Hello everyone and welcome to the Spirit of EQ podcast. My name is Eric Pennington. And joining me as always, is Jeff East from the Spirit of EQ. Hi Jeff, how are you? Hi ERic and all our listeners. I'm doing fine. Today's episode is on anxiety and EQ.
Spirit of EQ helps shape and guide the road ahead for individuals, leaders, teams and organizations striving to realize their full potential through emotional intelligence. Spirit of EQ is a coaching and consulting company that assists individuals and businesses to reach their full potential by developing emotional intelligence in business managers and leaders recognize the value of training to develop leadership skills. What they may not realize is that those skills are far more effective when they pay attention to not only performance, but also to people. Emotional intelligence is a crucial skill because people drive performance and emotions drive people.

So Jeff, you know, we have spoken about this a few times, I think I remember we did at a conference a couple of years ago on a break and it was something that I, I didn't know uh impacted you personally. And then we've talked about it pre recording and after some of our guests and you had mentioned that you'd feel like, hey, I can, I think I want to talk about this on one of the episodes. So I was really excited in a good way to, to have you talk about it, but what was kind of the catalyst for you wanting to talk about it on, on one of the episodes because I know pre covid a lot of people were dealing with with anxiety uh in my case panic attacks and I'm sure that there are more and more people that are dealing with it. So I wanted to talk about that specifically. And I also want to let people know it's okay to deal with an illness like this. It's not because you're bad or wrong, it's because there's something happening uh sometimes you can't control. Yes. And I know that uh we live in a culture that has so much who won, who lost, who's ahead, who's behind, who's okay, who's not okay?

I've always found it ironic in America, right as where we have our perspective is that everybody knows everybody is not okay. Exactly. So it's almost like, is that, what was that? It wasn't a fairy tale as a fable about the emperor where there's nowhere close or something. It's like, that's what I feel like we are as a culture, we're just, we're walking around thinking that we're dressed to all get out, but were actually wearing no clothes. Exactly. I totally agree with that. So when you first, um sort of knew you were having the issue, what did your world look like at that time, at that time, especially, I mean, I can think of the exact moment that things started happening was uh I didn't have any big stresses, there was nothing uh harmful going on in my life at that time. I was work was going well. I had a lot of responsibility, but I was I was handling that, enjoyed what I was doing. Personal life was fine. Um I was going into prisons with the ministry, I do into a maximum security prison, you know, all those things that, you know, traveling a lot uh that you would think would be stressful for a lot of people weren't for me.

So really, I don't think we've ever came to the exact cause of the reason for this to happen for me to start having these panic attacks. But uh they just came out of the blue for me and that happens to some people. Uh basically what happened was I was, yeah, I got up a little bit early, I had a small share group, men, little uh group that I met with every Tuesday morning and I was getting ready to go to that and I was in the shower and I felt like I was having a heart attack, I couldn't breathe. I ended up on the front porch of our condo in my robe dripping wow, because I had, I just had to get out of the shower right, because if I'm not mistaken, panic attacks have similarities as far as the physical manifestation as a heart attack. Right? Exactly. Um so I was able to get myself together finally get the shampoo rinsed out of my hair uh and made it to work and my good friend adam um that I work with I worked with at that time was also an E.

M. T. Volunteer E. M. T. And he knew there was something wrong. So he came to me we had a good relationship, we could go to each other for this kind of thing which I hope everybody has somebody like that. But he came to me and I told him what was going on and because you're not having a heart attack you're having a panic attack. A bad panic attack. He goes you don't know how many times we end up transferring people to the hospitals as an E. M. T. Where they think they're having a heart attack and it is a panic attack. They've never had one before. So at that time did you have much knowledge of what panic attacks were all about? No I didn't. Um Mhm. The only time I really thought about a panic attack was when Tony soprano would have one on the sopranos because that's why he started seeing dr Melfi interesting so I'm not in the mob people so don't worry about that. So I went to my family doctor and she she talked with me, she gave me uh it's called Ativan.

It's a mild version of Valium. It doesn't last as long which which would help me. Then I went and saw a therapist and uh I mean this was was bad when if I was driving and I got stuck at a long traffic light, I would want to get out of the vehicle and just walk away because I couldn't move in the vehicle. Um It was, it was just hard for me to do anything like that. I mean, it put my life on hold. So how did your you're sort of your family and friends respond when, I mean, obviously you had to tell some of some of those, if not all of them about what you were dealing with. What was that like? Well, the family was very supportive, you know, it's hard to understand if you've not went been through it, but they knew it was something that was going on with me. Um My I was very involved as a co leader of a small mission, kind of a church? And the people at the church were very understanding, you know, I'm probably not gonna be here for a little while.

Uh my work worked with me and gave me some extra time off to deal with it. So I did have good support that way, interesting. That's good. That's good. And I know that, you know, in the age we live in, some people have some downright fear of disclosing or admitting is not the right way to to say, at least in my head, but to come forth and say, hey, I'm dealing with this problem. Um Did you find yourself hesitant to talk about it too at first, but, you know, talking with my doctor uh seeing the therapist the first time my friend adam um no, I was able to uh go, okay, this is this is an issue I'm going to have to work with and I am not going to be able to do anything about this if I can, if I try to continue as normal because you just can't. Uh and I like how you said admit is not a good way to describe it, because admitting means you've done something wrong and that's not what we're talking about when somebody is dealing with with anxiety or panic attacks or any kind of a mental illness, it's there's nothing wrong with you, there's just something that um isn't working quite right needs adjustment or something like that.

I I found um in my own journey I've not had and I haven't dealt with anxiety or panic attacks, but I know that when I did my first journey through therapy um it was interesting to me because I came from a background that said, you know, you don't go, you don't go see a therapist that you just don't do that. However, uh as time went on and my growth and support of my my family, you know, it was one of the things that it was, it made total sensitive, where I'm getting or what I'm getting to is ah I did see the difference and how people treated me when it when it came out or was put out there that I did that and sometimes I would do, I would I'd want to talk about it because I kind of have felt like, you know, now I finally understand what some of my friends uh in the past that told me and I want to get out there and say this is my brain, this is I need to address the health of my brain here, so I'm I want to come on out with this, and I look at it like um if you've ever watched uh A race car team work on their race car, it's a very complicated thing and they have their tuning it on it all the time.

Your brain is a billion times more complicated than a race car. So 18 need tuned up. And yes, and that's Jeff, you know, I know we've talked about it many many times. The thing that I really wish we would grow up and do is not stigmatize this thing as if somehow we've got some real strong data that tells us we should stigmatize it, you know, And I say it that way, because I and I'm asking you about how what kind of response you got a little bit about my own is that there's some people that don't have that, they don't have families that are supported, they don't have exact, they don't have a workplace that understands or cares and they find themselves isolated, I know you can't say what it would have been like, but the isolation, if you didn't have anyone, I mean, what do you say to those people who say, hey Jeff, that's great for you man. But I don't have anyone, I would tell them the internet is not beyond in doll and solve all problems.

Find a support group, there are tons of support groups out there, find a good support group with people that you can meet with. That. It's just like a they're going to understand what you're going through because they're going, they're going through it in the shared experience. And the thing is, I think with what we're talking about is um, it's just like alcoholism, it's not, you're not going to reach a point and say I am cured. I don't have to worry about it anymore. So it's a sharing experience. It's not, it's a present and a future, not just the past. Well. And I think the more we can look at our brain health as I alluded to again with that lens of curiosity and not judgment. I think it allows us to for lack of a better way of saying it, I, and it's not mental health, but I have a brother who is an addict and one of the things that I used to talk to him about, you need to own your addiction and that would make him recoil because he thought, well if I admit that or if I if I am, if I, if I say that, I own it, that means I'm bad or that I have a problem.

And, and I used to try to, I can't do that anymore. But I used to try to, I said, here's what I mean. I don't mean own it. Like you, you walk around like it's something around your neck that points to you having this issue disease, whatever you wanna call it. I said, it's you own again saying, you know what, I need to tackle this, I need, I need to take full ownership because I would think of it in terms of ownership is I have some things I need to do to take care of this. It's like if somebody has a heart condition or has cancer, if they don't own that, they're not going to go get the treatment, they're not going to make the changes they have in their life. So they own it, okay, I have heart condition. So I have to do these things to stay alive. I'm now owning that. Not because I'm bad, not because I've done something wrong. It's because it is and now I have to deal with it. And as I want to say to the audience, uh, drug addiction is not the same thing that's not what we're talking about.

I'm using that Jeff primarily to go the owning of your problem. Whatever it may be, it may not be mental. It may not be addiction. It, it might be, hey, I have a problem performing in my workplace. The way that my boss expects me to, my company, right? You know, it could be as simple as owning the fact that your card needs work and you don't do it. And where do you end up stranded on the freeway? And I guess from the perspective, getting back to your journey. Um did you find, was there anything you that said, hey, um I'm cured. I'm good. I now I can I can just forget this ever happened or did you find were you able to accept that? No, I I I I knew that this was going to be an ongoing thing. Working with the therapist. Uh and if I can remember, I'll send Brett a link. I got to get the name right. I think it was called the anxiety and phobia Workbook. OK.

Or maybe the other one trillion show notes. Okay. Yeah, if I can get that to him. Um No, I I knew this was going to be something I had to work with because it was going to be a process like when I first met with the therapist, we talked about some things I could do and one of the places that would set off a panic attack was going into like a large store with a bunch of people in a bunch of commotion. So one of my first assignments was, there's a walmart, not too far from where we live was to walk to the back of the walmart and back out and I couldn't do it at first. That sounds something simple. But you have to do those things and you know there are other things that he wanted me to do to keep pushing it and then learning. And I think this is where the EQ part comes in. I hadn't really been that deep into the field of EQ at that time. I wish I would've, it would've made me adjust quicker then then it took me. But now I see what I was doing was E. Q. But I didn't know what that was, wasn't what it was right because I have to constantly look at what are the things that could cause one of these.

Um as you know if if it's in some place where I don't have control of movement uh in an airplane like I said the truck, you know if I stopped my truck and traffic and it was a long light and there was 100 cars around. So it was things like that and it wasn't too long a few months after uh this first started happening, I thought I was doing very well. I went to my barber and this is the old style barber where you keep track of who came in before you and after you and you know you just wait your turn while you're reading the magazines and stuff And I realized I'm next. And then my mind went to, well, you're gonna have to sit there perfectly still with that. You know why he's doing this and one started. So I I had to get up and pretend to go to the bathroom and let the person skip ahead of me to get that under control. So I I constantly have to be aware of the things that can set it off. You know what's interesting? I know, you know, the proper term of that we're human beings almost advocate if we could change beams into becoming because, you know, Jeff when I think about what you described, I don't see it from the lens that, oh, Jeff you have a problem because when I when I hear problems, I hear something needs to be fixed.

You know, you go back to use the car analogy, you know, if if there's something wrong with the anti lock brakes, you take it to a mechanic to fix it so that it doesn't cause that problem anymore. But I think sometimes, but the thing with the car is next week, it could be something real injection. So it's a constant, constantly, it's active and it's and it's dynamic in nature, right? And I think of it in terms of, I know when I look back on my life and the things and especially when I look back at that time when I went to therapy, I I found that after going through that I was a better person, not because I got it fixed because I still have tendencies toward what I went to see that therapist for, it's just my activity with uh him is not as it was four years ago, right? But here's what's interesting And this was in the, probably the mid part of 2020.

Um I remember I could I could see those warning signs if you will, that I had seen the three years previous and this is the power of EQ, right? Because at that time when I went to therapy, I wasn't in EQ as deep as as as now, but I kind of began this process of going identifying, okay, recognize the patterns eric recognize the patterns, okay, when you start to feel this, does it have any connection to that? And if it's that, what did you do that was effective the last time. Um which I think is again one of the beauties of how our brains work for recognizing patterns. So my typical go to is, if I'm, if I'm seeing those warnings, I'm seeing that pattern, I'll go to my wife and I'll say, hey, this is kind of where I'm at, this is where I'm been traveling, do you think it's what maybe I encountered before and I am I should I go and look at talking to my therapist again, if she says, well let's talk it through and then it's a term as well.

No, I probably don't need to, I probably need to do something that's more self care or it might be maybe okay then I have another, I have like two sets of counselors. I have my, my pastor who is also a friend and adviser coach mentor. He's a lot of those things, he can give me that cursory gut check if it turns out that he gives me that gut check and it turns out that you know what, um, this is a deeper thing man. You probably ought to go see, boom, that's my go to, I throw all that out Jeff to say, um, is that consistent with what you've seen maybe in your journey or that that, that you're active in managing and owning that care. In my case. I just, I just have to be aware of situations like I mentioned before. I, I do ministry in a maximum security prison, which is very confining, very locked down. Right? Um, we're one step down from a Supermax where we, where I go here in Ohio and I can remember the first time driving up to the prison.

I could feel a little bit of this, but then I recognized it and I went, okay, I've been in and out of this prison hundreds of times over the however many years it's fine. So I was able to control that if I hadn't been paying attention to those feelings started, I would have let them just go and go and go and uh they don't like it in a prison if you start running around in a panic, gets on their nerves a little bit, I was gonna say, I can imagine that that kind of tees off the a little bit of an emergency and there's guys up in a tower with a rifle, so you just don't want to do, so I want to do something like that. Are joke is if you do run zigzag, right? But anyway, and I want to clarify for our audience as well that you know, this show is not about giving you therapy, right? Um We are not licensed clinicians and by no stretch, this show is just about our experiences with our brain health and it happens to be that Jeff today is talking about anxiety.

One of the things that I think, you know, if you consider somebody Jeff who is fairly stable, right? And maybe not in a place where they need a clinician, I found E. Q. Uh and and the competencies and the disciplines and the and the um the education part of it very very effective for me. Um I I mentioned that obviously about recognizing patterns. Were there any other, not other, were there specific confidence, these competencies that you kind of found to be helpful for you in that well, and you know, if I was debriefing somebody and going over the confidence, he's the first one I would talk about is understanding your emotions. What are, you know, pay attention to what you're feeling. Uh, and you know that that anxiety emotional spectrum or however you want to say it goes from, I just feel a little bit, this isn't quite right to terror.

So where am I at on there and then really pay attention to what it was or what, what is going on? So, if I'm feeling a little bit anxious, oh, I've got three things I have to do that has to get done tonight. Okay, I can do with that. That's not a problem. But then if I explore and I go, oh, this is this is going towards one of the triggers that I know can trigger me, then I can take control of that and do what I need to do? So, recognize our understanding my own emotions, what they're telling me. You already mentioned, recognizing patterns. You know, it's basically learning a new uh, neural pathway we've talked about that. I don't know how many times, recognizing understanding consequences, consequential thinking, making sure that, you know, I remember that if I don't really take control of this right now, the consequence can be this, you know, going into a full blood, you know, full attack or whatever. So, I'm gonna stop you there. You're talking about the consequences. Were there any situations where you kind of found yourself being frustrated by what was happening to you.

Yeah, at first, because, you know, I'm working on this and I would still, like I said, I didn't make it to the back of the walmart the first time. That was frustrating. Uh the thing with as silly as it sounds going to the barbershop, those are frustrating, it's not like, you know, somebody's locking me in a little steel box with some air holes, you know, I'm sitting in a barber's chair with a that cape thing around my neck, you know what's to be scared of, but whatever is not tuned right in my brain takes that and blows it up into you can't move now, you know, So it's those are the frustrating things and I was still frustrated that I still had to deal with this, but now I I've come to understand that as long as I do these steps, everything's fine. Yes. And I I think about it in light of, remember how I was 20 years ago, if I can say it like that without feeling tremendously old, I used to do the typical, at least what I in the world that we live in is when I say typical, that'd be careful.

Um that idea of I'm fine, you encounter the problem, you see that there's something not going the way that it should and you just I'm going to push right through. I don't I don't have an issue you feeling, OK? Yeah, I'm fine, you know, that kind of thing that ever, ever is a long time. I know, but you ever find yourself in that place with it probably at the beginning, but as I've come to understand more, as I gotten a lot older, uh I I start understanding the, the detriment of these things that can lead to that as an example. You know, I've learned to you know, understand my feelings and do all that. And one of the things that is medically good is I used to deal with acid reflux and some ulcers. I haven't had to take any medicine for that for probably five years, interesting because that's, you know, I'm now recognizing that stress when I start and I am able to get that under control without getting to the point where all those stomach, you know, all that stuff that happens that causes Absolutely.

And uh so that's just one example of, you know, we're a holistic being, We're not just one part. And I'd like to mention one more competency, I think we need to remember empathy, self empathy. Okay, I know that's you know, I kind of harp on that one because I know so many in the hope that, you know, I've dealt with not having any self empathy and you need you need to have empathy. You need to give yourself a break. You need to remember I am a human becoming I'm a work in progress. So give myself a break. Part of that too, I think goes hand in hand with the idea about sort of the self accountability, the self responsibility. We have so many folks out there Jeff who wear masks. Mhm They put on really good shows and not the Covid mask, not the covid mess. We were talking about the mask of one soul or personality, that kind of thing, Right?

And we put on a good show, we give Oscar worthy performances at work at home and community and on and on and on. And I can tell you from experience as someone who I gave many Oscar worthy performances in my career when I was in corporate America. I think one of the biggest things that you can do to help yourself be ready to tackle. Whatever you may be dealing with, take off the mask. And somebody said, well, you knew the place that I worked if you knew my family, if you knew and this is where it gets kind of tough. The people that really love you are not interested in a mask Most of the time. I'm not saying all the time, you know, 100 because I don't know that most of the people that need a mask don't really care about you, they're there for the show, they're there for the party and when you're not there anymore, they'll be looking around for someone else who's wearing a mask, like we talked about, I was just extremely lucky that I had a lot of my gosh, start surrounding of people that understood this was something I needed a community.

Yeah, very I had a very strong community at this time and I and I still do but well, and I think to your point, Jeff, I'm glad that you when when we talked a little bit about what what do you do if you don't have that the, the support group, Because you may find that there could be someone who lives 1000 miles away from you and almost has an identical path that you do. Um and I think there's something very powerful about realizing that you're not alone. You're not you're not the only one who's experiencing and dealing with it. Yeah, It's not about getting advice to cure yourself, it's about having that person that you can share with. Yeah, because that action is part of the process of curing. Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. So you gave me a quote offline and I want to read it and I'd like to get your thoughts okay, can I want to say a couple of things real quick one do if you if you are feeling we're talking about anxiety today, but if you are knowing that you're dealing with some kind of mental issue, get a hold of the proper person to help you, you know, find a therapist find if you know your past or find a good friend, some you don't be doing it alone and if you have, you know, if you want to shoot me some questions about this in my path.

Like I said, I'm eric said it too. I'm not a therapist. I I I won't do that. But if you want to just talk about it, I'm perfectly willing to do that. And in the show notes, you have Jeff's email as well as some links to some resources that are national in nature that you can reach out to. If you find yourself in that that kind of place, here's the quote. Mental illness is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of trying to be strong for too long. The first thing right out of the gate, that's a great quote. But talk a little bit about that. We we kind of talked about it already. Mental illness has the stigma of your week broken uh unworthy person there there's something wrong with you. People wouldn't say that about you if you had cancer or you broke your leg. Okay? They wouldn't say that. So it's not about being weak. I think what causes a lot of people to deal with this is they try to be strong and uh gutted out muscle through it however you want to say it and that's not what you want to do.

And Jeff, I can tell you that fits me to a t when I ran and hit my wall. I felt like I was superman who had just been introduced to Kryptonite. I I mean I could no longer lift £1,000, I could no longer leap over a building in a single bound. It was it was I was I was weak, I couldn't do it. And and the strength comes from understanding that when you understand that, that for me to be the strength that I need to have is the strength to own it to do something with it. Not let it control ruin affect my life in a negative way, chances are like we've said you you'll probably never ever be totally cured of whatever it is but you need to develop the tools and it takes strength practice to develop those tools and use those tools. Two get yourself back where you want yourself to be. So that makes me think of another thing. Um And I want to let you continue on some insights on the quote.

Are there some things I was just talking to our producer Brett before we recorded today and I I use our company spirit of EQ uses social media for education and announcements the whole drill but on a personal level um I didn't I didn't delete my facebook and twitter account but I removed the apps from all of my devices and I won't go into the reasons of why I did that that's another show. However what it did for me is it did free up and it did my mind no longer goes down certain paths that it had before, so to me that was a brain health decision. Right, okay. And what I what I mean by that Jeff uh a brain health decision as though I didn't do it for brain health purposes.

It delivered a result from my brain health that I really didn't think about at the time and now I'm I'm grateful for it. So what do you think are some things that might be threats? Well I I want to go a little bit further with with what you said about social media to me when you say social media that puts me in the mind of this is what we used to do it at the bar or the restaurant hanging around with your friends and just talking about stuff. It's not professional certified in foreign of media. It's social media, it's eight million different people's opinions and yes you can get very good stuff from it but you're also going to get a lot of stuff that is uh yeah and I was I was telling Brett, you know, it's like I keep up on birthdays um I'll glance at, you know the family photos of a friend whose daughter got married or something and I send you a meme about bass playing of course, that's always at the top of the list. I always I always pay attention notifications from Jeff because it will be something in a reference which actually your last one on Mount Rushmore with three of the members of rush was great.

Um but I digress. So um the thing about that um I can't see myself going back to doing it the way I did before because my brain is thanking me for doing that. Um Are there I mean you mentioned, I mean we've mentioned here, social media could be a danger and it's not us saying don't look at social media, please understand everyone. Our decisions are our decisions and and in this case it was it was an individual decision. Me Jeff is not a part of it. Um Are there any other things that you would say are kind of the hey, be careful because that potentially could set you back. Yeah. I think if all you listen to is news radio, all you watches the news channels. Ah they're not designed to give you peace and calmness in your brain. They're designed to make you anxious so that you keep watching to see what the next bad thing is. And so well said Jeff just pay attention to what you're feeling when you're watching that are listening to that on facebook.

I've got some facebook friends that I've deleted because and they're they're on both sides of the spectrum but I don't need to hear that. You know, I already know what you're saying. I've heard it a million other places. I just don't need to keep yeah, having that regret. I bring this up and I know we're getting close to the end of our episode today. Um I I bring that up because um you know, I I found that I I've been a self assassin at times. I've I've allowed myself to go down rabbit holes for entertainment or whatever, thinking that hey, you know, there's nothing wrong with this, but the reality is for the amount of your consumption, uh it's doing you harm and um I think it's very important when we go through which I consider my process, I should say the process I took of that evaluation. Okay noticing what I'm feeling. What are the patterns going to my wife, going to my next level of counselor and then maybe my therapist, my process.

I think there's also a responsibility. I have to go, okay eric are you doing anything that's setting you backwards? Are you involved in anything that maybe is making it hard for your brain? Would your brain say to you? Hey eric, if I could just get you to stop that things could be a little better. It goes back to the word we use a million times. Have some curiosity. Yeah, I have some curiosity. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I'd like to say one more thing about this. You have to remember that every moment that you've lived up until right now, right? When you're hearing this is part of your past and it's what built you into what you are. So don't look negatively on the past, look at it as part of what built you into what you are. And if part of that path includes some kind of, you know, me dealing with the panic disorder that's put me where I am, and it's it's made me more aware of things. So I don't want to say embrace it.

But that's kind of what I'm saying. Well, it's who you are because, you know, I started thinking for a moment, okay, well, what if I'm that person says Jeff, that's what makes me a really a train wreck or a bad person or I'm not good enough. Whatever, what I would say is that no matter how much negativity, no matter how many problems you've had historically, looking back, if you can embrace, I'm breathing now, I can start something now. And I'm not talking about, you got to do 180° turn, right. I'm not talking about you've got to change overnight. What I'm talking about. If you don't like what you've become, try a very small thing to change it, you'll determine what small looks like. And I can almost guarantee it. And the only reason I'm saying I can't guarantee is because I'm not God. So, but here's my thing, Jeff and I think you you would agree if I make a small change.

If I decide, okay, I'm gonna take eric and Jeff's advice, I'm just gonna do, I'm gonna try one small thing and I do it consistently Over 2, 3 weeks will change happen, Change will happen. I mentioned that I do prison ministry and I said for the last 15 years or so, it's been a southern Ohio correctional, Lucasville, it's famous for horrific riot. But if you can imagine the stress these guys are under and through us coming in, you know, we, we go in and we talk about our faith, but more so we talk about giving, giving these in this case, it's a men's prison, but these residents tools to use and there are people in there, they're never going to get out of prison. Their sentences such that are probably more mentally healthy than anybody I know on the outside because they've, they've embraced what they've done.

They know that that, but that's what got them there and probably got them to where they're, they're now, they still feel bad about what they've done. I'm not saying that the guilt part, I think in some ways, if you're talking about, there's, they've kind of been released from the mental prison, the mental prison, they're more been released from the mental prison, thank you than we are on the outside. And there's, you know, 15 steeled wars and, and what razor. Wire and guys with towers and they're more free than we are on the outside, sometimes that's, that's a very powerful reality, really powerful. Um, so I'm sorry, Jeff, you just, you just struck a chord there and I'm like, wow, those who are on the outside and are quote free may indeed be more imprisoned than those. I have learned things from these guys on the inside. Yeah, yeah, wow Well everyone, this brings us to the end of this episode, really enjoyed having you and we look forward to the next time that we're together, Take care.

Hi everyone, this is eric Pennington with the Spirit of EQ, I'm not introducing a new episode today, I'm here to tell you some things that might help you, Jeff, you're with me as always. So how do people get in touch with us? Well, the best way is just send us an email at info at Spirit of eq dot com. That's awesome. Jeff, I was also thinking about reviews and I'm notoriously bad at asking for them. So reviews on all the platforms, wherever you get your podcasts, you think that'd be good. I think that would be great because one that will help us learn how to make better ones and it's always good for us. So we're not the perfect podcast host, we're close all right, but we want your feedback, we want your feedback, but it also might let us know a new subject. Hey, we need to dig deeper into that. So let us know what you think. Cool, we really appreciate that as always to there is social media linkedin facebook and we also have a youtube channel, Those also have mechanisms or options for you to be able to leave a comment alike of those kind of things.

I just want to make sure that you know how to get in touch with us, right Jeff. Right. We appreciate you all. Thank you. Yeah, Yeah.