Welcome to another episode of the Time for Teacher podcast. Today, we have Dr Damon Harris on the podcast who is the manager of professional development schools and higher education partnerships in Anne Arundel County Public Schools. He is also a co-director of the building our network of diversity project of Maryland based nonprofit that supports male educators of color. Dr Harris has had a wide range of experiences as a teacher, instructional coach, administrator, author, adjunct professor, speaker and consultant through his speaking and adjunct experiences. Dr Harris leads courses related to effective teaching methods, research protocols, anti-racism, teacher recruitment and teacher retention. His first book, which we talk about in this episode today, I absolutely love it is called the Anti Racist school leader and it is on sale. Now, let's hear from Dr Damon Harris educational justice coach Lindsay Lyons. And here on the time for teacher podcast, we learn how to inspire educational innovation for racial and gender justice design curricula grounded in student voice and build capacity for shared leadership. I'm a former teacher leader turned instructional coach.

I'm striving to live a life full of learning, running, baking, traveling and parenting because we can be rockstar educators and be full human beings. If you're a principal, assistant superintendent, curriculum director, instructional coach or teacher who enjoys nering out about core curriculum of students. I made this show for you. Here we go, Dave and welcome to the time for teacher of podcasts. Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you. I am very excited about your book, The anti racist school Leader and very excited to dive into it today. I have read your bio, which is often very professional feeling and sometimes folks want just kind of say either what's on their mind at the moment or here's who I am before the professional bio or, or in addition to the professional bio, um feel free now to like take this opportunity to share whatever kind of thing you want to share, to ground our conversation today or I'd, I'd say that I am a son and grandson of 51 years.

I'm a, I'm a father of 23 years. I'm a husband of 27 and all of those folks and I'm a community member forever and all of those different stakeholder groups, including my own Children have poured into me. So they are the folks that are the the public facing, they affect the public face and view of, of me more so than any of my professional accomplishments. I love that grounding in relationship. That's beautiful. Thank you for that. And I think one of the, the coolest uh phrasings around freedom dreaming comes from Doctor Bettina Love. So I like to start each episode with this. It just, you know, she talks about dreams grounded in the critique of injustice. And so I'd love to know Damon, what is your big dream for education, for leadership? However you want to take it? Yeah, I I think my my big dream is likely attached to the visions and missions of most of the public schools, probably the private schools as well that, that I've been attached to.

So it is, I want a world in which everybody belongs. Um And I want a world where everybody can achieve. And um and so those two things are a part of the reason why I, I wrote the book because I don't see enough of that. But I see a lot of people who, who want, who want the same, who have the same desire as I do and they're not quite sure how to help their organization shift. That is brilliant just the way you put that. And I, I see that a lot too is that folks share that common dream and to orient all of the work around this common dream I think is a beautiful way to get people to be like, OK, let's do this thing, right? And I, and I think that that is a wonderful entry point to our conversation and to be able to talk about about your book today. So I think I just absolutely love this. I am anticipating, I'm not quite finished, but I am anticipating this. Honestly will probably be one of my favorite books of, of, of education.

Like top five. It is. Yeah, it is brilliant. And I absolutely love, I mean, just even, even looking at the table of content the way you broke down the sections just so good, it like captures all of the things. So if you don't mind, I'm just gonna like read off some of these sections. I'm good with that. Awesome. So there's the personal start rate where there's the educate yourself and commit. Then we have cast and anti racist vision. Then we have planned professional learning experiences, encourage and embrace resistance because you know, that's gonna happen and elevate anti racist curriculum and instruction. The fact that I mean, my heart sang when I saw that, that's part of this, right? Like it instruction is what we do, right? And then monitor your impact. I mean, my brain just went, I haven't read that chapter yet, but my brain just goes to like street data and lived experience and like all the things, right? So I am just really jazzed about this book and I'm wondering where you want to start the conversation because I think one of the things for me is that there, it's so action oriented and that the no say and do is kind of that way you wrap up each chapter.

And I, I love the action oriented. This, I also just love how you came up with each of those categories and decided to say like these are all important aspects to this work. Sometimes we may focus on one to the exclusion of the others. Like, so all of this. So I, I don't know if there's a place that you want to start from, like how you conceptualized that, how you kind of think through all of the piece. Uh What would make sense to start for us today? So I, I'd like to follow on the thread that you just uh tugged on a little bit about the action oriented um titles and the they are intentional because anti races is a behavior, it's not a static characteristic, right? And so the, the, the kick the spark for me to write this book was really around uh Ibram Ky's work with how to be an anti racist because I was doing some work. This, this book is in, in a sense, in one sense, a love letter to my former school community where I was a principal.

And so I, I write about not just my, a little bit about my upbringing to, to start, but it's more about the the activities we went through the journey my school began to take together when I was a, when I was a principal. And so been telling our folks all the time that we have agency. It isn't like a static characteristic that you are anti racist as the same as you can say you are tall, right? It's not like that. So you have agency, you can't make a change, you can't make a difference, you can do something. And when I travel around to have these conversations with different groups of folks, folks often say, I hear you say we, we can do something. I hear you say we have agency. I hear you say there are other people out there who are willing to join the the fight for us with us, but we don't know how to start. All right. So we don't know what we're supposed to know or what we're supposed to say or what we're supposed to do related to our desire to make change and, and that's where the different components of the book um began to take form.

And I love that you, you specifically name too, right? That a school leader doesn't have to be necessarily an administrator, right? But it's like, how do I do this as a paraprofessional? How, how do I do this as a teacher in a classroom? Right? How do I do this as a community member with the school? There is a range of options here which I, I love that frame is that everyone is a leader and needs to be a leader, right? For this work. Absolutely. Our kids need you, right. There's too much at stake for you to be on the sideline, waiting for somebody to give you direction. Yes. And if you need direction, read this book, there you go. And so I think one of the, one of the cool things that, that I loved is that actually a lot of the, those sections of categories and why I wanted to read them is actually closely mapped on to the questions that I usually ask on this, on this podcast. I was like, whoa, this is perfect. Um Where I typically think of the various elements of things we do related to mindset, which you kind of just touched on and I think it touched on in the the chapter about kind of that self reflection and, and in doing that internal work, uh the pedagogy pieces, right? That instruction, the curriculum, the content that we teach as well as the assessment, how do we assess student learning, but also how do we assess the systems?

Um And, and I think each of these are, are really important. I'd love to maybe dive into a couple of them if that's OK with you. Um I, I know that you share kind of like a um some ideas in the, in the mindset piece and, and kind of sharing this with, with teachers when you're getting into your vision, the the clarifying an answer, racist, racist vision. I'm not exactly sure the frame phrase you use, but I, I think the visual framework idea was really compelling and the idea that you shared that it is whoever's on the receiving end of that, who was hearing the vision um different communities may gravitate more to like a visual element or a metaphor, an analogy. I just loved that you shared that and then you also shared examples and then critiqued the examples to say nothing is perfect, but we don't need perfection just so good. Do you mind saying a little bit more about that? Absolutely dead. Oh I don't know if I could say it any better than you. But what um one of the things that I I'll add to what you said is, is really about the education part of this where the that first chapter to educate yourself and commit to the work is we don't always understand.

A lot of us have taken like the Harvard Implicit Association test or we've seen some of the images online and talked about implicit bias, et cetera. But a lot of us haven't sort of dug deeply enough to have a, a deeper, stronger understanding of why we act the way we act. And so they don't, we don't understand that, that the phrase IU or the word I use I highlight in here is um homophily, which is our gravitation toward the familiar. So we wanna be around people that we think are the most like us. And that could be a bunch of different in a bunch of different ways, right? That, that Wheel of Identity that a bunch of us who are listening and probably seen, right? Or that Wheel of Power and Privilege. Um That is also one of something that I'm sure your audiences has probably seen like, so we know a lot about those things like th those wheels, but we don't understand why we or why we, but also some of our other folks still gravitate towards those folks, those pieces on that wheel that are most like us and we want to be around them, we wanna join them, we we want to support that group because they become our in group.

And and so once that in group is established in your mind, you fight harder for them, right? You give them more of the benefit of the doubt when things go wrong. Like one member of your group doesn't speak for everybody. One bad behavior by somebody in your group is just one piece of a big uh puzzle for you. But that outside group, those folks who don't share the most the the strongest number of characteristics with us. That group, we tend to look at it differently. So we tend to say one bad thing is representative of that whole group. We don't give them the benefit of the doubt. We don't fight as hard for them in fact. And in some of the, the books that I reference in there like um Jessica Nordell is the end of bias or, uh, J Van Bels, um, the power of us or we talk about how we not, it's not enough for our group to win. The other group has to lose. We feel better. We get a bigger dopamine hit when we see our rivals lose than when we see our end team win.

So once we get a sense of that and then we, we add on the layer of, we are socialized to believe that race is the primary thing, the primary characteristic, even though race, I'm sure your audience know it's not a real thing, right? But it it is the implications are very real. Um And so once we see like we, I share this with my school staff to say, what about if, because those identities that we put in the forefront or background can change depending on the context we're in. So sometimes we can think about it as race because that's, that's how we're socialized. But we can also think about it when we're riding home listening to a political podcast. Now our political affiliation might move to the front, right on Sundays. Some of us are um doing religion, right? Or religious ceremonies or on Saturdays or Sundays or some other days of the week during religious ceremonies where that identity moves to the front.

And maybe later that day, the attended sporting events where that identity moves to the front, right? So what we share that with our, with my staff to say what if we said while we were here in our building and in our community, we moved that identity to the front. So if our school is our primary in group, now all our kids and their families get the benefit of the doubt. Now we wanna see them win at all costs, right? Like it, it it not only changes our mindset, it changes the world, right? Like and, and so once my school staff and it wasn't just me who developed this vision, right? I shared it initially, but all of my, my supervisor, my staff, my parents and my school community, everybody started talking about what they thought about this idea. Um And so we all bought in together and, and so that, that's really exciting for me once I shared with them sort of the vision, but then I, then we began to talk about why we think the way we think and why I'm taking this orientation towards our work or why I'm suggesting this.

Um then, then it was, we were gone, we were off and running. I, I really love that because I, I think a lot about adaptive leadership theory and I, I think, right, when we're, we're dealing with an adaptive challenge, right? Adaptive challenge, like institutionalized racism and structured racism and white supremacy, culture and all right, all the things that have been like, we keep talking about them and we keep like not making progress and they're long standing. Like this is a long standing challenge. We got to do something different. We're not going to go to one PD and then it's done, right? Like it's shared leadership, it's co creating with the community, it's pulling in and partnering with all these groups that you're describing. And so I just love that your school. Like I, I love you said that this is a love letter to your former school because I can see in it like just the the love and connection and sense of belonging that you were able to nurture to be able to even do something like that, which is just really powerful and cool to know is possible for people listening who are like, maybe that's not me yet, maybe that's not my school yet, but it can be. And, and one of the things that I love too is that you lay out a very clear action plan like the, the PD path that you described I think was super cool.

And I love that one of the end goals is, is critical consciousness, right? For students. But also that I know along the way, you know, you need teachers to have critic consciousness. It just, it like really spoke to my heart. So I'm wondering as we think about the actions of that PD plan, the, the goal itself. I mean, can you talk us through a little bit about either what that was like or advice you'd give to a leader who's considering something similar. Yeah. And so some of this, the folks who were in my former school district, they, they would recognize some of these elements as things that we were doing as a school district in terms of using backward design for some of our professional learning pieces um laying out what we call a professional learning progression. Um So it's, it's PD, right? But it's, it's a little more centered on, I guess the, the learner or the, the participant as the learner, but the person who drives the, the learning and it's not just someone else developing me, it is us growing and, and, and learning together.

Um So once we, we determined or the school district I was in had already said, hey, we can do backward design, we can back map the stuff from our end, from our angle to where we to where we are now that desired state to the current state. And then how, how can we have some steps along the way? And for me, it, it was a simple transition for our school to say we can do the same with anti racism and our thinking around this. And so Sharon was as a part of casting, that vision was to say, hey, here's a conceptual diagram that just says, here are some steps from our current state to our desired state. And here are the things I'm suggesting we hit on along the way here are a couple of things that are non negotiables. But everything else, you know, we can, we can shape together. And if once we were able to say, OK, we can do that, we get to step one, where do we go? Because that conceptual diagram was, was like you said, the end result was 34 years, we'd have our students who were uh critically conscious, right?

And I know your audience probably knows this. But is that that in my view of critical consciousness is that you have the ability to recognize when injustice is occurring um or some disproportionate outcomes in a negative way are, are manifesting. You also have the skills to do something about it, right? So if you, you have the knowledge to say here is what I can recognize. You have the skill to say I can change this, I can change these outcomes for the better. And then you have the motivation or the the self efficacy to say I am going to use my skills to make this change for the better. So we could do this with our students in a way in folks who are listening in some states where um my the book title won't really fit for your your school library shelf in, in some states. You can still use these principles to support your students in making change in any ways that are appropriate for the strategic use of your leadership.

Um When you're trying to, to do some social justice work. Yeah, I, I love that. You mentioned that because I think there's a lot of folks who, I mean, individual like parents and family members who, when, when I was just a teacher, uh who would come in and say like, you know, what are you, what are you teaching about? What are you talking and, and through conversation when we're talking about the, the skill of critical consciousness, when we get down to what it really is. A lot of folks are like, oh yeah, that sounds good. That sounds good, right? Like I want that for my kids, right? And it's just about the ability to be able to, you know, whatever, like, like navigate, I suppose we must navigate the legal, whatever even though the laws are been and we know that, right, that white supremacy in action. Um but like being able to really sit down and have those, those partnership conversations with the folks in our community to say like, don't we want this for our kids? I think it's critically important and the fact that like the ultimate goal is to have students identify in justice and remedy it. Like that is what we want for.

I think you right in here like ultimately a better society, right? Like that's the goal 100 years from now. And so I think that's, that's it. Right. Um Absolutely. And everybody's in many groups are doing this work. So even groups who think they are at odds, right? They are still saying, hey, we recognize some injustice sometimes with the racial lens um and sometimes they're looking at it from white, white students are feeling uncomfortable with work or with their conversations, right? But that's still the same recognizing injustice using a racial lens and saying we're going to organize and take action to remedy this, right? And these are members of our family, like thinking about that, encouraging, embracing resistance piece. The the school community is our family. The staff is our family. You, you don't cut grandpa, grandma, Aunt Susie out of your life because they say something that you don't agree with. All right. So we, we work together on that. Um And so that's what we do as a school and as a community, we try to say this isn't about um disagreement is not about us having less intelligence or somebody else need to be more informed or somebody else having uh more moral righteousness, right?

That's not what this is. This is different life experiences. Hey, everybody. It's Lindsay just jumping in here to tell you about today's freebie for the episode. So, since Dr Harris and I are talking a lot about anti racism and addressing that as a leader, I'm gonna share with you my Adaptive challenge mini work book because this is an adaptive challenge. It is a long standing issue. Let's figure out how to address it by first diagnosing that it is. There. Also, Dr Harris shares a one pager. If you are interested in getting the book for a leadership collective or a book study, you absolutely can check that out. These are both going to be on the blog post, Lindsay, Beth lions.com/blog/one 49. All right, back to the episode. So if we now say you have different life experiences than I do, let's work together to have some collective life experiences that can shape both our thinking. Um because I'm willing to change my mind a little bit, if you're willing to change your mind a little bit and we can operate on our values um to, to make our school and our community a better place. Right.

Right. And I love that you grounded all of this in belonging too, right? Because if we're committed to belonging, it's like every person has the right free from psychological or physical harm to be able to raise their hand in a class and share a thought, right? But with the understanding that we're, we, I, I usually use the word dignity, but like, you know, human dignity is central, right? Belonging is central. And so if we're all in agreement and, and that can be our foundation, then we can have, right? A lot of discussion and discourse that we might not have, were that not the foundation. And, and I think that's what's so beautiful about. Like, I think the way that you started this episode off is that, that is the ground and that's the goal and, and critical consciousness is, is a piece of that, right? Like that, that's, that's how we enact the goal. Um I think there's so many ways to like, determine and success and I love that you use Gus's um PD learning measures in there too. Uh I think for, for a lot of leaders, particularly those who might not have like trained in like different um like psychometrics or like methodological, like research methodologies, like how to like gain information about um learning metrics beyond, you know, your typical, how we do this in education?

I think that this was really illuminating. I mean, even for a person who has trained in that, I was just like, yes, this is so good. The breakdown of like, here's what we do and here's what it can look like in action was so good. And I wonder if you could just speak to us a little bit about that because I, I imagine there's a listener leading who's like, OK, so I did this PD or I'm trying to do this thing or I'm engaging in these conversations. How do I know if it's working? And what kind of information should I be collecting from folks in my community to figure out where to go next? What's effective, what's not effective? Does that question make sense? Yes. Yes. And, and I'd, I'd say that the um I put Gus's piece in there and earlier than the rest of the evaluation um mechanisms because I wanted people to say, even if they only took this one snapshot of a chapter and said we are gonna, we're gonna look at this book linearly and move one chapter at a time that you still start with the end in mind with the backward design of the professional learning plan.

But also the the ultimate end is kids learning and kids growing. And so Gusky that top level for him, that level five level is how is this impacting student growth? Right? And so that needs to be front and center. There are other pieces that are there as well that we are typically using where we uh we say, hey, at the end of this PD, let's have some the participants self report, how you felt about it. OK. That, that, that is just fine, the uh the outcomes were met. I've I was engaged, I strongly agree, right? That's awesome. So people were there, they complied and now we want to talk about how about are there pieces that you can tell they took away from the content? So maybe it's something as simple as we are having a conversation about getting clarity around vocabulary so that we can understand things like race is not the same as culture, which is not the same as nationality.

So I will no longer say the Ethiopian culture, right? I will no longer say the black culture, like those types of things, right? Um And we're able to say, OK, give us your definitions for those things, right? That's a different level of understanding. We're taking away some of the content we say, hey, here's a little case study. How would you respond to this? Right? And that, that's a different level of understanding. Now, we wanna be able to get into the classrooms or get into the the meeting rooms and hear these conversations and see if we see application, the stuff we've been, we've been discussing, right? We've been working on together, it's a different level, but ultimately, we want to get to that level where we can say folks have been in the now, you know, we won't be cause causation. But like folks who've been, we've been implementing these strategies for the last couple of months here are formative assessments based on that here. And then you can say, all right. So that's a, that's a piece of that, right? Um And then we can say over the years, we have some summative data that is sort of trending.

It says this stuff is working as well. Our kids are learning more. Um And it's correlated with our climate surveys that say our kids feel better connected to us, our kids feel better seen in our curriculum. Our kids feel more engaged with our instructional practices because they are more aligned with the things that they see in their home communities. So now we think we're making, we're making some difference. But once we get to that point, we also want to gain more uh more data than just the, the hard data. So like I named the test scores. That's awesome, right? But the observational data we got that, I mentioned climate surveys because we want to have some stakeholder voice data. And sometimes that's a one on one conversation, sometimes that's a focus group. Sometimes that's a that's a survey and that's awesome. Too oftentimes we use um academic interventions or sel um interventions or some other types of, of constructs to try to support um beyond the 9 to 3 class experience and sometimes within that 9 to 3 school day experience.

But those those supplemental supports, we also need to track, right? So we also need to say, hey, maybe we are incorporating, like we can just say the the number of supplemental supports that we are implementing is growing, right? So maybe there's a math group, maybe there's a parents club, maybe there's a, you know, um you name it uh a girls on the run group um to to for the physical health and well being. So and we can say those are there and we can measure the impacts of those. But we can also say or say that we have this number, but we can also say the students in this group. Now we can measure some of their other academic achievement outcomes and see if we see differences with the folks who participate in these supplemental supports um and the outcomes for, for the students. So there are a number of different ways that that you can, you can go about this, you can look at achievement climate well being. Um Yeah, you, you name it, everything can be measured, I guess was that Einstein said not everything that counts can be measured, not everything that measures can be counted, but there's a lot of stuff that can be counted um or measured that counts.

Yeah. And, and it makes me think of two things, one kind of the ongoing nature of measurement, right? And it's like you're saying, you know, this isn't just like right after the, the PD session or whatever, right? This is months down the road, what structures have changed? What impact have you had? How a student learning, like you're saying, over years, like how does this impact? And sometimes when we design PD experiences, I don't think we're always thoughtful about. And I say this too as a person who designs PD experiences, I'm not always thoughtful about what is the measurement plan down the road? Like how do I truly know the differences being made more than just like? Yeah, it felt, it felt positive to be and like I learned things like, OK, what's next and what is the impact? And then it also reminds me, I think this might have just been a brief anecdote, but there was a um researcher, I think that you, you quoted or cited that she um, was asking, she said that the best thing that comes from the best way to figure out what the staff needs is to ask the students or to talk to the students, right? And I was like, that's such a good point, right?

When you're talking about that student information, sometimes that PD plan also or like a, a modification of maybe an original PD plan comes from just like all right, students what's going on because, you know, best you're in those classrooms every day. So I think the idea of stakeholder voice that you're sharing, which represents so many of the things you just described in terms of how we collect the data, who we collect it from as well as that long term planning really resonates with me as you kind of talk through this stuff. And I'm hoping it's resonating with leaders who are listening as well because I think that's, that's really transformational, that potential. I agree. And there are some other pieces in the book that describe some data analysis protocols if, if folks need that as well. Yes, I, I mean, I am hoping every leader is like scrambling to grab this book now because I know I just want, I'm like excited to get to the last chapter and read that as well. Um One thing I'm wondering and I know we're, we're almost at time to start wrapping up here. But I'm curious to know like, what is, if you could categorize that there's probably multiple, but what is the biggest challenge that you think uh leaders or even school communities more broadly faced in doing anti racist work?

Well, and then how would you, how would you recommend people, like, you know, address that thing if you can slightly sorting through the other things. So I almost called it noise but it's not the um there, there's not often noise like the these are um competing priorities. Um So there's, there's a lot to, to do as a school leader, be that at the classroom level, at the building level, at the district level as a community member, even as a student, I mean, there's, there's a lot to try to juggle. Uh So I can see and I've often seen and heard in conversations with folks about this type of content. This is, this is great. This is cool, but I have school testing coming up, we're worried about security with um whether or not my kids can bring in clear backpacks or, you know, my parents are telling me that they, why do we have the safe space stickers up in my, in my um school building? I, I just, there's just so much going on.

I got, you know, you name the group screaming, screaming in the press or at school board meetings about these things and we're trying to, we're worried about free and reduced meals and we're worried about like you, you know, just sel there are so many competing priorities that this can get lost as another com competing priority. And the way I I try to help folks to frame this is that this is a part of the solution to all of the competing priorities. This is not one of the competing priorities, right? This this is a part of all of them. So when you think about holistic remedies for the obstacles for your students and their families, this is where you start. Um So Ivory Tolson wrote this book called No Bad Stats. And there's a, his piece is, it's a anti racist sort of bent to the book. I don't think he uses that word but is there's one piece in there one passage where he writes, don't believe when people tell you bad things about communities of color.

And his example was that there aren't enough people of color who wanna be teachers, it says check racism first, right? So I this is where we start and, and I love this country, right? I'm not going anywhere. All my stuff is here, right? Like I love this place. So this is my house too, right? So we wanna make it better for all of us. Um So, but I have to recognize that white supremacy is, is built into the foundation, right? If we were a computer it's a part of the hard drive. It's so no matter what operating system we lay on top. Right, the outcome is still set before we start. And so I think recognizing that this work, whether you call it anti racism or if you have to call it equity in your state or if you have to call it something else um belonging that you can still get there where everybody, everybody belongs.

Thank you so much for that answer. I, I think that that really hit the nail on the head. I think for a lot of folks who are listening and can and can resonate with that. And I, I think we've talked about a lot of things and your book goes into even more of those things and even more detail. So I encourage folks to, to check that out. I think one question that I have is as folks are kind of listening to the wrap up, what is like the one big first step that someone could take is like, I'm literally turning off the episode in five minutes and I'm gonna go do a thing right now. One thing, what do you think the best first step would be? You need to talk to somebody. So find an accountability partner, begin having these conversations about what you claim you wanna do or what you claim you were going to do. Um be a sounding board for that, for that partner as well. And, and push each other to learn, to learn more. That is great. I love that. So the final two questions I have for our wrap up, one is purely for fun. It does not even have to relate to education.

Although it can, what is something that you personally have been learning about lately? So I just finished the book um supporting and retaining support and retain Educators of Color by Andrea Terrero Gabbidon. I think she's a professor, I think at Temple in, in Philadelphia. And she writes very eloquently about creating culturally affirming spaces in schools so that more folks wanna stay in the classroom in the school building because we spend so much time thinking about the teacher shortage and it, it is not just a recruitment effort, it's a retention effort way more. And so that's where my head is now. My, my next um book is likely to be around affinity groups and affinity spaces and how they, they support students, staff and um community members.

Wow, that's gonna be excellent and keep a lookout for that everybody because that's gonna be great. Um And, and finally, I think people are going to want to keep a lookout for that book and other things connect with you, invite you to do PD all the, all the things where do you recommend people go to get in touch with you or to follow your work? You can find, you can email me at Damon or no at D Harris D, the letter D Harris at Bond educators.org Bond educators.org. That's by nonprofit um that supports the recruitment and retention of black and brown men in education. You can also find me on, on X at Damon D A ma N underscore Harris. You can find me on Instagram. Hopefully, by the time it airs, I'll have some kind of profile there. I I don't post often enough. My publisher is telling me so I'm working on it. Um But Damon D A Ma N Harris, no underscore lastly, I'm on linkedin.

That's where I'm the most active. So you can find me there. And Facebook has the the anti racist school leader is also a place there as well. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Damon. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you. It was great to talk to you li if you like this episode, I bet you'll be just as jazz as I am about my coaching program for increasing student led discussions in your school, Shane, Sapir and Jamila Dugan talk about a pedagogy of student voice in their book street data. They say students should be talking for 75% of class time. Do students in your school talk for 75% of each class period? I would love for you to walk into any classroom in your community and see this in action if you're smiling to yourself as you listen right now, grab 20 minutes on my calendar to brainstorm, how I can help you make this big dream a reality. I'll help you build a comprehensive plan from full day trainings and discussion protocols like circle and Socratic seminar to follow up classroom visits where I can plan witness and debrief discussion based lessons with your teachers. Sign up for a nerdy no strings attached to brainstorm. Call at Lindsay, Beth lions.com/contact. Until next time, leaders think big act brave and be your best self. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there, explore more podcasts at teach better.com/podcasts and we'll see you at the next episode.