A heads up before we get started. Mobbed up contains explicit content such as adult language and depictions of violence, including murder. Please be advised that this podcast might not be suitable for all audiences.
June 26th 1985, It's day three of a public hearing held by the President's Commission on Organized Crime. A witness has been sworn in and is ready to begin his testimony. Although this is a public hearing, the TV cameras have all been removed from the room. A screen has been placed in front of the witness. The deputy chief counsel to the commission explains that this is intended to protect his present appearance that he has been in the witness security program for the past two years. Then the questioning begins.
"You're from Chicago, originally, that's correct?"
From behind the screen, a gruff, matter of fact voice with a thick Chicago accent replies :
"That is correct."
"When did you move to Las Vegas?"
"May of 1978."
"Did you discuss your intention to move to Las Vegas with anyone?"
"Yes, I did it."
"Who was that?"
"Why did you discuss wanting to move to Las Vegas with Tony Spilotro?"
"You had to have permission to move out there."
"Why do you have to have permission?"
"Because he was overseeing the gambling interests out there, the casinos."
"On behalf of who?"
"The Chicago outfit."
"By that, you mean the Chicago Mafia?"
"That is correct."
"What was your relationship with Mr. Spilotro?"
"I worked for him. He was my boss."
"What do you mean when you say that you worked for Tony Spilotro?"
"I committed burglaries, murder, extortions from dope dealers. Bring messages back and forth to the casinos. Collected juice money."
"Of this litany of this long list, what was your main occupation?"
"I was a burglar."
When you got power.
You don't care about the money.
For the Las Vegas Review Journal in partnership with the Mob Museum. I'm Reed Redmond
"He's one of you. You kill him."
You're listening to mobbed up. A true story about money.
"You're not supposed to have a profile like that. Especially in Vegas."
Crime "You want to be very quiet so you can steal the money."
"He always said if you pull a gun on somebody, you finish it. Because if you don't it's going to come back to haunt you."
"And I have never seen, 'What's going on here', and he's saying they're trying to kill me and I said, 'Who's trying to kill you?'? And then he shut up.
and the fight for control of Las Vegas
"The FBI will continue to look to the future to use the latest and most sophisticated techniques to fight organized crime."
"The mob would have destroyed Las Vegas, the only question is not if, but when it would be destroyed."
"I was there every day with these fellas. I had no idea that there was a mob."
"And he once told somebody, There's bodies out there in the desert and there's more every day."
But if there is one area where the word war is appropriate, it is in the fight against crime.
When you grab them, you'll bring them to the desert. You're gonna know where the hole has been dug.
Part I : Our religion.
"Yeah, Las Vegas was better off when it was run by the mob." If you've spent some time in Vegas, you've heard it before. And if you live in Vegas, you hear it all the time. The city was better when the mob had a stranglehold on its biggest business. It's life blood. When the Las Vegas Strip was largely mobbed up and crime families from all over the country: New York, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Chicago had a tight grip on the flow of cash from many of the casinos.
"The people who say that the mob was that Las Vegas was better in those mob days they missed the camps."
This is retired reporter and columnist Jean Ann Morrison, who wrote for the Las Vegas Review Journal for nearly four decades. "The locals went to the hotels and were treated very nicely as locals, and they got. They got lots of camps and they didn't have to pay for food, drink or shows. And people took care of them. They felt the town likes them."
Oftentimes, when people say they missed the mob days, it's because they're nostalgic for a time when Las Vegas was smaller. When there was less traffic. When you be greeted by name walking into a casino. They miss the free flowing booze, comp shows, free parking and buck 99 buffets. They miss things like pie night, which will get back to in a second.
"To this day when people ask me where I'm from and I say Las Vegas, you get that. Uh, look!"
the voice you're hearing belongs to Stan Hunterton, who moved to Las Vegas in the late seventies to prosecute the mob as a special attorney with the US Department of Justice Organized Crime Strike Force.
When I sat down with Stan, he told me about a late uncle of his who would often say to him,
"The town was better off when the mob ran it."
Stan says his uncle had a fair perspective, one based on his experience, living in Las Vegas during the mob days.
"He and his wife would go to pie night, which they would have in the showrooms and once a week, once a month, something like that, where you could go to a show and see the main act and get pie and coffee for a dollar or $5 something like that."
Pie night, as far as I know, no longer exists. And you know what? That sucks. Pie night sounds great. If that was your only experience with the mob it makes sense. You'd be nostalgic for the mob days. But as Stan would point out in more ways than one, not everyone in Vegas got to enjoy their slice of the pie.
"That, of course, leaves out the murders. The fact that Mafia obviously wasn't paying taxes on its share of the hall."
And the idea that the city was better off when the mob was running the show. Well, it's not a point of view held by everyone. It was around back then.
"It's held by people who first were not killed by the Mafia, and second didn't have a family member who did."
Thursday, October 11th, 1979 It's about 4 30 In the morning as Jeannie listener pulls up to her home in Las Vegas, she'd rushed back from the Aladdin Hotel and Casino on the Las Vegas Strip that has since been demolished, where she worked as a cocktail waitress. Genie had called home multiple times during her shift that night, but all of her calls went unanswered.
Her husband, Jerry Lisner, was supposed to be home worried. Genie had decided to leave work to go check on him. She hurried home from the Aladdin when she pulled up to her usually neat, ivy covered two story home. Something was off, the garage door was open and the garage light was on inside, and there was blood in the entryway between the garage in the living room and leading from the garage to the backyard.
When Jeannie stepped inside, the home looked like it had been ransacked. Her belongings had been tossed around. There were bullet holes marking the walls, and her sliding glass door was open and smeared with blood.
Jeannie frantically searched the house for any sign of her husband. Then she went out to the backyard, where her pool was located.
The water was bloodied, and she spotted a body floating face down, wearing a T shirt and bathing suit.
"His wife tried to get ahold of him, apparently on the phone."
This is true crime author Dennis Griffin.
"And she called a couple of times, and when he didn't answer, she took off from work and came home and found the body."
Jeannie screamed, recognizing the body as that of her husband, Jerry.
"Yes she obviously was very upset, find her husband floating in the swimming pool."
Still screaming, she tried to pull her husband's body from the water. Some of her neighbors were woken up. One would tell the Review Journal that their dog had been barking from their backyard earlier in the night, and that at about 4:00 AM.
"I heard this woman screaming: 'Help me, help me, help me.' My wife jumped up and got my son. So he jumps over the fence and in the meantime, I got over there with my wife."
They help Jeannie pull her husband's body from the water. According to the neighbors, she stated :
"Oh, he's not dead. He's warm."
But when they checked for a pulse, nothing. More Neighbors showed up and they made efforts to revive him. But the 46 year old husband and father of two was already dead. The coroner's autopsy would reveal that Jerry Lisner died of multiple gunshot wounds to the head.
Hours after Jerry Listeners body was discovered, the front page of the evening edition of the Las Vegas Review Journal featured the headline: Con Suspect Killed in Bloody Murder.
At the time of his death, Jerry was a con suspect. He was suspected of running a con game in Washington D. C. And was free on bond following an FBI arrest two months prior, he was set to be tried in a few weeks in Washington D. C.
The Con game he was allegedly involved in sounds like something straight out of a Movie. In fact, an article published in The Review Journal at the time compares it to the last scene of the 1973 movie The Sting, starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford.
Here's how it worked. According to a conspiracy indictment filed in federal court. Jerry Lisner and his associates lured a bunch of businessmen to Washington D. C. Where the targets of the scheme were supposedly going to trade suitcases full of clean cash for a larger amount of stolen money, money that presumably never existed. When the businessman handed over the cash, police officers or conspirators who were dressed as police officers would stage a fake police raid and confiscate the suitcases.
The targets of the con game would walk away, gladly, leaving the money behind, just thankful that they hadn't been arrested.
By the time undercover officers and FBI agents infiltrated the group running the con the indictment alleges that they netted at least $278,000 off the scheme. That's close to a million in today's money.
In total, eight men were arrested, four were former police officers, two were current officers and one was, of course, Jerry Lisner who was ultimately charged with bribery, interstate transportation of stolen property, aiding and abetting and grand larceny.
In the days following Jerry's murder, investigators said they did not believe the sting case was directly connected. There were, however, plenty of other rumors going around. The day after Jerry's body was discovered another article was published in the Review Journal, in which staff writer Clyde Weiss wrote : Sources say it was believed Lisner had been a bag man for the mob, a carrier of money. It was also rumored he was an FBI informant on organized crime.
"Frank, can I get you to clip this on your lapel?"
"Uh, tell me where, here? You wanna right here?"
This is Frank Cullotta. He used to know Jerry Lisner, the alleged con man who was shot to death in his home. According to Frank, the two of them were both career criminals who worked together back in the day. But Frank says he's really not a bad guy anymore.
"I'm too too old to be a bad guy. How could I run? I can't even walk."
I met Frank for the first time in the parking lot of a restaurant on the north end of the Las Vegas Strip. The Peppermill, one of the few spots on Las Vegas Boulevard That hasn't really changed that much since the 1970s
"That restaurants been there a little over 50 years. So we've been going in and out of there for as long as I live there."
Frank had agreed to take me on a tour of the city. It's a long story, but that's something he does pretty regularly nowadays. We chat for a bit and then head out with Frank security guard Louis driving the vehicle. Frank insists that he doesn't need much security anymore. I'm honestly not so sure.
"And if there's somebody who wants to try to take a pop shot at me, I don't know how they're gonna get rewarded. I don't know that, and so you know, I just don't need I don't feel I need security. I'm not afraid."
So we drive around for a while, and Frank tells me stories about life as a criminal in Las Vegas during the seventies and eighties. Stories I can't relate to whatsoever but I'm captivated by.
"Now I used to live across the street. You see where it says Sunrise Villa 7?. We cops in every day, playing basketball. I knew they were cops. Nobody ever played basketball on the street over there. And they watched this. I used to come over the fence when I was sneaking out the wall. Have somebody pick me up on the street over. Because they were too busy thinking I wasn't gonna come out the back way."
"They used to put transponders on my car. You know what a transponder is, right?"
"It's like a little tracker?"
"Yeah, they put it underneath the fender wall. The cops told me later on, they said you were the only guy we couldn't keep a tracker on your car. And I said, why? Because you used to hit them. They got them bumps in the street."
"You go over, you know, back them off."
"And every time I knock them off they break. That's $1300 of them things costs. And then they couldn't find me. So they asked the guy that was around my house. 'Is he home? We don't see him.' They said ' Yeah, he's home.' So then they had to backtrack and look for that tracker. Then they just start putting them on me."
After a couple hours of driving around Vegas, I finally have a chance to ask Frank about working with Jerry Lisner.
"Can you tell me how you met Jerry Lisner?
"Yeah, easily. He used to hang around with a guy by the name of Joey DeFranzo. Joey DeFranzo was a friend of mine from Chicago who lived out here. And Joey DeFranzo introduced me to this Jerry Lisner guy. And I didn't like this Jerry Lisner guy. He had that weasel effect, you know, like I don't know. I just didn't like him."
But Jerry seemed to like Frank. Or at the very least, he liked Frank enough to want to work with him. So he started showing up at spots where Frank was known to hang out.
"This Jerry Lisner started coming around me when I was in nightclubs out there. the jubilation and stuff."
Author Dennis Griffin :
"Frank met him in I believe, a bar where all these guys hung out. And he offered them a story and lined up basically a con job sting operation, if you will."
Jerry wanted Frank's help running a money scam, not entirely unlike the scam he would be arrested for shortly before his death. The plan, according to Frank, involved filling an attache case with stacks of $1 bills covering the stacks with a single row of hundreds and convincing a target that the case was packed with $400,000.
"They would convince this guy they were going to, you know, launders money for him, and let's say he had $100,000. They were going to give him $75,000 that way they make $25,000 profit. But they actually exchanged the money, he'd only be getting this flash money and they would be getting the whole thing."
"And, of course, because it's an illegal operation, the guy can't go to the cops and so forth."
That's the short version. Anyway, here's how Frank remembers Jerry's pitch :
"So we got to talk and he always had his old lady with him, his wife. And he said, listen, he says, I got something I can do and this and that I like to have you involved in. We could make $175,000 Oh, my ears start perking at $175,000 Some money rip off. And I listened to his far fetched story, and I realized I said, 'Why do you want me in this?' He said 'well because the guy I'm ripping off is connected and he's out of Florida.' And if they know I'm with you after we rip them off, they can't do nothing because of you guys. The power you guys got."
"You say connected. you mean.."
"The Chicago outfit. You know, we're connected. Don't touch. Stay away from the outfit. You know."
That's right. Frank was connected to the Chicago outfit, the more common name for the organized crime syndicate out of Chicago.
And this is probably an understatement, but it was an organization you wouldn't want to mess with. So, according to Frank, Jerry wanted him in on his plan because of his close ties to the outfit. And remember, as Frank is telling me about all this, we're still driving around Las Vegas.
"So if it works out, so we all wind up we money.... Go to the next Dr.
Frank says he thought Jerry's plan was pretty stupid, but he figured the potential payday was worth giving the con man's idea a shot. "We did it. Him and I and it didn't work out. And I was sort of mad at him because I thought it was stupid. Anyway, we had to do it in Washington D. C. And his brother in law was a cop out there, and we're going to use his brother in law as a cop. It's confusing story. Long story. I don't want to go through it. It fell apart. Nothing happened."
"They went to Florida, spend time and money, money for a hotel rooms and expenses. Now listen. The whole deal fell apart."
"The guy got cold feet or whatever canceled everything. So Frank Frank was not happy about that. It was a big waste of time and money in his opinion. But Lisner offered, I guess. He said he felt guilty, and he offered Frank Quaalude or something that Frank would be able to sell for him and make some of his money back. Make the expense money back so that that's how Frank got involved with him was through this failed money laundering scam."
The scam didn't work out, but that wouldn't be the last time Frank would be in touch with Jerry about a business opportunity. Eventually, as I'm driving around with Frank and his security guard, we reach a residential neighborhood. The neighborhood isn't far from the Las Vegas Strip, maybe a 10 minute drive. But aside from a handful of the more imposing casinos peeking out in the distance over the tops of houses, you really wouldn't know it. It's quiet. Not exactly the kind of scenery that makes it into the what happens here, ads. They run on TV all over the country. We drive down a tree lined street dotted with single family homes, and as we're approaching an intersection, Frank spots the house
he wants to show me.
"That's where he was killed in that home, see what that Mercedes is and that limousine that was his home."
After the break. What happened to Jerry Lisner?
Before the break, Frank Cullotta, his security guard I had driven to the former home of Jerry Lisner, an alleged con man who was shot to death in 1979. As we're sitting in Frank's SUV outside the home, I'm trying to wrap my head around what happened there 40 years ago.
Well, I happened to be sitting next to one of the only witnesses to Jerry's murder.
See, Frank was at Jerry's home the night he was killed. They'd set up a meeting for the night of October 10th, 1979 to discuss a business opportunity.
Frank wasn't Jerry's biggest fan after their failed money scam in Florida, but if there was money to be made, what did it matter? So Frank had reached out earlier that day to see if Jerry would be up for running another con with him.
"Frank called Lisner and told me if I need to talk to you about a deal, you know, when can we get together and Frank said, but it's going to be private. So Listener was married, but his wife worked at one of the casinos, and he said my wife will be gone at work, he said. You can come over such and I think it was October 10th 79. Frank says okay."
Frank headed over to Jerry's home and Jerry let him in.
"And then they went inside. And frankly, I thought you were going to be a long It's the same long because I heard a noise coming from down the hall. So, Lisner said 'Nobody's here.' I'll show you follow me So Lisner starts down hallway toward the interior of the house."
We're still sitting outside the house. As Frank tells me, what happened next
"And he let me in. I was gonna talk to him about another one of his money scams, You know that I had, like I was lying to him."
Frank wasn't at this house for a business meeting.
"I didn't have any gloves on because it would have looked a little funny right with gloves on. When he opened up the door, I started shooting him in the head. And he didn't die right then, and as I said, he ran."
"And Frank says the bullets hit. You know, he said, I couldn't miss. I was there like a foot away, he said. I saw stuff flying out of his head and hit the wall. He said Lisner turn around and say 'What are you doing?'"
Frank wasn't using a silencer, but he tells me he had taken some of the gunpowder out of his bullets to cut down on noise.
"And I broke the loads down. I made half flows out of them."
As he recalls, the shots were still pretty loud, and apparently the bullets were less effective. Round after round after round hit Jerry in the head.
But to Frank Surprise, his target was still standing. And once he processed, what the hell was happening, that Frank was here to kill him. He tried to get away.
Frank chased him and keep the rest of their rounds into his head as they were running and Lisner still didn't go down. He finally, when you get to the garage door, collapsed to the floor and Frank has an empty gun at this point. Lisner trashing around. Frank gets on top of them, but Lisner still very lively. Frank's trying to find something else to used to finish them off. There's a knife on a ledge or window sill or something nearby. But Frank can't quite reach it. There's an electric water cooler there that he can reach. He yanks the cord out of the water cooler electric cord, and he's going to strangle Lisner with it, and when he wraps it around his neck, the cord broke."
Somehow, Jerry was still alive, but Frank hadn't shown up alone.
He had backup, and at some point his partner, a guy named Wayne Matecki, came in to see what was taking so long.
"I emptied that revolver in his head and he still was alive, so we had to reload it. Fortunately, we brought, he brought extra bullets. The guy that was with me, and I emptied it out in his head, and then he finally died."
Before leaving, Frank and his partner, Wayne, did what they could to cover their tracks. They didn't want to leave fingerprints on Jerry's clothes, so they dragged the body out to the pool and split it into the water legs first. As we slowly drive past the front of the home, Frank points at a concrete brick wall wrapped around the backyard.
"Sweep the house. You can see it. Just sweep. The swimming pool where I dumped his body was right behind this wall. Here, see this brick wall? That's right. threw him in the water."
After sliding the body into the pool, Frank and Wayne went back into the house.
"After they finished Lisner off. They ransacked the house or search the house because they were concerned that he might have recording devices or some things they wanted to make sure there was no evidence."
"And when they went through the house looking for stuff that had the effect of making it look perhaps like a burglary. They didn't intend it to. But the police kind of thought that, well, maybe, you know it was hit because the Lisner grand jury stuff and the killers intentionally tried to make it look like a burglary to throw everybody off. But it wasn't done with that intent. It was it was because they were looking for any possible evidence that might tie them into the murder."
The two killers drove off, leaving behind a disturbing and bloody scene, the scene Jerry's wife would come home to in a matter of hours.
So why did Frank Cullotta murder Jerry Lisner? Well, Frank tells me he was acting on orders from his boss orders that he couldn't say no to.
"When you're ordered to kill somebody, you better do it."
"If you don't, they're gonna kill you. They wouldn't come to you and tell you to kill so and so if they I thought you would say no you know what I mean."
His boss at the time, Anthony Spilotro, a high profile reputed enforcer for the Chicago outfit. For reference If you've ever seen the Scorsese film "Casino", Tony Spilotro served as the inspiration for Joe Pesci's character, Nicky. Here's Jeff Schumacher, vice president of exhibits and programs at the Mob Museum.
"When you look at the history of organized crime in America, you really can break down the kinds of mobsters that are most prominent. There are the the people who are interested in making money and believe that there are ways to influence the society and the system through money and coercion without resorting to violence. And then there are the the other faction of the mob that sees violence as the primary means towards gaining power and more money and eliminating problems."
According to Jeff, Tony Spilotro was the latter.
Spilotro was a guy who had the old school mentality, that violence is a way to solve problems.
"Whose decision was it to take out Lisner? Was that you or was that Tony?"
"It was Tony."
"Were you in on the decision?"
"He told me I got to do it."
Jerry Lisner was a problem. At least that's the way Frank Cullotta says he and Tony saw it. He tells me they've gotten word that Jerry was providing information about them to the Feds. Remember when he was killed Jerry was awaiting trial for a laundry list of charges stemming from a money scam in Washington D. C. Giving up information on a high profile reputed mobster like Tony Spilotro could go a long way if Jerry was shopping for a reduced sentence.
"See when we found out. We found out the same day that Lisner was testifying at us.. He called us Jerry Lisner lawyer was in there, and he was talking to Joe Pignatelli, and he told him that he had a client that lived out here that was testifying and, uh, two people.
"So Joe Pignatelli. He acted like a dummy, and he says, 'What's their names? Maybe I might know of them. They might be my customers.' Guy says 'Tony Spilotro and Frank Cullotta and Joe Pignatelli says, 'I never heard of them.' So when the lawyer left to go back to North Virginia, whatever Virginia, where he was from, Joe calls us Tony and Tony calls me and we come down here, Joe tells us. And then when we walked out of there, we didn't say that the Joe what we were gonna do or Tony wanted me to do As soon as we got out of the door, he says, 'You know what that means don't you, Frankie?' And I said, 'Yep', 'because you got to kill him', he says. 'Or else he's gonna put his spot in jail. The Feds don't know if he's lying or not."
That was it. Frank and Tony got word that Jerry might be rolling over on them, so he had to be taken out of the picture. This was the world they lived in. You looked out for yourself and you looked out for the organization. The outfit. If Jerry was a rat, he had to go. Frank would later tell me that this was just the code he was raised by.
" All my life I was raised as you never become a rat. That's against our religion let's say."
After he received the orders, it was up to Frank to figure out how to get the job done.
"So when I was ordered to kill him, it took about two or three weeks before we could line it up, you know?"
"How did you prepare?"
"Well, you know, we had to break the bullets down, Tony suggested half loads, less noisier in the house. But that proved to be not correct. It was very loud. The bullet shots were very loud."
The Lisner hit Wasn't the first time Frank had been ordered to kill someone. Before we drive back to the Peppermill, the restaurant where I met Frank to go on a tour, Frank tells me there had been other outfit jobs.
"Do you reflect on that a lot?"
"Do I think about it a lot? No, not no more. I did for a long time. But no more. You need to let it go by you. It's gotta go by you or you're gonna wind up in a nuthouse if you think about it."
Here's Frank recalling more details about the night of the murder at a 2016 event held at the Mob Museum.
"So I did. I wind up getting Wayne, you know, I drove the Burbank, flew to Chicago. Med Wayne asked him if we wanted to do it. He said, 'Yeah', that night we flew back out. We went to Burbank, California, and we drove to Vegas. The reason why we went through that, because at that time, anybody coming from Chicago, they would know. They had cameras and all that shit back then too. So it all happened in one night."
"How do you feel about this today? I mean, regret how do you feel about it?
"Well, of course I have regrets and all now, you know. But at the time, I didn't have regrets because it was just part of my life. I knew no better. I didn't know any better. Now I regret it, but I can't bring him back. I can't bring any of them people back. It was the wrong thing to do. But I was in an organization of group people where everything was justified."
"And if you didn't if I didn't do that, I would have been whacked. So you don't go up to somebody and say I want you to kill this guy. If you say no, then you're dead. That's the way it was with the organization, with the outfit."
Frank tells me you have to find some way to justify it. And the way he saw it, he was fighting a war.
"You know, of course, I feel terrible about what I've done, but I always justified and you might get a little upset about what I'm going to say this, but you know our military guys, they go overseas and they kill a lot of people for their country. The outfit was my country. Let's put it like that. So we did what we had to do. And that's the way it was.
On part two of mobbed up Frank Cullotta meets the man who would eventually bring him out to Las Vegas.
"So we met in the middle of the street. He went to grab my collar and I pushed him away, and he says, 'This is my territory.'
"I'm the only one allowed on the street, not you. You know you can't even get permission' And I said, 'What's your name?' And he says, 'Tony Spilotro'" and I looked up at the sign and I knew what I was doing. I said, "I don't see your fucking name on the sign" This has been part one of Mobbed Up, a production of the Las Vegas Review Journal in partnership with the Mob Museum. Guess you could say we're connected.
Mobbed up is brand new, so if you're enjoying it, please subscribe to the series on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Help others find out about us by telling your friends and your enemies and leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This series is reported and produced by me. Reed Redmond's. If you have any tips, feedback or questions you want to share with me, you can reach me on Twitter @ReedRedmond or send an email to email@example.com.
Our sound designer and audio editor for this series is Jonathan McMichael, who also composed our theme song. Special thanks to Frank Cullotta for Taking Me out on his tour, something you can learn more about that holeinwallgang.biz Thanks also to Jane Anne Morrison, Stan Hunterton, Dennis Griffin and Mob Museum, vice president of exhibits and programs
Jeff Schumacher for Sitting Down With Me for this episode. Select audio clips used in the intro to this episode are from the Oral History Research Center in the UNLV Library special collections and archives. Music and sound effects are from Stephen Arnold Music and Motion Array. You can learn more about the Mob museum by visiting the mobmuseum.org, and you can learn more about mobbed up by visiting reviewjournal.com/podcast
Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you on the next episode.