Hello and welcome to the novel and non obvious podcast where we discuss the intellectual property topics impacting the startup world. My name is Yoriko mori to the host of this podcast and founder of patents integrated Today. We welcome mike Belcher of script to L. L. C. We'll be discussing the I. P. Considerations that a small company needs to know in order to get themselves ready to talk with very large companies possibly to be acquired by an enterprise level company. So welcome mike. Thank you very much. So glad to have you here. We've had a lot of conversations with you in the past regarding what makes your company and the way that you build companies unique. So can you talk about sort of your entrepreneurial path and how you got into what you're doing? Sure. So let's see here script is my 3rd company. I started with a company that optimized and sped up scientific and engineering codes. So simulation of weather and air flow over aircraft and things like that.
One of our best known customers was one Australia, which is the yacht people in the America's cup yacht race and the fact that their boat sank was not our fault. But they used our software to make their boat go extremely fast right before it sank. And we sold that company to Sun Microsystems. And six or seven years later I became a law school dropout so that I could start a software company helping lawyers draft their legal documents, sold that company to lexisnexis, which is the second largest legal software company in the world. And I am right now back in legal software and the 3rd company Scrip to also helps lawyers with drafting their, their legal documents. Okay, so let's go back to your first company. So you sold it to some microsystems. Did you have that sort of enterprise acquisition in mind when you were building the software and the company around it? At my first company. I was under the mistaken impression that I could run a company.
And so I founded it with the intent of running it indefinitely just as any other software company. And what I discovered was that running a company is very hard. You have to sell all over the world. That means that you have to have You have to be able to answer the phone 24 hours for supporting your software. And sometimes the guy on the other end speaks german and you got to figure out what to do if you've never spoken german before and lots of other things. And so we were fortunate that Sun Microsystems happened to be looking for a product like ours. So we approached them, competed with other companies doing the same thing and they selected us. Was there a formal RFP process. So that request for proposal process or anything like that? There was not and in fact they had no intention of going with us. We heard about them through a stroke of luck and they fully expected to get the software that we had from a company called Cray Computing.
Cray of course defined the supercomputing market and Cray had designed some of their high end machines. And so it was natural that they would pick the Kree software that ran on the Kree hardware that they were reselling but they considered us and it turned out that we beat Cray, wow, that's that's an incredible story really. So with that experience, you went through an acquisition of your company by a much larger company. It sounds like you also learned a little bit about yourself to what you're good at and what you're not good at. You're obviously really good at writing code. Maybe not at running a company. Is that a recognition? Yes, it is. Key elements of running a company are things that I am too poor at to actually be allowed to do, but good enough to supervise others or understand what needs to be done. And so I engage tax professionals to do our taxes.
But over the course of the year, I am responsible for defining our products and writing up the things that we do in a way that would make those activities eligible for the research and development. Tax credit. And so when I show up on my accountant's doorstep and ask him to do my taxes. I can also present him with the appropriate documentation that will let him do his job effectively. When I talk to my lawyers, I can, they practice the law but it's my job to be able to ask them the right questions and to be able to understand when to take their advice, when to question their advice and when to not follow their advice, but then not tell them when they ask. Yeah. And another thing that you mentioned to was with customer support and maybe even the sales process, would you want to do that for your company or is that something that another service that you would outsource or try to get your acquirer to do? It turns out that enterprise sales is a very difficult thing to do and technologists don't give salespeople and non text there.
Do we look at managers and we say, I can sit in meetings all day. I could be a manager if I felt like it and we look at sales people and say, hey, I could, I can stand in front of a room of people and talk about this product and we don't give credit to what, what goes into all of those things. And so as far as the sales go from time to time, son would call me and say, hey, we've got a big sale on the line. We want you to go with our sales people and help us sell the technical aspects of this product and I do that and do it very well. I have plaques on my wall from sales people around the world who said, hey send Michael plaque. He did such a great job. We made a ton of money and in fact the reason that son acquired us is that when Sandia National Laboratories was going out and issued an RFP for an enormous acquisition of computer hardware and software, they came to visit Sun in Sunnyvale and they listed eight people they wanted to see while they were there and I was on that list.
I was the only non son person on the list. And Clark Masters, the VP of the hardware division said, well we can't have tens of millions of dollars riding on some guy who might decide tomorrow, he doesn't like us anymore. So then he initiated the process of acquiring us. Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's something that is a, that's a hard lesson for founders to really recognize even though you started the company and maybe even if you created the product, there are certain roles that you should fill in your company and certain roles that you shouldn't. I think that's a great process that you went through with son in order to make yourself very valuable for them. Indeed and knowing what I do and what I do not do are both important. And there was a guy at Son Alex, luu who said to me, son is lucky to have one of you and Alex being an engineer then qualified, he said. And I mean that Exactly, son is lucky to have one of you three is too many.
Okay let's talk about how. So obviously you had your product that you built with your first company that became valuable for for some microsystems. How did you protect your product to begin with? So that you could be acquired and not just copied? The protection that we did with Sun was all trade secret. I don't recall that we had any patents at all. And the thing with the software it son is that all of the good stuff that we did was not observable. And so even if someone had literally taken our code as is re compiled and sold it under their own name, it would have been very difficult for us to prove that because Matrix multiplication multiplies to matrix seats. That's what it does ours does it faster. But you can't look at something the way you can someone modifying the physical parts of a tractor for example and covering that with patent and if we can't prove infringement then at the time I thought that patents would not help us turned out later.
I was to find out in the second company that was wrong. But in the first company we just simply did everything with trade secrets. And as you can tell from the fact that we beat Cray research craig being the company that created supercomputing we had some pretty good trade secrets. Everything is a builder, right decision. You build it or you buy it and we just kept adding value fast enough to where it was cheaper for son to buy us than to build and reproduce what we had done. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So then let's move on to your second company. Well actually even before that you went to law school, Why law school at a certain point after I had been at Sun Microsystems for six or seven years, I looked around and realized that I had been in software for 30 years By then maybe 20, And I realized that if I kept doing this, I was just gonna keep doing this. And so I looked around at everything. I looked at cooking school long haul trucking literally everything that I thought I could do and I would be good at.
And I settled on the idea that I would like to be a policy analyst with the government, I would like to work for the General services Administration. And when congress was thinking something like should I pass an annual budget for Nasa or should I pass nasa budgets in increments of five years to let them do longer term planning. But still they wouldn't have very much flexibility because they'd be locked in for five years at a time. They turned to the General Services administration and say, hey, what do you guys think? And I wanted to give that advice and as I was considering whether to become a cook a truck driver or a G. S. A policy analyst. I read this legal case checker party V. Diamond and in Chakrabarti V Diamond. The court allowed the patenting of life forms and the judge's decision said and the judge actually wrote this in public where someone might read it so that just tells you something bad about judges.
He said well I've seen the pictures of these genes and genetic materials and it looks a lot like soap bubbles and I know you can patent soap. So I think we ought to go with this. And so now we can patent life forms because the pictures he looked at looked like soap and I thought man no matter how bad I am at law I can do better than that. And so there being other evidence that I was not going to make it as a cook. I started law school so I could become a policy analyst for those of us in I. P. Loss Chakrabarti versus diamond is the infamous case for the quotation anything under the sun, yep can be patented. It's a famous case. So that's pretty funny. So then how did law school go for you? Law school went in two directions for me. I was in the top 10% of my class. So law school went well and I dropped out of law school and so I am in fact two of my law school professors have told me that now for nine years running, I am their favorite law school dropout.
So depending on how you count dropping out of law school law school either went very well or apparently very badly. I dropped out of law school to start a software company to help lawyers write their legal documents. Because you know when you're a freaking genius, like I obviously am a year of law school is enough to let you know how the field of law needs to be redefined at that point. You had already become the market expert. Absolutely. I was the guy who beat cray and by golly as a first year law student, I was going to be the guy who redefined law And you may wonder at this point mike, how did you ever get married to a good person, why would she put up with this sort of thing? You'd have to take that up with her? I still don't know. Okay, sticking with the, with the business aspects. So you became a subject matter expert in legal documents and you started this company, It's the perfect combination of your software background and your newly acquired legal knowledge.
Right? So then what did the second company focus on? So the second company focused on helping lawyers write legal citations in law. We in the United States and pretty much in any of the old british colonies use a system of precedent and citation. And so when you make a statement to the court, you don't just get to say, hey, that guy broke into my house. That's a bad thing. You say that guy broke into my house and that's a bad thing because this statute says it's a bad thing. You have to cite literally every statement. If you read a legal brief, there are sections of the brief where after every single sentence it cites to a legal authority that says, this is why I get to make that statement. This is a statute of regulation of court decision. What have you? The citation format is encoded in a book called the blue book, which is an inch thick of confusing, conflicting rules about what the site and when and why and where. And I saw some data that indicated that up to 30% of the process of writing a legal document is in correcting and updating your citations.
I couldn't believe there wasn't software to do it. I looked around, there wasn't and so I dropped out of law school to write that software and at the time it seemed like an obviously great idea. And because we had gone essentially directly to sun with the first company, I had not actually gotten a good chance to try to sell the software. So I had not yet learned that I'm terrible at that. And so at the second company, then the legal software company, I went and tried selling directly to lawyers and I learned that not only can I not sell to individual lawyers, but I also cannot sell to law firms that has more of an enterprise sales flavor to it, bringing together stakeholders from all across the organization. And we made dozens of dollars that way. And then a friend of mine who used to work at lexisnexis said that they were looking for something like this and introduced us to lexisnexis and Lexus loved it on sight and rapidly licensed it.
And then white labeled it under their own software under the name document tools And Doc tools has one legal software product of the year, six years in a row. And so, um, well lawyers and law firms are notoriously difficult to sell into, especially technology. Right? So tell us a little bit about the way that this whole white labeling aspect of transferring your code to someone else. How does that work? So the white labeling is a potentially very profitable but also a very dangerous line of business because nobody can see that it's us, it's we're intel inside, but nobody sees the name intel. And so we're very much like the air filter of a car, you have a frame air filter as far as you know, but maybe it's Champion. And if somebody swaps it out tomorrow, you're not gonna know the difference. So white labeling is a wonderful way for us to go because it lets us have access to Lexuses worldwide sales force their support team everything.
But if we don't stay so far ahead of everyone else that they can replace us, then the next guy along is just the champion auto filter and we're out. And so for us, a key step is to integrate into their software that's so that they can sell us and it can be part of their other products. But then we have to build vendor lock in and the way we do vendor lock in is by making it very difficult for Lexus customers to switch. If we just make it hard for Lexus to switch, but somebody comes along with a better product or a cheaper product or something else. Lexus can swap us out, Alexis can go to the business unit and say, we like that company instead of Mike's company, Mike's gone there in. But by focusing on making ourselves extremely valuable to Lexuses customers. If something comes along, that looks better, Alexis has to have 10,000 meetings with 10,000 customers and say, yeah, we know that we've been asking you guys to use this stuff for two or three years, but we now want you to throw it all away and retrain on this new stuff and adapt your processes to this new stuff And repeat that meeting 10,000 times.
And if we've done a good enough job of making ourselves extremely valuable to Lexuses customers. Those conversations are impossible, even if someone comes along, he's better. And so one of the things that I do, I did it at the sun business. Although I didn't recognize that I was doing it deliberately did it with the Lexus business is make sure that Lexus customers can't live without us. And so vendor lock in is where it's at. Okay, after you've transferred your software to Lexus and integrated that into the Lexus ecosystem because it's huge. Do you continue to be involved with what used to be your product, the white label? We do. We continue to add features. One of the nice things about having access to Alexis's worldwide sales force was that we got consolidated customer feedback from all over the world. The Lexus sales people just the same way they would feedback feedback on lexisnexis products would provide feedback on our products. And then Lexus would come to us and say, hey, we want this additional feature.
They would come bearing checks. We would go away and return bearing software. And one of the things we learned about that early on was that our software in a certain sense, didn't necessarily mean anything at all. Lexisnexis is a multibillion dollar worldwide company and they're a multibillion dollar worldwide company. For one reason they sell access to legal databases and our software they licensed for, I don't know 30 to $50 a month per seat. You don't even get to tens of millions of dollars that way, Why do they care about us? They care about us Because one of the things we did is integrate into their software and help people use their legal database more. And so when we edited a citation and put a citation in correct form, we also hot link that into their database. And so anybody who just clicked on that link would go straight into their database. That's the sound of money. Anybody who did something called shepherd eyes, which is check to see that all their citations are still good law.
They haven't been overruled or anything. That's the sound of money. All of those things hit the Lexus database. Our software, it was good, the lawyers loved it and they were happy to have it. But the value to Lexus was we drove people to their multi billion dollar product and people who used our software, Lexus kept track. Lexus had a bunch of metrics used substantially more database. And so we made Lexus money, so that's the vendor lock in at that level. And we made Lexuses customers more efficient in a way that depended on us. So that's the vendor lock in at the second level. You were the gateway drug, yep. Exactly. Okay. So then what if one of the Lexus competitors were to come and approach you in the negotiations with Lexus, One of the things that they negotiated for is exclusivity. So exclusivity is just them having sole rights to sell our software and the reason we sell software is to make money.
And so if they give us as much or more money as we could make by going to a competitor then cool let's stay here. And so that was one of the one of the key things was exclusivity and we were happy to give it to them because they were happy to pay for it. So then let's talk about your current company. What prompted you to start before we talk about my company? Let me also tell you a couple of other things about I. p. at the 2nd company. Because as I mentioned in discussing the first company we didn't have any patents. We did all trade secret. But at the 2nd company we got fair number of patents, Half a dozen patents. Why why are we doing that? Lexus isn't going to steal our our stuff. They already have it. Why do you get a patent? And people will tell you you get a patent for two reasons and their two out of three right? You get them defensively to keep people from doing your stuff. You get them offensively so that you can sue people who do your stuff. Those are two. But for a small company neither one of those are worth very much at all.
And the reason is I don't have the money to sue anybody offensively. If somebody big enough comes after me, I'm going to bleed badly defending myself. Maybe I survived. Maybe I don't probably what happens is I wind up licensing it to them for enough money so that I don't have to go through this legal process. And so neither the offensive nor the defensive makes that much sense for a small business. Companies don't really buy small companies anymore. What they do is they buy all of their assets. And the reason is we're a small company and they don't know what stupid things we didn't know to avoid. Who knows what statements we've made that the FTC is going to come back to us against, who knows whether we thought it was a good idea to invest in a toxic waste dump. We don't know. But if they buy our corporation, they inherit all of those liabilities. So what they do instead is they buy all of our assets, you're selling to a larger company that has a huge mutant legal department and they can sue anyone they want. So suddenly these patents do get both offensive and defensive values that they didn't have for you as a small business.
But when we were selling to lexisnexis at one point, they specifically identified one of our patents and they said, we are looking forward to getting this. We know the first company we're gonna sue when we get it. And so that added value to our company, that's a huge tip, I think a lot of people don't realize the value that having a patent strategy like that can bring to your company and make your company actually more valuable for a potential acquirer so that it's the whole lesson about keeping the exit in mind as you're building your company. Yeah. Once I've decided that I'm not going to create a sales force and I'm not going to set up a support team. The only two options are we go out of business because our product is no longer useful or they get tired of paying royalties and they buy us so we walk out the door or go out feet first but we are not going to run this business long term. And so You look at two things 1 the vendor lock in to make sure they don't get rid of you until they buy you and to the exit, make sure they buy you okay.
Those are a lot of different lessons that you learn through your first two companies. So then what sort of things did you keep in mind as you were starting your third company? So with the 3rd company, we were in a little bit of a different regulatory and legal situation. The tax cuts and jobs act passed in the middle of the trump. Administration changed the definitions of patents and in particular, they said that a patent on something that you create in the ordinary course of business is just an ordinary business activity and it should be treated as an ordinary asset so that when you sell it, it is subject to ordinary income and so the strategy of getting patents with an eye towards selling them as capital assets and taking capital gains treatment needed to be reworked. But it turns out that the act defines those patents as the patents that you yourself create. Once I sell the patent to you, it becomes a capital asset to you. And so if I'm making tractors, those tractors are just ordinary items for me, when I sell them, I pay ordinary income on those.
But when you buy the tractor, that tractor is a capital asset to you. Well, so now we have to figure out business structures where it makes sense to be able to sell the patents early on so that they still have relatively low value and so their value and the amount that that we get for them is relatively low, so we pay ordinary income taxes on a small number, but yet we structure it in a way so that when those become useful capital assets to sell, we realized the value of selling those at capital asset prices with capital asset tax treatment. And so you can see a certain amount of personal and business growth on my part. Since I started out this podcast by saying, man, I always higher tax people because I'm terrible at that. And now we're talking about how to structure it up so that over many years I can realized for my company, the benefits of treating something that would ordinarily be ordinary income as capital gains income.
one of the other key changes in patent law has been the switch from first to invent, over the first to file. And when I got started, it was first to invent. And so we didn't really need to worry about getting a lot of patent protection early on because we invented when we invented. And if it became useful, we could patent it later. But we didn't have to worry about someone else stomping in and patenting our technology. And in fact, in one case, I applied for a patent, IBM applied for the same patent patent on the same technology and it turned out that I could document that I had started the invention process earlier. So I beat IBM and one of the justifications for first to file is it makes things very easy, right? You just look at the data on the filing problem solved? Well, that's great. But first of all, the fact that a small inventor beat IBM means that it wasn't that much of a burden to begin with. What's a burden now is that because it's first to file, I have to defensively file a bunch of patents that I otherwise wouldn't have to file and that may never have value, but I have to file them because I can't run the risk that someone else will file them first.
And so that's another thing that I have to consider in my companies is over filing for patent protection because I can't run the risk that someone else will get it. And I know that somewhere Russ is listening to this and he's shedding a tear because he just spent An earlier podcast saying most patents don't have value. You know, it has value when it's infringed, I can sell this for 100 bucks even if it's going to get me $200 million. You know, there are statistics that show that most patents never monetize and that was great back in the day of first to invent. Now we're in the time of first to file and what you're doing when you release a product is you're releasing proof of concept and proof of value and someone who looks at that and says, yeah, you have a really good product. I bet somebody's going to buy that. I'm going to file for patents on some of this technology and then you know what I'm gonna do. Well, let me tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not gonna go to the startup.
I'm gonna wait till that startup sells because that's what startups do and I'm gonna go to lexisnexis or IBM or whatever and show them all these patents that I have on the stuff that they just bought and then I'm gonna get a payday. It also goes back to what you were saying about build or buy if it makes more sense. And I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day of big companies simply going in and copying what a small company is doing. Maybe getting a lot of information about the small company and the and the product, but they simply just turn around and copy, just assuming that the small company is not gonna come back and fight them. And that is a byproduct of the first to file system in that the big companies with the deeper pockets are able to file early and if they don't file and if small companies don't have those deep pockets can't file, then the big company just comes in and just takes it. That's exactly right. And that warps the structure of the business in strange ways.
I can no longer just go into my garage, invent something marvelous. And as it starts to pay off backfill with the patents that I need. The fact that I need to get that protection early on means I need a lot of money early on. And so a bootstrapping option that I may have had before, I no longer have, I have to go out and get a level of investment that will let me get protection on a product I don't even have yet because if I wait first to file means I may have waited too long, ironically, first of file came along in something called the America Invents Act intended to promote innovation, but what it's actually promoted is you basically have to get permission to start a business now and you have to get a permission from investors or venture capitalists or whoever can give you enough money to get that protection. And it forces you to bring them in before you have established a lot of value. So it lets them claim a larger chunk of your business. And so first to file is not my friend.
It's not anybody's friend unless you're an investor or VC. But that's the environment in which we live. And so one of my responsibilities now is to structure my I. P. Strategy. So that first of file doesn't break me patents don't surface as I'm in the process of selling my company and cut the value of my sale in half or eliminate it altogether. These are all things that the founder has to consider in terms of I. P. Now. And so that's part of the joy of the 3rd company rather than a first company. Okay so that's that's one of the things that we learned. Another thing is copyrights. We have suddenly become much more aware of intellectual property issues relating to copyright. And in particular we have to be careful about how we hire our contractors because we don't want to have them accidentally become co authors. And co author as you are well aware is a legal term of art and it means whoever drew up the contract. Really messed up bad because a co author has an undivided interest in the property.
And what that means is that the co author can license that can sell that interest can do all sorts of things that I had hoped to do for myself. It turns out that one of the things that has happened over the last and years is that it is no longer sufficient to hire a contractor and say that everything the contractor does is a work for hire, having an employee work as a work for hire, that's fine contractor who does work for hire. However, may still be treated as a co author. So when you're writing the contract, you have to make sure to say you put in the work for hire language. Everything you do is work for hire. But then you say to the extent that what you did is not considered a work for hire. We own that anyway. And my recollection is that my most excellent lawyer, Peter Edwards at Fairfield and Woods wrote that language more elegantly than we get all that stuff anyway, but that's what it means.
We can no longer rely on the work for hire doctrine. And so just staying up on all the changes in law. I have said many times over the course of the 2nd and 3rd company, I don't know how anybody runs a company who hasn't been to law school because the legal risks that I just blindly wandered through in the first company, you know, God protects uh dogs, Children and fools and we didn't hire any dogs or Children. But there was a fool in that first company that I was being looked over, I can tell you that much. So I kind of try to take a more methodical approach in the 2nd 3rd companies and let God deal with someone else. So this whole work for hire and co authorship issue, is this something that you would have known if your attorney didn't bring it to your attention? Or is there some really hard story involved in how you learned it? There was a potentially hard story in the way that I learned it. But fortunately, my attorney Peter Edwards had already known that and had already included it in the contract and you know, hadn't gone through our independent contractor contract, line by line and pointed out everything.
But when I went back and looked at that to protect myself against the potentially sad story, it turned into a happy story. Peter had us covered. And later, Michael Schwab, Schwab covered us again and further. And so I know to look for that and I know certain steps to take in certain steps to not take in order to avoid legal ambiguity in that area. But if you have not had that conversation with your lawyer, call up your lawyer because even if your contract has the right language, if you engage in certain conduct, then that may negate that language. And so you just just want to chat with your lawyer, if you haven't talked with him recently. Catch up, see what he's doing, how's he getting through Covid, what should you do about the work for hire doctrine? You know, all the things you talk about. Yeah, it's a good legal counsel. Even for a legal tech company can become very important. Legal counsel is critical and the thing about both Peter and Micah is that they are also good technologists.
They don't write code but they understand technology and they understand business. Peter was a lawyer for I think 30 years then a v. c. for 10 to 12 years, then came back and was a lawyer for another 10 years when he became my lawyer. Micah used to be, I think that Arthur Andersen but one of the, one of the consulting companies and so they're both business experts. And one thing I would say is never, ever, never, never, ever, never, never hire a lawyer hire a counselor who happens to have a law degree and tons of experience in law, but their ability to counsel me on business decisions has been just absolutely crucial. That's great. So to wrap up what is, so I know that you are in the process of kind of repeating what you did with your last company, which is essentially trying to sell your current company to uh another enterprise company large entity. So what are the things some things that you are doing now that you didn't do before?
I'm looking directly at the characteristics of how those companies make money at my previous two companies. I looked at how a user of my product could benefit. And so I was I was looking at it very much from the standpoint of how I as someone running a company selling a product should structure that product. Now, I know that I am not going to sell this product, I'm not going to sell to end users. I am going to sell this to a large corporation so I can get access to the worldwide sales force and everything else. And so what that means is my first order of business is to make them money. And so if in my second company, my most recent one, if I had thought that before approaching lexisnexis, I would have added features that Lexus later paid us to add. Because I would have focused on how do I drive people to use a legal database. And then I would have gone to Lexus and said you make billions of dollars, let me increment that by a certain amount. Not this $10 or $20 million dollar software product that you can get that's not gonna buy you guys lunch.
How can I add to your multi billion dollar business. And so I'm doing the same thing with this company, I'm looking at the characteristics of my buyers and I am figuring out how I can go to them and say if you get this software, this is how you are going to make tons of money by the way. The reason you're gonna make tons of money is you'll be able to sell it to users and this is what it will do for the users and that's why your users are gonna be happy. And every time your users get happy, they're gonna get happy in a way that causes them to use more of your multi billion dollar product. And so it's that two level vendor lock in, lock in the people we sell to directly lock in the people that they sell to. I think the the lesson here is really understand who your true customer is, yep sometimes even for software companies, it's not the user, it's the acquirer that it's going to be making more money because they are acquiring your product, yep, your customer is whoever writes you a check And the fact that you've got 100,000 lawyers out in the world using your software.
And I only talked to one guy, I talked to Dave once a week and then once a quarter he sends me a check. Those 100,000 guys are probably nice people and and I hope that they're doing good legal work. But the thing that keeps me up at night and focuses me every day is making Dave happy. Thank you Mike I learned a lot in this conversation. Well thank you for having me. I appreciate it. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the novel and non obvious podcast. Our guest today has been mike Boettcher of script to L. L. C. Feel free to send us comments or suggestions for startup and I. P. Related topics you'd like us to discuss on this podcast at info at Patton's Integrated dot com. Our producer is Joel Davis of analog digital. Our marketing specialist is Tim Sprinkle of Layup content. Our theme music used with permission is the Workday Takata from A Life In a Day, composed by Sherry's lighter and performed by Michelle Stanley and flute. Jeff le Quattro and guitar and yours Julian cello. Here's our obligatory disclaimer. The content of this podcast is informational only and not intended to be legal advice novel and non obvious podcast is a production of patents integrated and all rights are reserved.