, let's take that person who wants to lose 30 kg. If you gave that personal weight loss pill and they woke up tomorrow and they lost that 30 kg, would they be able to sustain it? No, they fucking wouldn't because they haven't learned those lessons along the way. They haven't learned, you know how much energy is on a plate or food. They don't understand macronutrients. They don't understand energy balance.

They haven't learned those lessons along the way, man. And I think it's the journey that is so fucking important. There's been a lot of research where people have won the lottery and you look at most people who buy lottery tickets, they're typically from lower socioeconomic classes and they win the lottery, they get all this money. And then within a couple of years they're broke because they didn't learn those lessons, they didn't understand how to invest that money, they didn't understand how to save that money or budget or anything like that. So I think it's very important to understand that the process is where the lessons are learned, that's where you figure out what works for you and what doesn't work for you, Anything to add to that bro. No just 100% agree with that man. I think it's something like 96% of people who win the lottery end up bankrupt. So it's the same in businessman. Like I think a lot of the time nowadays with Instagram social media people were just um seeing the finish line and it's about who can get there the quickest and the reality is like even with business or with fitness or whatever until you build the skill set and the mindset it just doesn't matter and that there's no shortcuts on that stuff so exactly what you said about the person trying to lose the way, it's like how many people get gastric bypass is get the stomach state board and then end up just learning back out like five years later because there was no habitual change and it's the same in business, like It's the same thing.

People trying to run tactics and Facebook ads and all this type of stuff to get to the end but they haven't actually built the foundation to be able to maintain it long term, 100% agreement systems are super important. Um and yeah I mean like I said I think rather than me rapping on about it if anyone wants a resource around that you've probably read that book. But um James Clears book is really worthwhile. Name please. Atomic habits. Yeah it's Atomic habits isn't it? Yeah I've read I don't ask because like I got your atomic habits people um I haven't read that one I've bought it but I haven't read it yet so it has come recommended numerous times to me so that's why I've got it but I'll get to that soon. You'll really enjoy that book man. Like it's um it's so practical. I think a lot of those books get a bit fluffy, it's so practical. Again, James Clear is a guy who's just done you know he spent his life researching what it actually takes to to attain and achieve goals and um to ingrain new habits man and like he's really a guru in that space and it's super simplistic and it's very easy to implement.

Uh and it's one of my probably most highly recommended reads. Yeah nice, nice. I'm actually reading start with wine right now by Simon Sinek, have you read that one? I haven't but I've watched a lot of Simon's stuff and yeah that'll be a great book as well. Yeah yeah great resource of people, its you know exactly what we're talking about here anytime you want to do something you need to start with. Why? Because most people will tell you what they do and they tell you how they're going to do it, but they don't have a clear mission statement, they don't have a clear vision. So you know you and I have a very clear understanding of why we're doing things. If I ask you and let's dive into this now, because you are one of the top ranked podcast on apple podcasts in the self help category in new Zealand with the life livers academy and you and I basically started this podcast journey around about the same time and you said it before when you said, hey, this is an opportunity for personal growth and I was exactly the same man, I've been thinking about launching a podcast for around about a year now. Um and I was like right, this is the time to do it, luckily enough, I was in Australia, had a six week leave right before lockdown and I bought everything that I needed in Australia with the intention to come back to Thailand doing my podcast course, learn along the way and once I finish the course and start putting out content lockdown happened, I was like radio, let's kick this off, let's figure this sh it out as I go and you've been going through basically the same process man and it's incredible what you've achieved to be able to climb to the top of the rankings in new Zealand?

Like can you talk to me about the life livers academy, like what's the deal behind that? Why did you start that podcast? Yeah, totally man personal growth, you know, like I it's been a fascinating area that I've been fascinated in for a long time. It's like performance and personal growth but it's not particularly in industry, I like, I feel like there's a lot of gurus who are probably not overly authentic in the way that they talk about personal growth and personal development and I actually feel like the spaces in some respects, a bit like the fitness space where it's like on face value, it's just a bit vain and um the idea with, I, I wanted to do the podcast for a long time. Um Number one on a personal level I wanted to connect with these people and the conversation that I wanted to have number two man, I'm very driven to add value to people like that. I the most fulfilling thing I think in my life, I mean don't get me wrong money and everything is motivating, but the best feeling that you can get is when you know that you've had a value to someone else's life that you help them move forward. Uh and I have been a big advocate of podcasts and a big listener of podcasts over the years and they've added immense value to my life, the good ones and the good conversations and some of those, some of those things where I've plugged the podcast into my ears, you know, some of those things have stayed with me for years and really helped me and I don't even know the person, but they added a lot of value to my life and so I want I wanted to have those conversations for myself, but I genuinely believe that by talking to people who are out there who have actually walked the path um rather than just spoken on a stage or something, you know, like people who have, like yourself, you know, you've been in war zones in that man, like the lessons that come out of that uh so much more powerful than someone who's just done a course in coaching.

Yeah, the person who's built a seven figure business, you know, there's been adversity along the way, you can guarantee it, there's none of that stuff comes easy and I just feel like by tapping into people who have actually walked the path and sharing those experiences, I think there's a lot of value in that for other people. Um and so that's the reason behind the podcast man and I think there's key things like, you know, you talked about the principles with Swiss say that they are built on and similar principles, you know, like um you know, wealth and health and personal growth and some of those key categories that I wanted to tap into uh and I really have a desire to add value to people in those areas because I think the best thing that you can do is, you know, help people um unlock their potential and get the best out of themselves, but I'm I'm not an expert in all of those topics and I can't personally go and you know, answer all these questions that I have the answers to that other people want answers to. And so I thought I'd connect with people who have lived and walked uh in those lands and try and get some of the some of the best people to share their best bits of advice.

Um so yeah, that's the podcast man and I'm really enjoying it like you, it's been um you know, I just started it during lockdown and started having the conversations and I have been learning along the way, but yeah, I've got, it's been very rewarding so far. Yeah, also make, that's so good to hear. Um let's go back and talk about something you spoke about earlier again every time, every time you speak, it's bringing up so many questions for me. Um you spoke about opportunity earlier uh and saying this lockdown period pandemic et cetera was an opportunity for you to focus on your own personal growth and development and dude, I was exactly the same, you know, um people were saying how's your life change during the pandemic and I was like, it hasn't really because I do the things that I enjoy that brings me fulfillment and contentment every single day, you know, I'm creating content for my podcast, I'm creating content for my Youtube channels, I'm still getting some training in now, I'm just recording them and putting them on Youtube so people can follow these workouts at home, you know, I'm still doing some study and all this type of stuff um and I think that's an important distinction and that is part of mindset and last time we spoke, you were on the opposite sides of the microphones and I spoke about mindset and I'm, I'm assuming you finish reading that book now and it talks about the difference between a growth mindset and fixed mindset and I think that ties in line with what you said with opportunity, a growth mindset, look for opportunity of fixed mindset, looks at obligation and I think that's an important distinction is understanding where your mindset is.

So then you can figure out where you're at right now and then go, that's where I want to be over there. How do I get over there and you start making these small changes and taking these small processes and these small steps and putting them into place. Um now let's dive into what you've done throughout your life because you are an entrepreneur, you're a performance coach, you worked in the fitness industry for a number of years, um you've built businesses from the ground up, you've had businesses fail, you've been broke as fuck, you've had so many things going on. Um let's talk about your transition from, say, school life into basically the career path and trajectory that you talk, and if there was any pivotal moments along the way, that kind of shape the direction that you moved in. Yeah, man. Um I've done, I mean, I've done a range of different things that, like, I have jumped around and, like you say, at the core of it is probably the fitness industry has always been at the center. Um but a pivotal moment was just the first step out of school. I was planning to go to university and I was gonna do p and become a pe teacher.

I've always been very passionate about sport, and um that was the plan. And then we actually went on a cricket two and played in Melbourne and Sydney when I was about 17 and men, two mates really enjoyed Melbourne, and so when we got back was probably a month left of last year of high school, and I said, uh look at this, I'm not going to uni and let's all booked tickets to Melbourne and go and have a year in Melbourne. And so we booked to Melbourne and packed up a, you know, a small suitcase full of clothing, jumped on a plane and we just had an absolute blast, spent all our money and just basically got host for the first month and parties and lived in the Backpackers and had a great time and then got to like the end of the first month and was like, you know, a pretty naive kid and was like, whoa, I've got no money and I don't have a place to live and I'm in a foreign country and I haven't really thought this through. And I saw an ad in the paper that was for sales people and it said paid cash daily, blah blah blah. And so I was like paid cash daily, that's me, I need to bring these guys running them up.

Yeah, come in for an interview. I think I rocked in in shorts and sandals like real naive kiwi kid. Uh and it was like this flash as office and people in suits and stuff. I was like, you know, I've misread the situation here. And anyway, it was quite charismatic. I've always, you know, been able to connect with people pretty well and just went in and was very honest and had a yard and told them a situation that was hungry to make money and they said, cool, come back tomorrow and we'll we'll teach you about sales. I was like, cool, got there the next day thinking I got the sales job and so I put a shirt on and stuff and then we fucking started walking, jumped in a car and drive and started walking around these neighborhoods knocking on people's doors and I was like, what is going on here? Like I don't want, I don't want to do this and it was a door to door sales role man. And the guy I saw the guy that was teaching me, he made I think $300 in like a few hours that I was with him and he got to take it home that day and he was like derek and that you could do what I do and I was like I can do it better, so give me a crack tomorrow and um I turned up the next day and bro I didn't have a place to live.

My rent at the Backpackers had run out, like I had to pay it the next day and I didn't have even 100 $50 to pay the rent And so I was like he made $300 yesterday and so I went out and I got the highest sales that day for everyone in that company and made like four made like $400 and was like That bro that's what I would earn in a week as a kid back in New Zealand I was like Wow, I made $400 today, I can pay my rent and then just got that positive momentum into sales but without dragging on too long, the pivotal thing that changed the course of my life because what I learned, the lessons I learned from door to door sales Have been the most valuable lessons that I've ever learned. I had to knock on 150 doors a day, 140 of them told you to suck off a lot of them not very nicely and you, so I learned to deal with adversity. I learned to not care what people thought of me. I learned discipline and hard work. I learned that I watched people build teams and have success within that company and I learned that if you're determined enough you could do whatever you wanted to do.

I learned that um, importance of building a team and managing people. I learned like leadership skills. I learned communication on like the deepest level because when you're knocking on people's doors man, you're dealing with everyone from grandmothers to gang members to drug dealers to the mother of three who is at home. And so like I learned to relate and get people to like me within like two or three seconds on their door in order to be successful. Uh, and all of those lessons particularly like, you know just the, the ability to control my mind and perform under pressure. Like having no money being overseas. Um, And you know, having days where you go out and you work your gas off in the pouring down rain and make $0 because it was commissioned only. Uh, and having that constant thing where like you had to pay your own way, there wasn't like a retainer that like just so many great lessons and that 18 toughened me the funk up and you know, and actually I hated it by the time I left there, I was so burned out by it.

Um, but everything else became easy. Like the next jobs that I went into, like when I got a job doing sales and like sales management and the gym was like, this is a piece of cake. People are walking in wanting to join the gym. It's warm people handing their wallets over as they walk in. I'm not having to work high. Yeah, like, oh hi, I've just come to look around the gym. I would like to join them like absolutely, you know, and then like just crushed it in gym sales Because I've been through a really adverse 12-18-month period knocking on people's doors and selling and having to having to get good fast um, in order to survive. And so that was a pivotal moment man. That's incredible man. And I love that reflection and looking back at all of those traits that you had to build and you had to, you know, develop on the fly and the biggest one for me is that ability to communicate and as you're going through that list, I was like communication man would have been so important there because you know, that's your first impression, you're knocking on the door, someone opens the door and like you've got a couple of seconds to make a good first impression, 100% and then like what I learned very quickly was that if I could do 10 sales a day, I'd make 300 bucks.

So I was like, okay, cool. And then I was like, But if I can train 10 people to make 10 sales a day, that's 100 sales, and if I get a commission of all that, I don't have to go out and do the sales and I was like, I'm going to get real good at teaching people and coaching people. And I had a fantastic guy there who's one of my good friends still, um he lives in Australia's names, rob Godfrey to and he was an unbelievable role model for me and um he taught me a lot of key skills and really pushed me and believed in me and like he changed the course of my life probably, you know, during that time and talking about communication skills, man, like I learned the communication skills, that was fantastic, but I also learned to grow people, I learned to mentor people, I learned to get the best out of people. I learned to get other people who wanted to quit in a completely different state where they wanted to walk out and like smash it. I learned to motivate and inspire people, like I really learned like the core skill set around coaching, same thing on the fly man, like you've got your taking people out to knock doors and you have to teach them to love it, it's quite, you know, and so the same thing again when I walked into the fitness industry is like there's a person who's overweight who's got like a real desire to lose weight and like trainers can't relate to that person.

I'm like man, I taught people to go and knock on fucking doors and like get the most out of people, I can get someone the best out of someone who wants to lose weight. And so that skill set just transitioned into fitness. Uh and yeah, I mean I was lucky enough to just to give you a little bit of a fast forward on the career stuff. Like I was lucky enough when I got back to new Zealand that there was a gym being built from the ground up, it was an empty warehouse I was walking past as a South African guy in there and he was like Um I started yearning to him and he was building a gym and I said do you need a sales manager? I was like 19 and he said well you know we need someone to do, sound like cool man, I'll come back tomorrow and see you like I'm your guy and like literally just sold him and remember him just being like, well I can't not give you a crash, he's like, well you told me so you're gonna sell others, right? I just had so much confidence, like I literally had developed so much confidence in myself because when you're out knocking doors bro and this is this is a really pivotal lesson, is like when you're out knocking doors and nothing is going your way, if you take that on board, like if you some days pissing our rain gone eight hours not made a sale, if you let that narrative control your head, there is no fucking way the next door is going to be a sale, it's just not, you take that energy to the next door and the person tells you to suck off and that becomes a downward spiral.

So no matter how bad things were, you had to pretend like the next door was going to be amazing and you had to completely convince yourself so I learned to control my mind something wicked and that every single piece of like adversity that they faced in my life, everything else that has always come back and I'm like okay cool, I can always look on the positive side of it, I can always get myself into a state where I can control my own thoughts and I yeah, I took that into the fitness industry and we built this gym and it was you know, 0 to 1000 members and um I was lucky enough that he took me under my wing again, he saw that I had a hunger and he taught me a lot of really valuable lessons and he was a great role model and mentor for me. And I remember him saying to me try everything once and if it doesn't work, don't do it again. And I was like, okay, Um, sweet. And, and so I just got all this experience at like 20 years old that I just wouldn't have had and I got to see the insides of growing a business without it being my own. Uh, and then we went on and yeah, there's another gym and done another gym since then and um, you know, and I guess that just kick started me into business and I've never been able to work for someone um, since then, because from door to door sales and that I just saw that if you put your head down, you know, you can really create your own path.

But all of those lessons from door to door sales are still the most valuable lessons that I've learned, Still the things that if I'm going good today, um carry me through and they are the lessons that have gotten me through the most tough times in my life as well. Amazing man, I want to touch on some of those tough times in your life in a moment. But um you've mentioned one thing a couple of times that I want to go back to and that is body language, you just spoke about it then and you spoke about it earlier in the podcast about body language act as if you know your your brain and your body are so interconnected. They ah providing each other with feedback all the time. And if you're walking along and your head's down, your body language is poor, that's going to put you in a poor mindset and vice versa. So I want to, I want to touch on that because when you interviewed me, you spoke about, you know, um adding some of these habits, these empowering habits into your day, every time you walk through a doorway you think about your posture, you lift your chest up, you stand tall, you stand proud.

Um let's talk about some of that for a moment, like where did you get this understanding from? And how have you related the interconnection between the mind and the body? Um to be honest, like I've studied it quite a bit, I'm interested in that side of things, but to be honest, going back to door to door salesman like you before you knock on the door, you take a big deep breath and you think about how you want to be perceived when they opened the door and if I was like, hi hi, I'm just here to try and sell you something like people like get the funk out as a gay man, here you go, you know, like real confident. Um and so I, I learned it then, but then I guess doing things like Brendan Bouchard high performance courses and stuff like that probably learned more there things like triggers like actually being really intentional about it. So like I said, you know, I think at the core of it for me, Mac, that stuff comes back to to build self belief. You have to do what you said, you're going to do, you have to keep the promises that you make to yourself. And if you do that, you build self confidence and self belief very quickly.

If you don't do that, you destroy it really quickly. And um you know, if you are someone who is constantly making promises to yourself about what you're going to do and and then you're constantly breaking them to yourself, it doesn't matter how many times you walk through the door with your shoulders back man, you don't believe anything that you say you've negotiated too hard with yourself, you've let yourself down too many times. And so you need to build momentum the other way, and that starts with small things, It starts with things like if you say you're gonna go for a run every day, then you put your shoes on and you go for a run every day and if you're going to eat healthy, you know, like you don't need to see these big audacious goals, but you need to start keeping small promises to yourself because that then creates momentum the right way and what happens when you do that is that you start to believe that you're the type of person that keeps promises to yourself, and you start to build your self confidence and in that you start to shift your identity towards being someone who has self esteem and who follows through and who does stuff. And I've been on both sides of that equation, man, I'm not saying like I've got that ship sorted, I've been useless many times in my life, I've let myself down, I quit on myself shiploads of times, I've made heaps promises to myself and let them down and I ended up in really poor state.

And um and it's through that that I've learned that actually the most important things when it comes to the things like self confidence is just doing what they said, what you said you were gonna do and keeping those small promises to yourself and being relentless with your commitment to yourself around that stuff, and that's something I'm still working on. Like I'm not saying that I've got that sort of I'm still working on that, but I think if there's one thing to take away around self confidence, it's that yeah, may I love that, that's a that's an excellent answer, man. And the same thing goes, you know, we don't really consider how we speak to ourselves. This is NLP neuro linguistic programming, how we speak to ourselves directly impact how we perform, how we react, how we perceive ourselves, what our self esteem is our confidence, et cetera, and people don't consider that, but think about it like this, everyone's got friends, Everyone who's listening at home has friends that says, yeah, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to do that and they never fucking do anything. So every time they say something, you just pay them off and you're like, well, I know they're not going to follow through on that.

And it's the same thing with ourselves, right? Like if we don't, if we don't trust and respect the person that's saying these things were going to pay them off. We're not going to believe that they're going to follow through on those things. It's exactly the same with our, with our own self talk. You know, if we're making these promises were saying we're going to be doing these things and then we don't fucking do them. Then we start losing trust and respect with ourselves. And that diminishes confidence. So it's about putting small practices in place and, you know, and doing things that you can do quite often to get people say, hey, let's go back to that person who wants to lose 30 kg. You know, they come to me as a trainer and I sit down with them say, hey, cool, what are your goals you can do this? All right, sweet. Like how committed are you to this goal? You know, and I'm looking to match their commitment levels to the also their expectations to their commitment levels. And most people go, yes, we when they're motivated, they're like I say, how many how many days a week can you train? You can train five days a week. All right, cool. For how long a couple of months? All right. And is that something you can do for the rest of your life?

Probably not. What can you do for the rest of your life? One day of the week? All right, cool. Let's start there. Yeah. And then you're you're building that momentum there. Is that one day commitment, right? If you can do that consistently for a month, then add something else. Yeah, it's about taking these small processes and and layering upon them and most people when they want to change something, they're motivated and they try and do everything at once, and motivation only gets you so far. And when you motivated, it's great. Like, use it while it's there. But be realistic because once that motivation runs out, life kicks you in the fucking nuts. Then, you know, if you can't maintain that um or those things that you said that you're going to do, then it shatters confidence And you go back to Square one. So, like you said, it's all about building that confidence within yourself and doing the things that you say you're going to do and setting realistic expectations, Is there anything that you'd like to add to that? I just think one thing on that, I mean first, firstly just on body language, I don't think people should under, I didn't really talk to the, to your question very well there, but body language is super important.

Like you can create physiological response by the way that you can pull your shoulders back, stand tall, like that makes you feel a certain way and so don't underestimate that. But that stuff's pretty simple. Like you can do a bit of research on body language and work out how to sort of trigger that. One thing that's really important man is and that I found very powerful is actually writing out like your identity. I don't know if you've ever done that or come across that before, but it's like you subconsciously build beliefs around your identity and who you are and if you're someone who's let yourself down a lot, you know, you put on your promises, you don't get to the gym, you eat food, you don't exercise whatever it is for you. But like if if you subconsciously build a set of beliefs and an identity around what you actually see and what you do and you totally 100% have the power to rewrite that identity and start living into it right now, as soon as you finish this podcast you can go and do it and so you can literally write out all of those traits that you don't like, like the things like letting yourself down being late um you know, being lazy, whatever it is, and you can write out the opposite of that and then just choose like to read that as many times a day as you need to read to start living into it right now And that's one of the most powerful exercises that you can ever do for yourself.

We used in our health and fitness coaching a lot because people set the, you know, like 90% of the time in the health and fitness space. People were like, Oh We'll get you to set a 12 week goal of how much you're gonna lose and then break it down into weeks and then we'll just measure that and yeah, that's that's goal setting and it's like if you don't get that person to identify what their current identity is. Like. If you've been overweight bro for 10 years, you have the identity of a fat person. You, you, the way you interact in social situations as you probably make jokes about yourself, you probably refer to yourself as the person who eats lots and like to beer and you probably joke about your situation a lot to ease that situation. So every single thing that you do on a daily basis, whether it's at work in your family life, whatever refers back to that subconscious identity that you have, which is someone who's carrying extra weight and if you want to shift that weight, you can't just do the, the nutrition and the training. That's why people fall off the wagon and only do a couple of weeks. It's like you have to shift the identity of who you are.

So even if you're not there yet you can start thinking like, okay, how does it fit? So I'm going to walk into this room, how would it fit healthy confident person? Walk into this room and then walking like that. You can go right when I go out for lunch with my whole group of mates, like if I'm going to be fit healthy and confident person, how does that person order and when they can get to the counter to order their food? Do they, are they embarrassed that they got a healthy meal or are they proud of the fact that they've got a healthy meal and you can start sucking, identifying all these key traits and write them out on a piece of paper and then just sucking, hold yourself accountable to living into those right now man, and it's the most powerful thing that you can possibly do, whether it's your stepping into business, whether it's that you're stepping into a weight loss transformation, whether it's stepping into podcasting? Like you and I just have, there's a gap between where you are and we want to get to and that gap is a set of beliefs and an identity and you can fucking write that out and change it. Yeah, I love that man. And again, let's tie that back into what we said earlier about the processes and the systems, because that's what you used to get from Point A to point B.

But one you need to figure out where you're at right now. And that takes having a fucking honest conversation with the person in the mirror and saying, right, this is what this is what I'm proud of myself for, and this is what I need to work on. I need to fix, I need to improve so that I can start pushing towards being the person that I want to be. And then having a look at where point B is, there's there's my end state, that's where I want to be now. I need to act as if act as if is I'm already doing those things. That person B is now the process and the systems is the road map that takes you there. Did you want to add anything to that mate? I'm just going to say, Yeah, I'm just gonna say just being honest with yourself, man, it's the most underrated thing. It's the fucking hardest scariest thing to do because a lot of the time you don't want to know the answer and and the people around you often don't hold you to a high enough level of honesty with yourself either because we are very um what's the word?

We're like, we're quite fragile in the sense that, like, we've built a society that doesn't necessarily tell the truth. Like, if I asked you, you're probably a bit different. But if I ask the average person um for feedback on a podcast episode that I didn't think was very good, most people would say, oh man, I really enjoyed it. And I'm like, and someone like the ability to be honest with people and honest with yourself is a game changer. And again, I'm not saying that I'm someone who does that all the time. Like, it's a constant work in progress. I'm trying to be more honest with myself and I'm trying to be more honest with the people around me because feedback is so fucking important. But I think just on what you were saying, they're like, the reason I lit up is like that just all that stuff just comes back to being honest. You can look at yourself and your identity right now, and you can bullshit it and you're not gonna get the outcome. You're not going to make the change because you haven't been honest about your start point. And honestly this is I truly believe that this is where ego sucks people up and gets in the way. And if you have an ego that allows you to believe that you're further ahead and further down the path than what you are, You can never take the right action because you're taking an action from somewhere that you're not, and you're trying to make a start point, that's not you are if you are pretending that you're wealthy, when you're not, you're going to take moves and actions that the person who you're pretending to be would do and and what you might actually need to do is just ground yourself enough to take the right action for you in that moment.

And so you need to shift your identity forward and like I say, show up, like that person needs to show up, but sometimes ego can suck you up where you start tricking yourself into believing that you're somewhere that you're not and and that can also get you in trouble, and I think it's just a key thing to point out, because I've seen it a lot, I've done it with myself. And one thing I remember is when I was absolutely, my businesses have sucked up, absolutely broke his fuck. And I, and someone asked someone obviously knew this situation and they asked me, would you like to come around and do some work? I've got like a few days work, I'll pay you cash and um you know, you just need to shovel some shelves and like help me with landscaping and I was like in my head, I was like, fuck you, I'm not sucking landscaper, and then I like, actually just got my ego out of the way, and I was like, hang on a minute actually you've got nothing going on right now and you need to be fucking honest with yourself and humble enough to go and start and shovel that can drive away as long as you need to get some money so that you can get back on your feet and had I have not being honest with myself in that moment man, I would have turned that down and gone through and being a stubborn prick and gone through more hardship but instead I remember humbling myself and I hated doing the work and I went and did it but I remember like having these pivotal moments where I was like shoveling the driveway with my headphones in and doing this manual labor and I was like man this is so good for me, this is I'm so grateful for this because it's humbling me and that means that I can start again from here, I've now accepted where I'm at which means I can take the first step which means I can get momentum going the right way again and this power and that bro but it takes, it takes a bit of bravery and momentary courage to face and be honest about where you're actually at Yeah, 100% man that is so powerful bro and I think you know tying everything back in together yes, it is important to set goals and have an understanding of where your destination is, but there's no point in having a fucking destination if you don't know where your start point is totally, you know, and being honest about where your start point is, is super powerful, it is the fucking cog for how the rest of that process is built.

You need to know where you're at right now, before you can set a direction. We've spoken about adversity a number of times throughout this episode, and, you know, both you and I have faced a lot of adversity in different adversity throughout our lives and uh we kind of had similar upbringings, I didn't know my father, I never met him, your father left when he was five years old, um you'd attended a Way too many funerals by the time you're 18, you've had some family members, friends killed in tragic circumstances, your brothers faced chronic illness that almost killed him as well, and you kind of felt helpless in that situation. Can you talk about some of the adversities that you have faced throughout your life, and also not just what what you faced, but how that affected you mentally, and then the steps and processes that you put in place to kind of take some lessons from that? Yeah, sure man, I mean, I think um adversities are given right, Like you're going to face it, some of us might face different, varying degrees of it, um and greater adversity than others and typically more, you know, some of it's out of your control, but a lot of the time when you've got big goals and you're striving towards big big things, you're going to be the person who comes across the most adversity because that's the responsibility of chasing big goals.

Um like I said, like when I was young man, I think I'm very grateful for my upbringing, like my dad left, yet when I was five, my brother was, I don't know if he was born at that stage, I think he was like about to be born and um you know, mom raised us a single mom with very little money and we had heaps of love and and you know, a great home environment and my mom's absolutely incredible woman uh and my dad's a great guy, like we've got a fantastic relationship, but I'm grateful for the fact that it happened because it meant that I had to grow up, um I had to grow up early, I had to grow up young, I don't know if I did it consciously or not, but I probably took um you know, a mentoring or kind of fatherly role of my younger brother, like me and my younger brother incredibly close and I guess I had to uh in some ways whether I was aware of it or not protect him and sort of look after him and um you know, there's probably times, I don't know, probably times where I hated that and I probably was angry about it as a kid or whatever, but looking back on it and what are absolute blessing because that adversity taught me many lessons young and, and it it allowed me to like, like I had to learn to communicate again, I'm gonna come back to communication, but I had to be brave in certain situations.

I don't know, like it just prepared me and probably got me a few years ahead of someone who had had an easy upbringing And um I did, you know, like you mentioned there, I think I'd attended like nine funerals by the time I was 18 of friends, car crashes, actually, mainly car crashes. One guy in a helicopter crash as you're sitting his pilot's license. Um just you know, like I'd really seen that life was short and that it's not to be taken for granted. And um you know, I guess I hadn't probably handled those situations with a relatively, I mean, don't get me wrong, some of them really shook me, but I was able to get through them and I guess take learnings and lessons from them probably because of the fact that I'd had some hardships growing up, you know, um and I didn't didn't really take anything for granted. What were some of those lessons that you talk from that to be honest. But number one thing around the tragic stuff is just fucking do not take life for granted. Like number one first and foremost when you see young people dying around you like that, you know, you think you're invincible and even when you're like, yeah, love short block, you don't believe that can be taken from you tomorrow, like you just, you just don't actually live into that and and that's because you can't like you've got a plan for a long life, but I think seeing a lot of that was like a real eye opener, that you're not bulletproof and that you need to make the most of what's in front of you and I don't mean like necessarily even set big goals, I just mean like allow yourself to be present in the moment and enjoy what's happening right now, like I'm really enjoying this podcast, I could hop off this podcast and I could be doing this podcast with you right now and be like thinking about the future and how it's gonna be perceived and all that stuff and wouldn't really enjoy connecting with you right now, but I'm really enjoying having a conversation with you and so I probably learned things like that, like actually it's not about saying enjoy, you know, life short, enjoy, that's like enjoy the moment right now, like be present enough to actually feel what's going on right now and allow yourself to enjoy it.

Um and it's not all perfect and I learned to, I also learned probably one of the main things man is that bad emotion, uh there's no such thing as bad emotions and that all emotions are just emotions and we label them and so we're taught like happy is good and sad is bad. I mean who the fun came up with that just it's just an emotion like it's the same thing happening, It's an emotional response and then we've labeled them as a society to say that this is good and this is bad and then we live into that. And so half the time we like feeling bad because we feel sad but that's like a human emotion and we shouldn't feel bad for feeling sad. And so I think I learned through a lot of that stuff that actually allowing yourself to feel sadness and allowing yourself to feel pain and allowing yourself to see the other side of the coin is fucking powerful and it's fine and there's actually a lot of freedom in that man because you're not constantly fighting not feeling certain ways and then feeling like you failed because you feel it if that makes sense. And so that's probably one big thing that came out of like a lot of tragedy and and like I said like seeing tragedy around me, I'm lucky I've got my brothers and my mom and like the people closest to me, you know, I haven't had to deal with it on that level.

But um I think I learned early that all emotions are good. It's your perception of it and I think that's a really powerful lesson because I think we spent a lot of, you know, a lot of people spend a lot of time beating themselves up for feeling a certain way and it's actually it's actually all good. Yeah. Yeah. It just it just is it just it just is man and that's that's a part of mine on this, right, is is like understanding that emotions are just emotions, they're going to come and go and they are influenced by so many things, both internal factors, external factors and you know, you can't control them, but what you can control is your actions and your perception and how you perceive them and how you label them okay, and like you said, you don't have to label them, but a lot of people do write the emotions also gone. No, I'm just going to say you're exactly right. Another thing um that I learned is that you can always you can always find as many reasons to be grateful for something as um as angry, you know, like so take my dad leaving or whatever.

Like if you if I actually got a piece of paper and wrote that out now, I would be conditioned to believe that that was a bad thing. But actually I'm grateful for it man, I wouldn't have the relationship that I have with my dad now, if they didn't split, like I wouldn't have the relationship my parents, but like I love my mom for who she is, I love my dad for who he is and like had they have stayed together, it would have been a nightmare and so like I'm grateful for the way that that played out and I just, I just learned, I think that if you in any situation to write it down on a piece of paper you could, if you force yourself to find as many reasons to be grateful for that situation as to not be and I know that some people will listen to and go what if someone dies or what you know and and I get it, I'm not saying that it's all easy but like you could also choose to just be grateful for the time that you go with that person and like be grateful for all the characteristics and every lesson that they taught and then you could think about every moment that you had and you could be grateful for all of that and it goes back to that growth mindset thing that you brought up earlier. It's like if you if you have that ability to find gratitude in the moment and to to look at the lessons and the learnings and the growth in every situation.

I think it just like you have a much better quality of life man. But I think one of the, one of the key things just to answer that question that you ask because I think it's really pivotal is that I just learned that emotions are just emotions and they're not going to bad. And also that if you choose to, you can always find reasons to be grateful for anything that's happening to you, extremely powerful man that is. Forking awesome. That's great stuff mate. Um I've got to start wrapping up broke so I've gotta head to work very soon. But uh let's do you have any mentors you spoke about your your dad not being there for a while? Like have you had, did you have like another mentor father figure or um you know, any other powerful mentors or anything like that coaches in your life that have shaped the person that you are today and the um, the business mind that you have. Um Yeah, I've had, I've had different people. I've never had like someone who really stands out like that. Like to be totally honest, my, me and my brother have looked after each other a lot and I've learned a truckload from my younger brother. He's pretty incredible guy. Like he's been through chronic illness, he's in business as well.

We've got a lot of similar interests. Um to be totally honest man, he's been a mentor to me and and still is to this day. Um and You know, I've been, I was lucky, like I think the guy robbed that I mentioned when I was at the marketing company, the door to door sales company. Like I think he really, whether he knows it or not really shaped me in a positive way and instilled a lot of the mindsets and outlooks that I have today, he actually got me at a pivotal age, I was like 18 or 19 and he had a really positive impact on me um and that's cool man, he's he's going to find out by listening to this. He's a good dude, he's actually a mixed martial artist and like, he's a great dude owns a gym on the Sunshine Coast. Um he's one of those people, like, we don't talk heat, but when we connect it's like, like there was no time in between, you know, it's like you just catch up again. Um but yeah, he, he was a really positive role model on me and, and then in business, I just think with when it comes to mentors and stuff like um everyone has the ability to find the mentor that they need, and particularly now because you can plug into a podcast like this, like right now this is a form of mentoring.

Um You might not, I think people with mentors, it's like you put barriers up and you're like, oh I don't have those people around me, therefore I'm a victim of the circumstance, but like you can go and read a book, you can listen to a podcast, you if, you know, like Brenda Bouchard, I've never ever met the guy, I've done his courses, I've listened to truckloads of the stuff, he's been an incredible mentor for me. Um and there's people like that that I've never met, but I've chosen to make them my mentors and to listen to them and to follow their footsteps because they have the outcomes that I want, and I think that's a powerful thing as well. Um But yeah, I have I have had people that have had an impact on me, like in my personal life, for sure. Yeah, that's a good point that you make as well as it's not, you know, mentors are not necessarily always positive, like I look at my step dad and he's a fucking he's a piece of sh it, right? And I looked at him and I'm like, well I don't want to be like that. So he was a mentor in a way and he shaped my journey because you know, I didn't want to follow in his footsteps totally man, and I think that that's such a good point, but that's just your perception again, like you can be open to that learning or you can be closed or you open to it and it's probably changed the trajectory of your life in a positive way, but had you not been open to that, then, you know, who knows?

Uh and you know, one thing with with dad, like remember someone said to me really early on, I remember exactly who it was, but they said something along the lines of like if you're gonna be angry with him, you also have to be grateful for all the things for all the attributes that you got from him and I was like uh that's a really good point and I like, you know, like you're really charismatic and you're like outgoing and you're like the life of the party when you're at a party and like listed all these things that my dad is and I'm like, would you have that if he wasn't your dad and I was like funk, I'm grateful for that man. Like, you know? And so I just think like if you know, if you're gonna look for the bad in people or in situations like there's always more positive if you, if you're willing to look for it and in life I just think you find what you look for me and like the pandemic is a classic example. You and I found opportunity and I started a podcast, you started a podcast. I feel like I've grown a lot over the last few months. I've actually, I don't say that lightly because I know that a lot of people have had genuine hardship during this time, but I feel like this has actually been a good time for me, like I feel like I've had a good few months but I looked for that and I just think when I look out there at the moment, people are looking for negative news lines, they're looking for negative sucking conversation when they get with their mates, they're complaining about the state of the world and like if that's what you're looking for me and you will find more and more and more and more of it, but if you look for the good, you also find more and more and more of it.

Yeah, I don't know why you'd be looking for the negative stuff. No. Yeah, that is fucking amazing. Um there's one more thing that I want to finish up on the name of this podcast is live train, perform and that is live life to the fullest train to your potential and perform at your best. What does that motto mean to you? Well, that's a tough question. The train bit stands out for me because I think we're always in training, like, I don't know if we ever, if there's ever a finish line, I think like, training is, is a really good um it's a mindset in itself, man, it's like, it's not just about I know that for you, a lot of that's about the physical, but we're constantly in training, whether it's growing our skill sets, whether it's growing up physical bodies, whether it's growing our relationships or whatever and all of that is a training ground and that kind of goes back to the mindset that we just talked about um live life to the fullest obviously, man, like it's limited. You get one crack, you know, it's um sounds cheesy to say, but you know, there's like what one and four trillion chance of even being born. Um I don't know how many people died in the last 24 hours in the world, but I imagine it's a staggering amount and I wasn't one of them, so um I'm grateful for that and I think, you know when you have that perspective, you should get out and just live it because like I said, it's it's not granted and um it's something that we should show a lot more gratitude for and performed your potential man, I think if you're ever going to get the most out of the most joy and the most happiness out of life, you need to be striving to reach your potential.

Um you know, like one of the things that's come through in the studies for human happiness is actually the need for challenge and the ability to challenge yourself because we actually need that. Yet as humans, we often try and avoid it, we try and step away from all the challenge. We try and find the easy route, but actually in some of the hardest things is where we get the most joy and the most fulfillment and so I think we should, you know, all be striving to reach our potential um and not shying away from challenges stuff because that's actually where the juice of life is, that's where the feeling is. Uh and that's where happiness lives, man. That is fucking an amazing point to finish on, mate, it's been amazing chatting to you. Always love, you know, diving into anything with you always good conversations may and I appreciate you being on the left train performing podcast. Let's chat again soon buddy. Yeah, Thanks man. I really appreciate you having me on and giving me a platform to have a chat and yeah, you know, I just want to acknowledge you for the work that you're doing as well, You're, you know, having a positive impact and it's been awesome to connect. Thank you brother. It's been a pleasure to be on this journey alongside.

You will have all of Jamie's links in the show notes. Thank you very much for coming on the show brother. Let's chat again soon. Peace.

Jamie O'Donnell of the Life Livers Academy
Jamie O'Donnell of the Life Livers Academy
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