all right away. Welcome back to another episode of textual healing. E. I am your host, Mallory Smart and I am joined with a really kick ass guest, The founder himself of neutral space. Give us a shout out. Hey, um, it's cool to be doing. This is my first podcast, so well, you get you get break the suit. Is it really your first podcast? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Um, I did a twitch interview with Zack Smith on. I love him. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's the best. Um, that was really good. Uh, but I feel kind of shitty. I said neutral space, But I know it's neutral spaces, but it's all right. I mean, uh, we'll see what happens

with it. Is bean asleep for about six months now? So, uh, did that was mauled in house for a while. Like last year. I think they're just kind of like put stuff on pause. Yeah, I think, um, I feel like these projects have thio directions and one of them is thio. Allow them thio. Keep developing by bringing your lots of people. So you have, you know, the modern big. You have websites like Hobart, which have a bunch of different editors that come and go. And the nervous breakdown has, I think, like, 15 or 20 or something. And so they managed to kind of persistence through congregation. And then I think the other side is eventually these smaller projects with less people have to take breaks. So yeah, yeah, especially when you have day jobs and everything to do. You have one s Oh, yeah. So I have, ah, have a proper day job now, But

during neutral spaces, I was a PhD student, which kind of allowed me. Yeah, and it was definitely the space of education and being able to kind of plan my in workday that allowed me toe take time out of the data, edit people's pages or work on a new project or whatever. Yeah, so I did not say your name in the intro that was purposeful. It's because when talking about this, uh, and I don't know if you listen to the podcast. Last night when Andy and I were discussing our future guests, he and I pronounced your name differently. He said, Joko mo I said, Giacomo, you win. Andi is not here, Thio, um he'll listen to the episode. There s so it's a knit Italian name. My grandma is waas Italian. I mean, she's still Italian, but she's dead. So, um yeah. So I've got this complicated

Italian name that has the jazz sound with the G spelling and, um yeah, school register. The reason I immediately felt like I knew how to pronounce it is because my nephew was almost named Giacomo. His father's Italian Sicilian, But yeah, um, it's good. Um, yeah, I think the funniest was when Kevin had a podcast recently inside my name. Wrong. And Zach ripped into him. And Kevin didn't realize, um, how did he pronounce? You know, I think I think he went for the gear. Cuomo, I think with the hard G. So God, I did it. I love how Americans pronounce things. We all seem to mess it up somehow, not dissing other people. But it is funny. I mean, to be fair, I've had Geico Mo, probably every year of my life from various people. Yeah, but, you know, I live in the UK, so I don't think we're any

less culture than the U. S. So, you know Yeah, Primor culture. There but I'll straight away from politics a little bit. I think you're giving us too much credit. Maybe. Who knows? So give me a little bit more background. Where in the UK are I'm currently living in Liverpool? Um, I've been here for four years. I moved up here with my partner Holly, when I got my PhD. Um, but for people who know the UK better they'll tell that I'm not from Liverpool because they don't have a scarce accent. I grew up in London, kind of moved around a bet e was gonna say You definitely have a little bit more of ah, softer e s. That would be the best way to say it. Yeah. I mean, in the UK, I have what's called a Southern accent. But obviously for you guys in Southern Accent is e thinking itself. So, um, you know what

? I honestly, for most Americans, you could be British, Welsh, Australian. We think you all sound the same. I I've I've done a couple loops of the U. S. And gone to different states. Um, the kind of most far reaching one was back in 2000 and 12. Me and a friend got e Don't know if they still do them, but Greyhound bus plus, um, the Greyhound bus is have a bus pass and you pay, like, 200 bucks and you're allowed to get on any bus you like for two months. Um, I've always been afraid of Greyhound Bus is just because they look really dirty. But I've done I don't know if it's a thing anymore. Minibus. They have a very similar thing. The cheaper. Yeah, Um, yeah, The greyhound Busses were some of them had some interesting conversations. I had some interesting conversations on some of them, but, like, I didn't know that I was supposed to think they were dirty. So

we kind of book the whole thing from the UK on. It was great because we had, like, no money and we'd use the Greyhound bus Is is like the motel room for the night. So we'd finish up in a city and realized we had nowhere to stay. So we just get on a bus that took around eight hours to get somewhere else. Andi, you'd end up somewhere new in the morning. Yeah, it's so interesting that, like you'd choose to do a bus thing. Most people I know who aren't from America the very first thing they want to do when ex exploring it is Ah, road trip. Like renting a car. Yeah, Yeah, I did it right in the middle of being a student. And I think I think I spent about 800 bucks in two months. It was pretty cheap. I had a single rucksack on my Yeah, so it was. But it was really good. And we did a bunch of hitching way. I think we hitched ALS the way down the West Coast. I think it got it

. Got a bit tough in the kind of ring around L A. People were less likely to pick us up, but then we had someone take us the whole way. So, um, to be fair, l a it's a little bit more snobby. And also, they have a history of serial killers. They're taught, like don't don't pick up the stranger. And also, by that point, I probably looked more strange as the zoo time of the trip went on, but, I mean, it really depends on the year, though. Yeah. I mean, if we're talking like in the height of hipster dumb. You probably looked just like everybody else. Yeah, actually, that that's a good point. Although I I've always had a beard and not just the mustache to say I'm kind of And he ever got halfway to the hipster thing. Are you rocking? Just a mustache now? No, no, I've I've never done the mustache. I've actually I'm under strict orders from Holly to not shave my beard off. So e think I'm gonna have it. Intellect. My boyfriend is the same thing. Holiest

reason is that she thinks I look too young without it. So So in orderto keep aged have toe have the face case covering. How old are U. S? Oh, I'll be 30 in November, so I'm 2029. Welcome to the club. I just turned 30 a couple weeks ago. How was it? E mean, it's Corona times in America. We handled it horribly, so I wasn't able to have a party. So my boyfriend, I just got a lot of Chinese food and watch Milan on that was not a one. The new one. The cinematography was nice, but, you know, growing up with the Disney movies, you meet later like, Yeah, they're gonna break out in a song soon on, like, two hours later. Like it never happened. I haven't I haven't gotten into watching any of the live action remakes. They did The Lion King as well, right? Yeah, they did. The Lion King and Aladdin

. Um, I watched parts of Aladdin. Um, I think I said it in our first podcast, but I didn't really g o too much into detail when my boyfriend I watched the first Aladdin. That's when I actually had coronavirus, but we didn't know it yet, and I, like, could not stand it. I was like, vomiting, and I actually through the controller at the TV. At one point, I was just, like, turn it off. Like God s o. Who knows? Never finished it. I don't think it was missing money. No, I don't think it's worth going back to you. There's probably a better film to start. Mhm. Uh, yeah, let's talk a little bit about neutral spaces. I think that's a great way to start. Just because I feel like you created something really great. Yeah, I feel like that's probably how most people on the Internet if they do, You know me. They probably know me from neutral spaces before anything else

. I mean, you are published a lot, too. Yeah, Yeah, I guess so. E today neutral spaces is funny because in a certain sense, I'd say, out of all of the things that I've done, it had the least amount of thought put into before going live. Um, I've sunk hundreds of hours into it now, but But it was It was like, I think Holly had gone away for a weekend to go hang out with some friends on. I finished work on the Friday and my mind started wondering Andi, I was like, I think it came from. So, like, I was getting back into Twitter like I did Twitter in a huge way back when I was trying toe being musician. And, like on day 2000 and 10 or something, I used to kind of, like follow a bunch of people in chat and try and get Twitter attention and make people listen to my band or whatever. Um

, what was your band called? S O. I was in a band called Chronograph. So way were a heavy metal band. I um, I'm trying to imagine you in one. There's there's actually there's a well, I'll send you a link. There's a video off me play because I need a yeah, So there's There's a music video were embarrassingly me and the rest of the band and wearing like shirts were like wearing matching white shirts. And we're playing this heavy metal song in the middle of this kind of glamorous like dining room and some stately home or something. E. I've seen stranger clashes before. Yeah, I remember a couple of years ago, I saw Father John Misty at Riot Fast, and that's like a purely punk rock show. And he was like, in a white tux and everything. I was gonna be like, Okay, there's nothing more punk than that. Yeah, I feel like that's cool. And

the white shirts thing in this video is not, but I don't know. Yeah, and it felt like a good idea at the time. I think we were trying toe trying to do something I don't know anyway, So So I had done Twitter once before, and then, um, at some point, something switched from me, reading a lot to wanting to start writing. I don't really know. It was almost like something about like I came back towards Internet writing after the kind of first exposure of kind of Beppe parade and everything. And I started looking I was like 2000, 16, 2000 and 17. And I think suddenly it felt really, um, accessible. I think I definitely the first time I was reading people like Sam and Towel and Noah, I felt like what they were doing was relatable. But

I felt this. Would you feel like that would be like the Genesis toe like you beget beginning writing or so So I definitely had Sorry, remember, like, I don't know. Like, five years before that, I started kind of reading a lot on I was, and I kind of got into things through the classic. So it was like reading Camus and Sartre trying to learn about existentialism. And I was reading like Hubert Selby Jr and learning about kind of gritty suburban stories and, um, like Richard Yates and I don't know so so there was. But these were like books I was picking up from the local bookshop that had been published, maybe 50 60 years ago. E I mean, those are the best ones. Yeah, I really like that. You mentioned Cameron. Sasha. I mean, yeah, that's the college reading. Yeah, exactly. Actually, my existentialist and stories worth bringing up because it's so ridiculous. I am. I was in my first year of uni Andi. I was just feeling

miserable and depressed, which is something that kind of comes and goes in my life. Andi, I went Thio University counselor, and I was kind of talking about stuff, uh, explaining how I felt on Dhere. Kind of starts chuckling and he's like, Ha, it sounds like you're dealing with kind of existentialist problems. Andi was like, it's a thing it's called existentialism on, But it was kind of towards the end of the session, I was on my left and I thought, Damn existentialism sucks. I feel awful. I e wonder if I still got up in my bookshelf. I think I think it was a guy called Gary Cox. Anyway, he wrote a book called How to Be an Existentialist On. I thought that sounds dumb, but I'm gonna buy it and read it and just do none of the things he tells me to do because I'm so miserable with my existentialist issues. Andi, that almost sounds more almost like nihilism. Yeah, eso So it was Basically what happened was I didn't realize that existentialism

was a way of dealing with the problems of existence rather than a kind of prescription of how to live with the miserable reality of challenging your existence. And so I kind of came into it by accident by saying that I didn't want to be an existentialist and then realizing that actually, they were trying to help. They weren't prescribing the existentialist dread that I was experiencing. Um, what were you ah, majoring in at the time? Six. Um, yeah. So I did. I did four years of physics andan. I did a top up the year of maths, and then I've been doing a PhD in maths and physics, so I've been kind of sketching between. I love talking to people like you who don't have the background in writing. I don't either. My degrees Aaron a philosophy and history. So yeah, that's cool. So it's pretty neat to meet other people, like because I'm always wondering, Like how Then they got into it? Yeah, So I did that

. Yeah. And I think I'm It's tricky because I mean, okay, I don't know about you. I'll talk for me and then you can stay with you, agree or not, but I feel like I've I've moved from reading people like Richard Yates. And then I started trying to find things which is slightly more experimental and I don't know. So, like, maybe David Marks in and Stephen Dixon, um And then I started really getting into short stories and reading a bunch of that. And I feel like the mawr that this happened the mawr. I felt like I was reading, uh, university professors. So, like you'd flip to the back of the book and they'd be employed at some university where they teach creative writing. And, um, that was that was kind of who I seem to be interested in reading. But then, at the same time, it definitely has this feeling off a space for the educated, uh, and

when you know, you have people winning prizes and they list their MM phase and it becomes it's an interesting today. It's strange because in a certain sense, I'm really used to this. Um academic gate keeping because you don't find academic research papers in the area that I'm in from anyone outside of the university just doesn't happen. And I think for some of the the more so maybe you could say from your experience of philosophy. But I feel like most of the philosophy texts are written by people who called himself philosophers, but that writing has this space of having being attacked by a kind of punk attitude of not needing to be educated in it. Andi, that makes the whole ground Fillmore unstable and exciting. As a result, I think I feel currently the small

press community is definitely like that. There's definitely an uphill battle. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of MF a gate keeping still. I get very nervous talking to those people because they can immediately see right through you like, Oh, you did not get the technical background here. I think e mean considering the topic of the podcast. I feel like this is a really good space to compare my love of kind of like indie writing and small presses and scenes and Andi the kind of relationship I have thio like indie music Indian the sense of, like, independent rather than at the current joys or whatever. Um and same with, like, punk do it yourself kind of exactly. Exactly on I think. And it s Oh, okay. Maybe Sally Rooney is, you know, educated in a certain way. And she has this amazing book deal, and everyone's paying attention to her making a TV

syriza about what she does. But the kind of twitter bubble of writing a dread to kind of use any terms like old little whatever, whatever is happening right now in this bubble where e don't know. Okay, so using neutral spaces is a kind of gauge that has 2000 followers and about 800 people on it now. So there's about 1000 years growing. I love E. I'm sorry. I remember when you're first starting, and I was like, Oh, I wonder if this is really going to catch on, But yeah, you did. I honestly thought it was gonna be like, 50 people, I think, definitely out of following. Yeah, and it is being cool, but yeah. So they say we have a bubble of between 1000 and 3000 people I think this bubble of people definitely has that. Even if there are people within it who have gone and got an M f A. I think there's

a respect for people by what they produce rather than where they come from. Um, yeah. I've definitely noticed that. Um, as a publisher, I get a very interesting mix of the people who don't have a respect for the more experimental writing. I've even had people yell at me as an editor and being like, you should respect this. I want to such and such school. And I have an m f a from there, and I'm just like, I'm sorry. You're writing Still just didn't hit with me. I'm sorry. Yeah, E. Yeah. So I think it's really cool what you're doing with neutral spaces. Uh, do you have any plans to grow it? Even mawr. Yeah, I've got There's this one idea. I built 95% and then I and then I just I had to finish my thesis, and I was writing my book, and suddenly it just

didn't feel important enough. But I had this idea off often. Anonymous work shopping function where people could submit their writing. Um, without attaching their name to the head of the text, Andi people could click a button and randomly have some piece of writing that they could read and put line at its on and do a kind of overall comment and send back on bond. This gets communicated back. Thio the writer without the sender, knowing who they wrote about Andi without there being kind of any contamination with the idea being that someone might have 20 minutes where they feel like reading some fiction and they can give some people some help on on things that they're thinking about. Um, did you announce us on Twitter already? I can't remember, because sometimes I do just go and announce things and then don't finish them. But

I feel like maybe you said it, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I think so. So basically what I got because the idea sounds so familiar, Like I think it was, You know, I think I said so. I developed the whole thing and it worked, and I got a couple of people in to make sure everything seemed to make sense and stuff. Aan den. I realized I needed to do some kind of like security stuff, like make sure people couldn't say horrible things to each other or that you could report someone for being mean or spamming. Um, because you have to Yeah, that's a little bit more difficult, and it's less about it being difficult, but just I think I just felt bored by it. Um, like I wanted to kind of make this thing and I made it. And then I realized there were a bunch of ways that people could behave in ways which would be unkind on demand. It's important for me. The neutral spaces can be something that makes people

happy. And people enjoy on. I didn't want Thio create something that was gonna bum people out more than it was gonna help anyone. Eso I might go back to it. Well, I might go back to it, let me know. Yeah, I think I think and and I think there's a really exciting mix of people who, like I've got so like, I've got a group chat with Mike Cavern and Zach, and we send each other work and talk about it and say what we like and what we think could be improved on whatever and it's good. But I feel like if you could open that up to people who may be too shy, tohave group messages or feel like they don't know who to reach out Thio and, uh, I don't know, I think a lot of us spend time trying to get our work published. But actually, what we're looking for is having someone just say I have noticed you like I've read your writing. Definitely a lot of validation

. Everything, Definitely. Yeah. And I think even even getting rejected. But having someone say I've read your thing and it wasn't right. Like I think sometimes just feeling visible Maybe, um is what? Especially a place they actually know something within it just to kind of show that they really read it. I always appreciate that. Yeah, I think I think as I have Dunmore writing, I've got more confident that what I'm doing feels right, and I've become less worried if someone says this doesn't feel right, But it, like, there's been a couple of reviews of my book on neutral spaces. Andi, the advertising side is fun, but what's actually bean really, um, touching has bean reading people's relationship to the poems and seeing that they kind of exist within someone else for

some brief period of time. Andi think that's nice. And I think you get that from a letter from an editor, someone who's read your work and says, Hey, I read it This is cool. This didn't work. I don't think it's right for the magazine like you still existed within their world for some period. It's really touching. I like that. Yeah, So back to when you like. We're exploring America. E feel like another fun thing. I gotta be honest. That's actually like one of my favorite hobbies is, Ah, road tripping. Just I think I've been to almost every state so far except like Hawaii in Alaska. And I was gonna say avoided Florida. But no, I did go to Florida. Sadly, Yeah, it was sort of poetry reading. But, um, what do you associate like because I feel like when people associate traveling to certain places, they associate like music and backdrop. I

don't know, because when I'm driving or like traveling or saying I kind of have this five that I'm in my own music video. So like How about you? What was going on in the backdrop of your mind? I'm trying to think, um, I think I So I've done broad trips in various forms through the States. Now, three times on, I think, um, the reason I keep getting drawn back is because so much off the art and culture that I ingest relate. Teoh is American. Um, I'm aware that there are aspects off what is happening in America now that they currently disagree with in the same way that I disagree with a lot of what happens in the UK But if I think about the writers and musicians on painters who I really connected

with, these people are American on bond, I think when I've Bean, given the opportunity of spending time in America, I've had a Really it's not nostalgic, but it it feels like it feels like maybe sentimental. Yeah, yeah, maybe it almost feels like visiting a friend, I suppose. Like like like like maybe maybe it's the kind of equivalent of having a pimple on, then going over and and meeting them like I don't know silly things. Like if you spend five years of your life reading every book you confined about the kind of New York suburbs and then suddenly are there on the trains going in and out of the city and seeing things and staring out the window and going three. The motions of the things that you've read about I just feel like it Z they have you read Paul Auster eso He's a writer that my

dad really likes. Um, Andi Dad, I think, has pretty much every book he's written on by about 10 years ago. Now probably got more. Okay, a long time ago, I remember I went out to see my dad in Italy for the summer, and I just read every poor lost a book he had back to back on. I was like, totally obsessed, and I thought it was the coolest thing ever on Bond Bond. That kind of deep immersion within, within that kind of space that then creates I don't know it turns New York Andi, like he basically write stories about being a writer in Brooklyn on doing stuff in Manhattan is kind of stuff like that. But it turns it turns the city into something which is last like a place and more like a place you've already spent time in, I guess. I think, yeah

, I'm looking into him right now. He wrote something. The New York Children. I really recommend that although I'm recommending that from from like a 12 year memory, but I think it's really good. Um, although I checked that out. Yeah, and there's a I'm looking. What have I got in my bookshelf? I say, I don't have most of the books because I read them elsewhere. I've got leviathans. Well, I think the Via Thin is about. I feel like one of the characters in the Via Ethan is based off the artist Sophie Cow, and I think there's a bomber in it that goes around blowing stuff up in a way that reminds me of the Unibomber. But it's being years since I read it. So, um, probably I'm seeing right now that that was by Viking Press. I like them actually a lot. Everything I've got is published by Faber here in the UK, who

are the kind of big Indy. So they're Indian, the sense that they're not Random House, but they're huge. Like, um, the weird thing in the States is Ah, Random House kind of owns everything. Yeah, yeah, so it's hard to escape from them. But get appreciate some of the larger novels I feel right now. Everything is getting published by larger presses air like celebrity memoirs and such. Uh, I mean, I someone put a tweet up the other day that was like, Which publisher do you have the most books off in your bookshelf And people were doing shoutouts for their favorite small presses, Which is great because it's a nice way to advertise. But I looked at my bookshelf and I was like, Is probably penguin or vintage like E No, I've got loads of lazy fascist books from when I bought everything, Sam wrote. I've got almost everything from

House of Flat, but almost everything from House of Vlad is nothing compared to the tiny percentage of Penguin that I have. So it's like I don't know. No, I am right there with you, looking back at my bookshelf, which is directly behind me. It's all, uh, Random House Penguin stuff like that. It's because I read a lot of nonfiction because of the major and everything, and I'm also just obsessed with like biographies, so yeah, that's cool. So what? What? Disappoint? People disappoint people. I feel like people who are disappointed in that have some kind of idea of what they should be rather than what they actually dio. I didn't. Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of people who speak to me believe that I'm already, like, at a level of understanding the literary world much higher than they do. And I think it's because they really place Mauldin house pretty high up

, which I like. And I think you do a really good thing. Like in terms of physical books. I think, actually, the only more than house book I have is bad spoke, I think, uh, double Baird. I'm trying. I'm trying to scan, but I think I'm probably wrong. There's probably someone I'm missing, and I'm gonna feel bad at the end of this podcast, but I know I've got it is totally I know I've got double bed on. I know you did that. So, um, I know the shipping cost quite a bit, and I think that that's little prohibitive when people from out of the states buy from us. So yeah, it's it's tricky and Actually, I have that problem with almost all of the small presses except the ones who distribute on Amazon, I guess. But, um, we actually just began. We do ingram on. They dio Amazon now, so it should be easier. I mean

, the authors get more money if you buy direct from the press is but you can get it easier at Amazon. I hate saying that, but they win. Yeah, they one is really with the international stuff. It's tricky. I went to New York a couple winters ago and splurged and bought a bunch of books from places where I knew I'd have toe payloads and shipping like That's what I would do. It was great. Like I am, I went thio, Um, What's the name? The really famous? Is it the Strand? Several schooled. It's like a red logo with white writing. I don't anyway. Enormous. Andi, I got so many books it was amazing because they do second hand ones there as well. So So they're like a third of the cost. It was good. I'm feeling self conscious. I haven't talked about music is obviously your podcast. So you're in control. But no, it's totally No, I'm

actually I want people in this podcast to kind of, like, kind of Segway into whatever they feel like, kind of like God, I'm trying to figure out what flows best with them, because, I mean, I feel like music and writing and everything. It's all very intertwined. And eventually you will get there naturally. But, you know, you just gotta, like, vent a little bit. First I was I was thinking about, um because because obviously, I knew the podcast is happening. So it's being in the back of my mind, and I was trying to think of God. He imagine if you didn't know the podcast was happening. Yeah, this I think I e think I'd be okay. I don't think I'd be any less functional them right now. But maybe that just says about how little prepared E was trying to think about the difference in my, um, like

processing or like my relationship between my emotions on board music and literature because they're both super important. Um, from the point of view of music, I have music a little the time on. I obviously can't read all the time, because just the way that we relate to the medium, I guess. But I was also trying to kind of untangle. So I spent 15 years writing music and then all of a sudden I started writing poems and it made more sense and it stuck. And I think, um, I think I still use music as a way thio experience My emotions is I think, I think that's kind of what I got thio this idea that I was thinking about the different genres of music I listened to in case I needed to talk about one of them or artists like and and the kind of general feeling is that all of the things that I was looking

at felt complimentary. They felt like things that I would search out, amplify or maybe change the mood even, Um, but then when it comes, music imbues emotion. So much so yeah, exactly. And and so there's like, um and I also there's some particular kind of maybe loud or heavy or chaotic music that they also uses the kind of suppressant, this kind of idea, that it helps me focus. The MAWR is going on. So but then then I was thinking about writing and I was thinking, It's almost the opposite space where I might use writing to try and understand something that feels unknown. Um, meditate on some kind of experience I've just had and why I acted that way or why I didn't act the way that I was paying to act this kind of space of a question. I think it's

interesting. I don't I can't ever imagine myself putting on an album to try and figure out how I feel. I feel like the music takes too much control, but that the writing really gives you that space to move around in. Um, definitely. I know. When you and I spoke on Twitter briefly and I was trying to get a vibe for your music tastes, I would say, from what I gathered quite a generalist. Uh, are you immediately looking at up? I've got a couple of written down because I e didn't wanna, um e didn't wanna waste. Didn't wanna waste time thinking. I thought I do all the thinking and then it's already Yeah, I have an iPad, an iPhone in front of me with notes. Don't worry. Yeah, so So I am. Yeah, I guess I feel like I

didn't know. I used to be so fixed. I used to only listen to really heavy music. Andi really three Only thing that would change month to month is that I get used to how heavy something waas and need to find something heavier. Um, so I don't know. I remember. I was like When you say heavy, Can you give a little s o? I don't know. Thio kind of do do a jump over like, I don't know. I guess my teenagers I'd start with, um Yeah, it s my parents got divorced it when I was nine on I definitely found heavy music is a way to deal with feeling upset about everything. But the music there was like, e think Slip bots. First album had come out. So I was super into that Onda at the time, there was this understanding that if you like slip knot, you couldn't like corn. So

I didn't like corn for like, three years until I realized I was allowed to like both. I had the same thing with Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails. Like I liked Marilyn Manson and my friend like nine inch nails. So I didn't like nine inch on then Nine Inch Nails. Yeah, so now, although I saw them live a while back in their horrible Oh, no. So, speaking of horrible, I saw placebo live Holly, you got me a ticket and e still like placebo. I was super excited, and I can't remember his name. What's the name of the lead guy, anyway? He had a cold and he couldn't sing. Um, but rather than cancel the show or have someone sing for him, he just sang like a monotone vocal melody through every song, which was like it was like watching the world's worst cover band. It was super strange of that's That's kind of like what's a Nine Inch Nails was like and Blink 1 82 last year. It was because their sound problems it's not like it was their fault exactly

. It's just there is something wrong with the space and the amplifiers, and they did their best. But yeah, I even remember saying, Blink 1. 82 last year, and I could actually hear the people around me singing better than for the band. Uh, like I just hear drunk people trying to do all the small things, and I'm like, I barely see the band, but I don't hear them at all. The new United Snail album on the ghosts. Uh, what, 5 to 8 or whatever. They were really good. They just came out. Um, I feel like nine inch nails has been trying thio make it come back to a certain degree. Do you like Twin Peaks? So, um, I really liked the first I can't n episodes like up until about halfway through season two. I thought to in Peaks was great and really, really liked it and then season to kept dragging. And I never even

got to the end and I haven't seen the new one. And I think Lynch's great say most people land that way. I mean, what happened with the second season is ah, if I'm getting this right is that David Lynch took a very heavy step back because he didn't like the way that the networks were handling things and he only came back for the last episode s Oh, that's if that's the story. I hope I'm getting it right. But in the third thing, the return or the third season whenever, like, people like to call it Nine inch nails. They made an appearance on It was really cool. Yeah, I was like, Where the fuck did they come from? But music, they're playing a concert. Ah, yeah. Um, there is a very odd thing. At the end of every single episode of that season, they had musical performance. It was supposed to be at the Roadhouse. Um, if you ask me to interpret what

that means, given time, I could maybe do it. But right now, I I don't know. I couldn't tell you who's dead or alive or what a topa or Judy is. But let's stay with Finch. Yeah, right. But it happened around the same time that it seemed like nine inch nails was trying to make a push to come back. They had I can't remember the name of it. They had a really good epi come out fairly recently That hard, I'd say some kind of jazz influence on it that moved away from the kind of industrial Elektronik stuff I thought it was really good on then. The ghost ones Which Ambien Which are nice to work, Thio, Um e mean they've definitely lasted better than Marilyn Manson. Who? I don't think it's produced something good for, like, 14 years now or something. Marilyn Manson to me. Got it. Um, might upset you. He was just a flash in a pan for

me. Hey, was my hero for a bit. And I read his biography, like, five times, and I just thought he was the coolest guy. E didn't even know he had a bio. Maybe I'll have to read that. Maybe it'll make me respect him more. I don't know. I don't know. Because I was a teenager when I read it. So I can't trust you that Yeah, I definitely wouldn't trust me. I was. I was there is full on experiencing the complications of teenage hormones that I don't take any responsibility for my behavior back then. Um, but yes. I mean, let's face it, that is the right mind frame to enjoy. Yeah, Marilyn Manson saying Exactly, Exactly. So I don't I don't think it was like I still put on his albums every now and again for the static. I mean, this is a thing like Slip not put out a new album recently, and I didn't particularly like it. Yeah, that's still going amazing. But I was listening to it, and it's impossible

like, is it worse than the album's air liked, or is it exactly the same? But I can't enjoy any of the nostalgic value of it anymore. Is complicated, right? Um, it really is. It's because you attach music to a certain time, and then your brain kind of grows out of it. Yeah, right. And then you can decide. Was it that great anymore? Or if I evolved in the music change, who knows? I think the same could be said about literature. So, like I take nausea, for example, which is a book that had a huge impact on me when I first read it, or everyone use can be saved the plague. But I think that's my favorite coming, um, there really good. I love them, but I read them from perspective of not having read that much and say, Now, now, when I read a new book, I have to read it within the context of everything that I've read already. And so part of me feels

like they probably won't be books that I love in the way that I loved books 10 years ago. E. Today. Tonight I was reading Beatrice by Stephen Dixon over the weekend on There's this, um, seen where the character Beatrice asks the character, who is pretty much Stephen Dixon but has a different name, his kind of relationship to reading because he says he reads all the time. But he doesn't particularly like any of the things that he reads. This idea that he always sees things which could be improved or or whatever. I heavily rely on D. I think recently it's it. There's Bean this, um when you experience something which is being made, there's an interesting place off deciding whether what you're experiencing is is mutable in

the sense that so when when Zack sends me a story that he's written and he's asking me what I think could happen next or do I think it's finished? Or how does the ending feel? Are we reading the? And for listeners specify who Zack Zack Smith or through 50 bomb poems is, um, is what is he? He is part of the What is he? Is he human eyes? He sent someone, described him as my writing partner. The other day. I like that, um you to definitely do seem like s Oh, yeah. I should hit him up for the next 1. 100%. And he has amazing relationship with Music team. In fact, me and Zach know each other because of music, but rather than writing Oh, really? Yeah. Um I messaged him because I had listened to his band three trucks and enjoyed it and wanted to send

I liked it and he was aware of me because of the music I had written with Sam. So God, I'm sorry. Like it just keeps shocking me. How maney writers who I talked Thio I didn't know have bands or had bands. I was talking thio Joshua Bond Sack. I don't know if you know him. He was even telling me that he was in a band. I was like, What were you guys having all the time to do this? I was joking the other day that I think all poets had just failed musicians. But I have spoken with Bud about this because blood was in a band before he started writing as well. E wonder whether you know I still have friends who I think it goes hand in hand with poetry and, uh, music. Are you into bikini kill? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I just keep thinking of this one point that Kathleen Hanna said where she was a spoken word poet at first. Then she

met Kathy Acker and Kathy Acker was like, Why are you even bothering with this? No one wants to hear you do that. Become a rock star, instead forced them to listen to you. And it seems like the rest of us have kind of, like, done the polar opposite, so yeah, well, maybe maybe after realizing no when no one was listening, it's easier toe Stop trying to make people listen and do something silent instead E today, I think. Yeah. So Zack Smith is, um, is a writer now, but I know him as a musician. Um oh, yeah. So when I read one of immediately get a message him after that? Yeah, 100%. Um, he wrote linguistic paper on shoe gaze. Band names back when he was an academic. Oh, that is fantastic. Maybe it was sorry. It's like we're just talking about shoe gaze music a while back in the last podcast. Yeah

, Z Yeah, maybe just delete this recording and rings Zack up now have that conversation. Um, but yeah, to go to go back to the point when I'm reading Zac's writing. It's like the clays wet. There's this idea that I could say I think this web could change or you could have something here and on the writing becomes dynamic Onda further back, Ugo, I think and they say pick up on old copy of Dusky s key. I don't think I'm in that same place. I'm not reading it thinking I wonder what would have happened if he had made the character have an argument here or what happens if instead of the room being dark, there's a flash of lightning or whatever some kind of classical variant toe, whatever is happening. Um, but in the same way, you could view it like that, right? It's still just a changeable is anything that we read currently. If you're Onda

end, it comes to this point I guess of I don't know the relationship you have with Yeah. How finished do you expect something to be? I don't know. Like I think it's interesting as you move out of history and into a literature scene which is primarily focused on reading something that was maybe written a week ago or three months ago. Right? Like most of these, most of these literature sites of publishing pretty quick. Yeah, there definitely is a quick turnaround on writing these days. Same could be said, though, with the music. You sure? Um what do you think of this? Okay, I'm totally gonna bunch of this. I can't remember if this is the proper

quote, it's ah, Jean Michele Bescot. That's why I'm sorry. I fucking I'm so horrible pronouncing on American except yours. I got that, uh, literature is how we decorate space music is how we decorate time. How do you feel about that? Do you agree with that theory or, uh, do I agree with the theory? Uh, so I think it's interesting from his point of view, because ah, lot of his canvases have the white space filled with words. So, like, if I think I've got one of his paintings is a postcard on my wall somewhere. But I can't see it from where I'm sat. He's got please say his name properly for me. I don't. I don't know if I can. It's probably It's probably something like Bosquet, I imagine. Yeah, e I might be wrong. E Definitely different. I know Jean Michele. That's

probably E s that last name that got May? Yeah. So he uses words within the campus is away of creating or working with space, which is interesting to hear that quite within the context of what he writes, Andi music obviously can only exist within time. Again. Mm hmm. I was thinking about Yeah, I think part of how I'm processing this is I'm thinking about So I was reading your points of the interview and you were saying that part of it would include me reading. And I was thinking about my poems, and I was thinking How I don't really understand how my poems can exist within a red context. All, Mrs, though I feel there's

something emergent within a poem that you don't get when it's red in one go. And obviously, I'm not asking someone who listens to the podcast to listen to me. Read a poem five times to get it on. And I don't I don't even mean that you have to listen five times for it to make sense, I guess it's Mawr this feeling off for me a good poem is a poem that breaks me off, and I might read it partially. And it takes me somewhere and makes me start thinking about things. And it's that processing time that you need that you can Yeah, And so maybe maybe this kind of space filling notion is that the writing is more like a It's more like a sign off pointing you towards

some kind of place to think about. It's not something that you experience within the sentence, and then it stops happening. Um, but if I if I put on some I didn't know, they say, put on some kind of big techno track by I hate models and it's like, really loud and there's loads of base on. I'm feeling really driven by it. As soon as the music gets turned off, all of the momentum that's being built by the song dissipate super quickly like you don't keep dancing to music, which has been turned off. Think about the end of a club night, all the lights. Come on, you're shocked about who you've decided to dance with in the full lights, All the velocity stop right, But But if you read a book or a short story, I know someone like Troy. James Weaver is a is a writer I deeply respect, and he writes these incredibly powerful short stories and you read one of his stories and the

whole way that the whole time through the story there's a momentum that pulls you through to the end. But it's that space after the end of the story, that space where you really live within what you've experienced, and I think that's the difference. Literature creates this kind of place to be in after the moment. Onda. There's no termination in the same way you can read a sentence that can stay with you all day, right? E think. I think in that sense there's a There's a persistence to the places literature could take you that I think music needs kind of constant thing, and I guess that would be one way to interpret the difference between the temporal feeling of music. This kind of this is happening now, and this is where you're going to be on demand, what it means to be experiencing writing that connects with you. Obviously

, writing that doesn't connect with the you can hear once or 1000 times, and it doesn't take you anywhere. Um, eso you have, You have to live it. Yes, but then music. It's probably the same, right? Like, I was joking with cabin yesterday like eighties music, and I just I can't deal with the super happy since. And sax solos and chorus and vocal melodies and stuff. Um, well, that seems to be making a huge comeback right now. It's super popular, but you know, anyway, um I mean, producers like Jack Antonoff and everybody throwing heavy sense and everybody's music. So yeah, there are. There are bands like I don't know whether they were a big deal in the States, actually, but there's a band called the 1975. Oh, yeah, so they wouldn't exist without the eighties for sure. Their major seventh chords and happy melodies. I've always liked melancholic music and theeighties fills

like the antithesis of that for me. So yeah, I I would kind of define that almost as like sad boy music. Yeah, I am. I'm into it to my list of writing of things that I thought I should talk about. I've got sad boy music written, which, which actually is predominantly field by female artists. But I think I think it's because it makes me feel like a sad boy rather than because it's made by sad boys. Please disclose. I'd love to hear e gonna talk again. And don't worry. And I am a playlist called said boy music. I even have Billy. I'll ish s e think if it puts you in that sad face E what have I got in here then? Um ah. Hi today for me, Like so, um, I'm kind of swinging in between wanting to just say things that people will know, So they'll be like, Oh, yeah, Jack listens to music that we like. Um

, I know I remember listening to mix key because Noah Cicero wrote about listening to Mitt ski in his car and I've been stuck on her ever since I saw her perform live in Brooklyn lost winter. Maybe it was the winter before that, Considering how this year's gone, I can't remember. But she is incredible. Like if you ever get the chance to see her life, I think that was one of the That was one of my greatest music experiences. She's just I'm waiting for concerts to come back and then I'll be Yeah, yeah, of course. But she's She's super good. Um, there's a love for music videos, e I haven't seen any. I've only seen her like audio tree, live or tiny desk performances and stuff. I like taking jazz performances. Yeah. So what else is on your sad boy museum? So No, no, a lady. But do you know current joys E c

? So I am. Have you ever definitely some made links Stuff later. I should make a I should make a playlist or something about are definitely send you some links. Have you ever written music before? No. No, not me. I tried learning guitar with my first boyfriend, and he was just like, you're really good at writing. You should just stick to that. And I was just like, Yeah, Okay. We're gonna break up now. Yeah, that feels like a bad kind of compliment. But anyway, when I when I first heard current joys, I felt like I was listening. Thio the music that I would write if I could be bothered to still write music. It was such a weird feeling. Every note he picked and every chord and the whole thing, I was like, that's exactly what I'd want to do. But I just haven't done it. Um, that Yeah

, I'm a I'm a super fan of that. And then and then on the flip side, I'm gonna I'm gonna g o a bit left field with my sad boy music. And my other favorite sad boy thing is super sad cello music. I think cello Sonatas are my ultimate melancholy on bears. A Hungarian composer called Ligety who wrote a two piece cello Sonata which I think is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written on bond. Listening to it is, like instant, somber, meditative, sad boy space, which, which I really like. Um, now, would you listen to this all in one sitting, or do you mix it up and be like today? I'm listening. Thio this genre or this genre, or do you go by mood? I definitely don't go by genre. I do the slightly more dysfunctional thing off having the only repeat. I really turned on on my iTunes on

they will often listen to the same album, like 15 times in a row before I realized what I've done. Um, which is fine? One of eso when Holly's home. Sometimes you're like, Come into the room amenities like Jack, you have to stop like you've listened to this album all day on. I haven't even realized that was doing it, that so that. See, I feel like the best writers really allow, like music just kind of, like take up their mind until they actually start writing. I think because I was trying to think if there was like a go Thio album for when I'm writing and there definitely isn't. But I do feel like I tend towards music that either has no lyrics or has so much shouting and screaming that you can't hear the lyrics, Um, almost like you have to combat it, Yeah, or just or

just like if I guess if I'm trying to find a word, I've got someone singing words into my ears. It's a bit like No, not that one. Stop it. I'm trying to constant tree, but like I don't know if I have something like throats or throws or I know the new end album is incredible and super heavy, but I don't know what they're saying at all. So that so by that point. Although I know that technically, their words I don't experience them as words. And so I don't find that they take up the same space. Um, no, I I do that a little bit during writing. I'll do it where I just kind of like, keep listening to the intro of the song before they actually start sinking. They'll just stop it and restarted and just do that on repeat for a while. What? What? What do you have, like certain artists that you listen to when you're like, I want to get some writing done today? Me, uh, I don't know. I'm not sure if I really have a go to writing playlist, but I

don't know. Let's see what I got. I have stuff on my phone. I have a bunch of Spotify playlists. Yeah, stuff that I send friends. And let's see, I even have one called witchy vibes. Okay. Uh, yeah, I do kind of a little bit more, uh, temper trap. Vampire weekend, uh, faces throw in some pixies in there and I had balance, Sebastian. Okay. I had my first Pixies. Um, like I hadn't listened to them in ages on the house opposite. Started playing. I can't remember where it's track it was. And I was like, Holy shit, The Pixies, I'd like, totally forgot about them for, like, 10 years of my life and then put them on for the rest of the day. So I was pretty cool. Um, I love it, but really I mean, I have so many different playlists that, like none of them, makes sense. I mean, I have one, like, ready for the high life stuck in your head

, Sad boy hours One is literally just called angst speaking is it just depends on what I'm trying to write or where I'm feeling making a sad boy the saddest music. I don't know if you know, but have you listened to mount eerie eso So mount Eerie is the That feels like the atom bomb of sad music. Um really? Yeah, yeah. What's the thall? Bem. He very after his wife died about the crab. Look it up. Let's see who gets it first. Bu because I'm spending everything if a crow looked at me. That album is just like I feel like sometimes you listen to music and it's like, Oh, yeah, this was obviously a sad album and it's hard to listen Thio, But like this on by the the

Nick Cave album he did after his son died. Those two albums, you listen to it. It's just like, totally devastating, like incredible. But on the opposite end off sad boy music like, I think bands like Elvis Presley or Johnny Goths or teen Suicide thes kind of like band camp. Sad boys stuck in a room with a four track recorder, singing about how they're sad because they got dumped on Twitter or whatever. E think. That's an important sadness, T. I mean, I think that's what I write about more than more than life ending sadness. But yeah, Do you want to share anything you wrote before we wrap up anything at all? Or you could just plugged the book. It doesn't matter. So I have a book that I wrote called Chainsaw Poems and other poems. Um Go City Press have published it for me. I worked with Kevin, who has bean really sweet and encouraging E

sent him. I think like 15 poems is a chat book. And he was like, If you got any more and I sent him like, 10 more and then we decided that it was gonna be like that and he said, How about we make it a full book? And then I ended up writing like, 20 more poems. And now it's like a like a proper legit book and he's printed it. And I think a couple people now have copies. Might have somewhere over the Atlantic still, but it's super exciting. No, you gave me the pdf. I liked it a lot. E I'm actually really touched by how many people have said nice things about it. I am. Well, you're never gonna have anybody who says bad things about Thio. No, but, you know, obviously people could say nothing. And actually, if it's true, if someone if someone got on the Internet and said I tried reading it, I thought it was garbage. I'm not sure I'd feel upset. See, that would devastate me. I I mean, it

would depend her. It would crawl under my desk and put on the angst plate. Lis. That's what the Yanks playlist is for. I am. I've had your but for ages. Now I remember getting it from I can't I can't even remember. I think it was one of those books I bought because I like the title. And generally when I do that and then also like the book Which one was the one on expert? The I want to have a happy but yeah, I've got it right here. Yeah, but yeah, I am. I don't know. Well, I think I had a really hard time thinking about my book when I was finishing it, because I think I'd rather talk about this than read a poem from the book I had this I

have this feeling off. So the books which are most important to me books which have helped me understand something it doesn't always have to be very complicated. Thio use a neutral choice that doesn't show preference to any of any of my friends. John Steinbeck, right? Used to be eaten. And I remember when I read it it taught me so much about my relationship with my brother. Andi finished it, and I sent him a long message and it just put into context a lot of things. I'm super close with. Click. He's an incredibly good and kind person, but I think it helped me understand my relationship with him. I'm not sure it made the relationship better, but there was definitely a kind of eureka moment. I guess we're reading it. Andi, I think these that that that is what I'm looking for when I'm reading in general this kind of trying

to understand my place within the world. And I guess that's what I was trying to do with my own poetry. But the the problem is, is when I read someone else's book about feeling alienated and sad or lonely or misunderstood. It helps me feel less sad and less lonely because I'm like, Hey, I'm not the only person who finds all of this incredibly complicated Um, life is Click were a giant support group. Yeah, right. But then then I was there with my book on. I'm reading this book about feeling sad and lonely and isolated. Andi separate from the world around me. I'm not feeling soothed by it. I don't feel more understood because it's my book time. There, reading a poem about how I feel external from the world around me, and I don't know what to do about it. I'm not getting any of thes e usual kind

of benefits. I'm just kind of experiencing my own struggles. And one day I just suddenly realized I was never going to like my book like I like other people's because my book could never do for me what I'm looking for in a book, and I kind of have to just hope that maybe someone else who's not me well read this book can go. Oh, man, I totally feel those things, too, and it's okay because there's this dude over in the UK who has this problem, too, even though our lives are completely different and I don't know it. I think you write these books and they exists, and maybe some people will read them. But I don't know, don't know what it means, really. Um, I mean, I feel like it's a way of reaching out. I mean, as a writer myself, I, too, will never get the same satisfaction that other people will get from reading my work

because it's just your raw emotions, you know, e mean, how could ever feel really great about, like, your shittiest of times, you know? Yeah, exactly. But for other people, it's just kind of amazing to be like, Oh, not alone, or I totally get this. So this helps soothe me through my issue. And I'm like, good for you e today what we're doing. But but I also think I'm it's just goods to do it. And I think the publishing is sometimes just away to help you stop editing. Um, you mentioned that I've had some parents put up online and stuff, and I think my main motivation for sending them out has always bean relief. This idea that Okay, I'm done with this. I am going to send it into someone's email. Andi

, whether or not they say yes or no, I can't keep working on this because the poems finished. Um, and that's important. I think you're putting it in someone else's hands. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're like, Hey, I'm done. If you like this, that's really nice. We can we can publish it, and if it's not right, then maybe I'll send it to someone else or I'll just let it sit in this document and see if something happens with that. Something? Yeah. I don't know. Why do we do what we did? That is what therapists and therefore Yeah, actually, I e told my therapist I had a book coming out and he said he was going to buy it, so that would be interesting. Maybe we'll have a session about my book. Um, I actually wrote that first book. I want to feel happy, but I don't only feel blank because my therapist told me that they thought I was better expressing my emotions

via writing than speaking. So that was just a therapy exercise. And I was like, This actually sounds pretty alright. Yeah, And hell, even the one piece that just got accepted by Hobart that was under duress. My therapist was like, I'm just going to sit here and watch you submit it so you can't keep talking about it anymore. Your therapist is your best agent. She really You know, she has a daughter who's an influencer, and I just be like I know how she got to where she is at. Well, that's support. Yeah, it's just one of those. I'm gonna make you work hard because can you imagine being an influencer? Imagine? Imagine that. Like I thought it was bad enough having to tell people I was a mathematician. But imagine meeting someone at a party and them asking you what you do during the day. And you have to tell people you're an influencer, you know, it's a very different, uh, I'm trying to figure out like the context of it in America

is very different than it is in other countries. I did a fellowship a while back. That's why I kind of put modern house on hold. And one of my favorite people I met during that time was a Chinese student named she and he was saying how profoundly different, uh, Chinese people are than Americans And I was like, Oh, is it because we're individualistic assholes? He's like, Okay, other things. But everyone he had ever spoken to What they wanted to do in life was kind of like mathematician, engineer, be an astronaut, something very meaningful. But any time he spoke to an American, and what we want to do was, we want to become famous, be an influencer wannabe, a blogger like so that definitely is pretty common here. You will not get as much discussed evacuation, meet other influencers or wannabe influencers

. Yeah, I don't know if they everybody likes to pretend that they are. I'm not quite sure where the threshold is when you actually are one. Yeah. At what point do you actually have influence? Um, yeah, I didn't know. Not yet. But But OK, e don't know anything else you want, say, before we wrap up. Thank you for chatting. It's nice. It's nice to think about these things and have, um it has been nice. You know, it be really great for me to post along with the podcast. You should make a playlist. Yeah. Should I do Spotify? I use apple music. Yeah. Is it just just another way for me to be different from everybody else? But I could do one on Spotify just a Steve Jobs says Think different. Think different. Not anymore. Yeah, I'll make a playlist because I feel like listening to music

is better than listening to someone talk about music. Thank you. E Think its's. I think the nicest thing about things like this is having a relaxed space to talk about writing and writers And, you know, obviously we haven't met from different countries, but the the small bubble of modern house and natural spaces and e I feel like you can talk about people with just using their first names and within the context, you know who that is? I think that's nice. E like that. Definitely e hope we actually meet in real life It some point If I was never allowed to leave the house, we'll see hell if we're ever allowed to go with anywhere other than America. I have a dream of doing a neutral spaces reading one day that that would be I would so attended. Be cool and it would be really nice Thio use It is an opportunity for, um, advertise to become people

. And obviously we can all be really awkward together and do the reading thing a couple of years back. Uh, catch business she for e think it's two or three years in a row. She held catch fast and everyone actually traveled to Denver. Wow, to, like do a kind of mini literary festival with her. It be cool. If you did something like that over by you, I would go. I'd buy a ticket. Yeah, well, I think I think my feeling waas admitting defeat that I have planted myself within America and organizing it in the states e feel like doing something like I know. And they John does stuff with New York tyrant with his readings and stuff. Feel like sending him an obnoxious tweet and making him organize something with neutral spaces for reading in New York one day or something? Um, that would be really cool. The exact to come down from Boston so I could meet him properly. Um

, hopefully we can all do that. Yeah, just, you know, we've got to eradicate the global pandemic, and then I've got a book, some days of holiday. Oh, okay. I'm really waiting for America to get a together. I mean, I could barely leave the house, and I've already had it. Oh, my God. Is it snowing outside? Okay, my state is crazy right now. It is snowing. You You in Chicago? Yeah, I'm just looking out the window. And I was like, I thought it felt Yeah, it's winter now. It's okay. Because we had such an adventurous and fun summer. Yeah. Yeah. Um, our whole summer was waiting. Yeah, like is it over? But now our country really mishandled stuff. So way did a similar thing here way I'm not I don't want to end the podcast with co vid grievances. I feel happy to have had a nice chat

. And we're not going to fix the endemic together. So No, thank you, Mallory. Alright, Have a tonto.