their sole proprietors, there's nobody helping them. They probably don't have professional advice. They don't know how to keep books and records so they make mistakes and they forget to report income they overstayed expenses. I mean I can't tell you some of the, the returns that I've seen that people did themselves. We know the building wealth comes from owning businesses and making investments yet. Why still do nearly half of businesses fail in the first five years and why do others lose it all in their investments. Welcome to the wealth watchers podcast, your resource for building a massive network. We bring real stories from real people who are experts in business and investing, who will share secrets and actionable strategies to amassing wealth and achieving success brought to you by happy camper capital and now your hosts Justin hog it and adam lindy. Yeah, yeah. Mhm. Welcome back to the wealth watchers podcast. I'm your host, Adam, lindy with me is my co host Justin Hog it Justin how are you today? Hey doing well, adam, you know, it's a, it's a great day in Iowa.
The kids are out having a blast. Are still out there swimming, playing baseball gaga ball volleyball. I mean they're just having a blast with all these kids out here kind of finishing up their summer so it's fun to see no doubt. Yeah, absolutely enjoying it out here. Um and of course enjoying these breaks to come into the air conditioning and have conversations with fun people. So it's definitely needed. Yeah. Well without further ado I'll bring our guests today joe joe is the Ceo and founder of Bedrock business builders. So joe how are you doing today? I'm doing great. All right, well thanks for coming on with us today. Thanks for having me. But and I got to tell you, I don't believe in coincidences. And the fact that you guys are in Iowa is amazing because you know tonight uh they're gonna have the Field of dreams baseball game. The Yankees are playing the web, the white sox and I'm a big yankee fan. Got you. Yeah, I know, I know you're not doing video but you can see the big new york baseball thing behind me. So I'm gonna be watching that tonight.
I can hear it in your voice. Yeah. And I looked into that game, I was like, you know what, let's take the family there. Well you know what tickets are like $1200 right now, wow. Limited seating that Yeah, yep, I'm watching, I'm watching it. Yeah our campground that were on the, it's surrounded by cornfields and they're about nine ft tall and I keep hearing this voice, you know telling me to go build it and $1200. I might. That's awesome. But thanks for having me guys. Absolutely joe. Uh Well you know obviously we're going to dive into some strategies for newer business owners or maybe even people who've been in business for a while but before we do that joe um I want to give you a chance to introduce yourself. Maybe share a little background about you and really wide as you do what you do? Sure I love I love uh talking about my story and not because it's about me because a lot of people can relate to it. Uh I'm an entrepreneur that happens at the C. P. A. License. I I started my first business when I was 10. It was a casino in my driveway.
And you know there's a back story behind that. But I remember saying thinking to myself why does anybody have a job when you could just make money and have fun? And I went with that my whole life When I was 17 my my dad realized that I was hanging out with the wrong crowd. I was on the wrong path. These were kids that I hung that I grew up with but they started getting into trouble. And uh he said to me at a family picnic that he pointed to one of my cousins, he said that guy is a C. P. A. I said that's great what is the C. P. A. And all he told me, I remember it like it was yesterday he said Cps run businesses and other people come to them for business advice and I said well then I'm going to be a C. P. A. I didn't know that meant I was going to be doing accounting. I thought it meant I was gonna be running businesses. So I resented my father for about 25 years saying like, what did you do?
Why did you do this to me? And I could have been somebody. Uh and then I started educating myself on business and and stuff that they don't teach you in C. P. A. School about, you know, it starts with your mindset. I read a book called The Science of Getting Rich, which told me that there's no competition, There's plenty of business out there for everyone. And and it started me on a journey from being a, you know what I would say, a typical, you know, accountant to in corporate work helping rich people get richer uh and and trying to keep other small business owners out of trouble. And about two years ago I decided, you know, I had an epiphany said, I want to change the world and I'm not gonna do it working for the with these kinds of clients. So I did some market research uh about who my ideal client was, who needed, who needed my help the most. And it turned out that it was the people that had the least amount of money, sole proprietors is over 25 million of them.
At a 30 million businesses stole proprietors get hammered by the I. R. S. By the business community in general. They have no protection and even people have become llcs. They don't realize that they're still classified assault proprietors. So I went on this mission to start educating people and we, we set up Bedrock business builders really to provide affordable basic financial services, bookkeeping, accounting, tax preparation, tax resolutions. And we set up Bedrock University as a free resource for for people to go and get, you know, we have courses up there when we do workshops, we put them up there, we have free workshops, we have a free master minor and it's all to, to really help people that are totally confused, totally uh frustrated and by the burden of of the stuff that I that we do the administrative side.
So that's my story in a nutshell. You know, it's one of the questions I've gotten a lot from people in the past of course. And you hit it right on the head is, you know, when do I flip the switch from being a sole proprietor to, you know, an S corp or you know, what's right away right away. Yeah. And I could go into why ah I have a Youtube channel with all this is what I talk about why you need to do it right away. Uh you know, and the pros and cons of doing it. But the answer is right away got it. Because there's always been in the past different stories about the income threshold yuet because it's going to cost different amounts for the tax filings. But if you're shaking your head, so telling me that you just need to do it regardless. Well, what people don't realize are, is when you go into business, you have deductions right away. And this is one of the things I talk about, because when you have a business, all of a sudden stuff that you have that was, that were personal in nature become business property and you could actually write that stuff off stuff like your car, your computer, your cell phone, office furniture, you can start writing off, you know, office in the home expense.
Now, even if you don't make any money and most businesses don't make money in the beginning, what you're doing is you could capture those expenses for future years And you know, so let's say you wind up with $20, and loss carry, forwards. you make 20 or 30,000, you know, you're like, oh, I made all this money now, Well, you really broke even, but now you're paying zero taxes, okay? If you don't do that, When you make 2030 grand, you're paying taxes on it. People don't realize I come across it all the time and I'm like this, this is why you sulk why small businesses go out of business were at a disadvantage. A major disadvantage. Yeah. The tax, the tax implication for small business owners is huge. And I know that of course from reading robert, Kiyosaki, but you know, this is something that I think a lot of of small business owners do.
So what do you think is getting in the way of them taking a step uh smoke and mirrors. The best way to do business is is by being an escort. The S Corp was created in 1958 because of the big financial gap between corporations and sole proprietors. It was complicated and expensive to be a corporation. That is what they call double taxation. Okay so you had to have capital, you had to have money, you had to have a lawyer, an accountant to be a corporation. So and sole proprietors, God had no tax benefits at all, no protection. So they came up with this S corp category which meant there was no double taxation and and you can get legal protection and you could open up a whole range of tax benefits as an escort. The government forgot to tell everybody, You know when I was growing up it was like milk makes you healthy. I don't know how old you guys are, but it was all it was like Okay we'll drink milk.
Well now 30 years later we find out that milk isn't that healthy anymore. So you could go on the internet and you will not find anything unless you go to my website, my youtube channel that talks about the benefits of being an escort. What the S. B. A. And the I. R. S. Puts out there is that it's simple to be assault proprietor. It's the simplest way to do. Well guess what? You don't even have a choice you're not making a choice. When you go into business you're automatically assault proprietor. And people don't realize that sole proprietors get targeted by the I. R. S. For audits because sole proprietors are uninformed business owners. And the Irs knows this because if they were informed, if they had an account in the lawyer they would have an entity and not an L. L. C. You know that that's the other thing. All you see up there, I can't tell you how many clients go to go to these online uh entity.
Cos I don't want to name any names. But I find out that they set them up with an L. L. Say the iris doesn't know what an L. L. C. Is. There's no form for an L. L. C. So what we do with LLC is we convert them to a corporation and then usually two to become an escort. So it's really bad information. And also there's, yes it's just misinformation. You know I came from the C. P. A. World C. P. A. Farms and I assumed that most businesses were s corpse because that's what we did if they came in as a sole proprietor and they started a new business we made them s corpse. And when I found out that there were actually 25 million sole proprietors. I felt like I had my head in the sand. I didn't, I thought when I went on the S. B. A. Website that they call them non employer firms, they don't call themselves proprietors and that's by design.
I thought a non employer firm we're entities that only had themselves as employees and that. So I'm like that's why there's bad information is misinformation and it comes down to control. The government doesn't want sole proprietors to become s corpse. It would drain the Social Security system. So a couple of things did you learn by experience on this? How did this come up originally for you? Honestly, a friend of mine created this marketing program and I found it and going through my practice. I said, oh my God, my my most profitable profitable best client are the smallest ones. Now my small clients were just solo preneurs, but I had incorporated them. So I said so I dug deeper. This was in 2016 I started and it wasn't until 2019 that just by doing this marketing research, I came across that term non employee firms and I said, what do they mean by that?
And it was like a light bulb went off Just think about this this 30 million businesses in the United States, 25 million have not taken the next step. And I had to ask myself why is that? And I just came to the conclusion like it's because the government doesn't want them to convert, they lose control. The government has less control over corporations than individuals. Okay. And what about the S corp classification on an L. L. C. If I'm not mistaken At the time? So uh oh yeah there's a form 88 32. It's very simple. You just say oh we we set up as an LLC but we want to be taxed as a corporation, that's the first step. And then to be an S. Corp there's another election. So not everybody should be an S. Corp right off the bat. It depends on their their current tax situation. Okay. But so I don't want people going out there and saying oh I want to be an S.
Corp. It you've got to look at the tax benefits and it's all timing. But nobody nobody should be doing business as a sole proprietor. So what is the threshold then after somebody's filed that 88-32, that they should really consider, you know becoming a full escort? Well I think the first thing you gotta decide uh is are you in this uh seriously is this a serious, It could be a side gig, It could be a full fledged business. So if you're in it, seriously you really got to consider looking at creating a corporate entity? So there is no dollar threshold. It's what is your intention if you intend on making money you want to be an escort. And if you're in business and you don't intend to making money I think you need to get start a hobby. Okay, now, you know, and I got to mention there's also the the accidental salt proprietors, there's people that like drive uber cars or become amazon affiliates, they don't even realize that they have a business.
My son in law is a prime example. He was selling uh posters as a hobby. He buys and sells, you know, ah posters. Well he's collecting money on on the internet through Ebay and the I. R. S. Is going to issue him a 10 99. So I told him, I said whether you like it or not, you're in business. So we created an S corp and now he could ride off part of his house, everything that's related to the, to the business interesting. Yeah, that's definitely different from the advice I've heard in the past. So we might be, I want to make sure we're not getting ahead of ourselves if a business owners listening, whether they're new in business, you know, and unintended, you know, you know, uh soul entrepreneur or if they had maybe had been for a while and just haven't taken the leap, what's the first step, you know, I believe that you've got to educate yourself if you're in business, you know, I I have people in my network that are extremely, extremely successful, you got to look at what successful people do, that's what Tony Robbins says right, if you want to be an expert marksman, find out what the expert marksman do, that's what he says.
So I look at what successful entrepreneurs do and they will all tell you that you gotta know your numbers and you've got to have an accountant, you gotta have bookkeeper, it's it's, it's almost like driving a car without insurance, who would do that, you know? Yeah, so you've got in your education um now where do we go? You got to take action, You know, if if you're serious about your business, it's a 24 7 thing that doesn't mean you want to be in your business 24 7, but it's, it's a, it's a moving target, it's like a living thing, it's like having a baby, you got to take care of it, you know, you've got to nurture it, you gotta, you gotta plan for problems, you've got to look at your cash flow and you know, that's just the way it is, You just, it's all about education, we never use, if you're in business, you should never stop trying to learn.
I never stopped, I learn every day, I try to learn and I teach and I think that that's one of everybody's responsibilities, you know, we could all help people, I know you guys are helping people with this kind of podcast, so it's, it's really about, you can't start a business and just being social media, you can't be in business and just try to generate revenue by getting clients. We have a lot of ways to generate cash flow without actually getting new clients. And I don't know if that's a new concept to you, but that's what we do. We find money. Yeah. Because it's not, that's a beautiful yeah, it's about the money you keep, it's what you keep, it's what you keep. And that's what, that's our philosophy. We're like, we're looking for, where are the every I've never gotten a client where we didn't find money for them and it's usually more money than what they got to pay us so we can justify our phase.
I hope that's the case. Yeah. What were the biggest opportunities and what are the biggest mistakes that you're seeing people make? Ah there's so many opportunities now. You know, I have a friend, john Limbach, I consider him like uh I don't want to put them up too high, but he he's uh he's my guru about business, one of them. And and he said because of all the things that have happened, Covid believe it or not, uh there are more opportunities now for for new business owners than any time in history. I mean, I have, I have a friend that's making money by showing people how to quilt. She's actually making a chorus on how to quilt. And she never thought that she was like, how can I make money with Welton? Because she didn't see the big picture. She thought she had to make a quilt and sell it. No, she could teach people at. So the opportunities are out there and I think the biggest mistake that new business owners are making is they overcomplicate everything.
They get too entrenched and things like social media, they don't have a, they don't even know what they're selling or who they're selling it to. They don't, they don't do the research to try to figure this stuff out and they wind up wasting a lot of money. They buy expensive coaches, coaching programs, tools that they never use. Uh, you know, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint. So if I had to put it in a nutshell, I would say people want results too quickly. They're not willing to put the time and effort and to learn. Yeah. They tried to spend their way to success as something I've often seen in the past two, just like kind of like you mentioned spending all that money expecting and yeah, this is one of the things I did not buy it. I've tried, yeah. One of the things that gives me a lot of distaste is you have to spend money to make money. I don't, I don't like that one. It just doesn't sit well with me. That might have been true at one time, but not anymore. Right? So, you know, I, I don't know personally joe if you're an advocate.
You know, I'm a big fan of profit. first, I've implemented that in my businesses and has become a great way for me to, you know, maybe just at a day to day or at least twice a month level, you know, monitor my cash flow. Do you have anything along those lines that you advocate? Uh I've heard about that, I love that, you know, Annie you need a system, a system of accountability. So I just, I created a budget template, that's where I start. I'm like what is my cash flower? You need two things to have a real business, you need sales and you need cash flow. I've seen plenty of people that had plenty of sales but we're broke and I've seen the opposite and neither one is is good. So I believe profit first is one of those systems where you just keep updating a correct Yeah, the general premise and you know the banks don't like it. I'll tell you what, if you don't have the right bank, you can take a long time to set up because you have to have five accounts for each business. You have, you have an income account, you have your profit account, your owners compensation account, your tax account and then you have your operating expenses account and you've got different distribution levels set up and twice a month you go in and you take all the income and you spread it out across the accounts, but you always pay yourself first as the premise and you make the business live on what's left.
So the idea is to run a lean business and always be improving it. I love that, I love that. Yeah. So um so obviously we talked about you know maybe some of the potential pitfalls um you know what other considerations should a new business owner make or maybe somebody who just realizes that holy cow, I've been this, you know, L. L. C. The sole proprietor for too long. Um you know what, what what else is on the table. So the first thing a new business owner needs to do is not beat themselves over the head. Yeah, I have coaches, I have mentors and even the most successful people make mistakes and things hardly ever go as we planned and especially if you're a solo premature, like I am uh huh we were isolated a lot, you know I try not to isolate, I try to reach out to people, be part of masterminds, coaches, mentors talk to people, but a lot of times you know you get into the self talk like, oh if I only did this different or why am I doing this only to find out that everyone else in business is going through the same thing.
We all go through it, nobody is unique and you've got to recognize that it's going to be hard and you need help. We all need help. We need support. I hope that answered your question. No it does and that's absolutely true because as you mentioned of course you said 25 million people are in this position for 25 million. I think you said 25 million businesses are in this position. So um you also mentioned to that they're the most likely to be audited and why is that? Yeah it's okay if you look at the I. R. S. And what their mission is and and I talk about this there's four made main divisions of the I. R. S. Ideal mainly with the small businesses and self employed division and if you go on their website because it's all public knowledge their mission is to collect taxes. Okay that's it. They're the biggest collection agency in the world. So they're targeting where are we going to get the most money?
Now? There's another division that deals with large corporations like amazon and Microsoft and that's a whole different level. Those those businesses are audited. They the I. R. S. Actually has offices in those companies because it's like a daily it's always being audited. So to them it's just an expense. It's like okay we gotta pay the auditors to deal with the I. R. S. Sole proprietors are usually their sole proprietors. There's nobody helping them. They probably don't have professional advice. They don't know how to keep books and records. So they make mistakes and they forget to report income. They overstayed expenses. I mean I can't tell you some of the the returns that I've seen that people did themselves. So the iris looks at this and they're like this is like shooting fish in a barrel. And and it's gonna get worse. The i. r. s. is hiring another 87,000 right now. They only have like 85,000 employees.
They're Gonna Hire 87,000 revenue agents and revenue officers. What those people do is they audit and they collect And the whole reason is to pay for this pandemic. They want to collect an extra $7 trillion. And what they say is unpaid taxes and the bulk of that are sole proprietors. So let me just give you another another point why Social Security If a sole proprietor makes $20,000 which is below the poverty level, They still have to pay $3,000 in self employment acts. S corpse. Don't pay that s corpse have a a uh they can make a decision on how much they pay themselves on payroll. Okay so they got latitude. Ah So when an i. r. s. Agent goes in and finds $20,000 worth of adjustments That's 3000 to social security right away.
Social Security needs the money. You take that away from Social Security, the you're not collecting it, you know. So it's it's complicated but I like to try to make these issues simple. And my goal is to take at least 10 million of those sole proprietors and make them into S. corpse. Okay that'll bankrupt Social Security but I don't care because that's not my problem. Now. What other tax audit triggers might there be? Well I think the first one is if you're a sole proprietor if you make let's say over 75 grand gross And you do your own tax return, that's probably the number one audit trigger. Even if you go to H. And R. Block or orangey Brenner you're less likely to get audited because the I. R. S. Is saying well they went to a professional so you know they'd rather go after the people that try to do with themselves.
Well yeah and as you mentioned that they're most likely to overstate deductions. You know they're going to be looking at that tax liability especially if they're using something like TurboTax and trying to figure out how to make that number changed to avoid that. Home officer got big pretty quick. You know many clients I've gotten from TurboTax, TurboTax probably causes more tax audits then. I mean terrible tax has been a good friend of mine, a good friend of the I. R. S. I'm sure to, oh yeah it's hard enough to know the tax laws now you're gonna learn a software program toe. Right. Right. And what else might trigger it then? You know like so if people are overestimating their office maybe their cable or whatever. I'll tell you what the I. R. S. Is really looking at now. They're looking at earned income tax credits. Okay because there was a lot of fraud with people claiming like other people's Children. So even as an accountant I have to go through this whole litany of questions that I have to answer and document that I've asked them.
So if you're taking like a child tax credit, a the earned income tax credit that that's a flag. Okay. Another thing that they, you know, they also have very sophisticated matching programs. You know it used to be like when you sold the stock, you had to keep your records and the I. R. S. Accepted them all this stuff gets transmitted right to the I. R. S. Right away. So if you make a mistake on your return that's going to trigger an audit. Got it. Yeah. It makes me wonder if they're getting all the info, why I have to put it in a form for them. You know I thought the same thing like they already have it, why am I putting it in here again? It's a waste of time. It seems it's like playing battleship. They've got the map in front of them. Why am I actually going there? You know it is like a game, they're like oh you didn't report this correctly. We know what it was. I'm like well then why did you even ask me?
It's a good point but listen it keeps me in business. Yeah well I I could make an argument for flat tax but that's another day. Listen I'm all for that. Let's eliminate tax preparation altogether. I'll find another way to make money. So um you have some tools that you've started. Seems like the main theme here is to get help on your preparation and uh accounting needs. So what tools do you have? Uh we have a lot of tolls uh you know people so if you sign up for my my CFO package we we open up the doors for everything, all of our content. Uh I would start for free. You could just go to my Youtube channel because all the stuff that we talked about I talked about almost every night. Ah So the Youtube channel we have a free mastermind on Saturdays, you can go to mastermind with jodi Ciara ah and we do a lot of interviews, we do podcast just like you so we we we have a nice network of a lot of business experts that think like I think you know you don't have to spend a lot of money you can't buy success so it's all about teaching and then if you want to become a client, you know we have your back great.
Yeah well it sounds to me like the blueprint to get started as simple anyway. You get the education, you make sure you're serious about what you're doing then you form that escort and you make sure that you got the right people in your in your corner. You know looking at your tax obligations with you. That's about sum it up joe that's it. It's pretty simple. It's not easy. This is what they tell me. It's not it's never it's not supposed to be easy. If it was easy everyone would be doing it right. If there was an easy business I would pick it okay but we can make it simple. We make it simple for you so that you're not losing sleep overnight saying what am I doing? Yeah. Well tell you what you're doing whether it's good or not right? It tell us a little about your CFO program. So this is something we put together based on what people really need. They need basic bookkeeping which we provide on a monthly basis and they need to know that they have their back covered.
Because what happens is once you incorporate it becomes public record, not only does the I. R. S. And your state government know that you're in business but so does the whole world and you start getting letters. There's no way around that. So the last thing people want and I know this from experience. I get letters from the government. I'm like oh my God what is this? But I know how to handle it. So we have a system with our Cfl clients when they get a ladder They just uploaded. I get it immediately and like within 10 seconds I could tell them if it's important or not. Yeah got it and good. No I'm sorry that that's something I don't think any any accounting firm in the world offers. But I I do that because I've had that situation when I first started my business. When I first started in business I got a letter from new york state saying uh they had a tax warrant and I thought it was getting arrested And I'm like no that's not good.
So that that's what it covers. Like all the basic uh you know bookkeeping, accounting and tax services that that you need now the $47 starts with you know the small companies to start ups but you know everything we do is very affordable. Yeah and that is also you said it includes tax preparation as well. No the taxes are separate, that's an annual fee which we we give a flat fee for that. So people, it costs people about 1600 bucks a year to have all of our services and and that means our support from our community as well. It's not just about the account and we want people to succeed in business. Yeah absolutely. Um Well joe obviously you've got a lot. You you offered there, you mentioned the other Youtube channel, how can people find that? Just go to youtube and google I guess Bedrock business builders or joe the charity you know it'll it should just come up and then the mastermind, how is that found?
That's a mastermind with jodi Ciara dot com. That's D I C H I A R A. Perfect. And is that the best way for someone to get in touch with you or is there another means? That's a good way? You can if you want to book a chat with me, you can go to time with joe dot com. Uh Don't book a chat if you wanna network or you know, a joint venture with me, you can go to the mastermind with jodi charity if you want to do that. But if you want to talk about your taxes, your accounting, your your business. That's what time with joe is for. All right, perfect joe. Well, thank you for sharing that today. Before we part ways, we're going to delve into our wealth watchers brain pick so I'll adjust and take that away. All right, joe. We got five questions for you. The first question is, what is your superpower or unique natural ability? That's making it complicated situation simple for people. I love that one. If you were to go Back 3-5 years, what might you have done differently that you wish you could have? You know, I go through this? Uh I don't think I would have done anything differently.
Not that everything went perfect, nothing ever goes perfect. There's a lot of pain and suffering. There always is. But I'm afraid that if I changed anything, I wouldn't be where I am right now. got it. Where are you headed? In the next 3-5 years hopefully to incorporate 10 million sole proprietors and I can't do it myself. So if there's other accounts of the like minded people connect with me because we need help. I'm on a mission. I'm on a mission. I hope we can help you get there as well. What is uh what's your favorite book on business or money? The science of Getting rich by Wallace wattles. They made the movie The secret based on that buck. Oh yeah, I've seen that. And it's pretty simple. So you know, there's enough food in the world that nobody has to be hungry. There's enough building material that nobody has to be homeless. And there's enough business out there that anybody can become rich if they just think the right way and act the right way.
Okay and looking back what has been your biggest ah ha moment When I found out there were 25 million sole proprietors because I said this is what I was born for. These are the people that need my help. Alright, yeah, lots of people to help out there. Well, good luck and all that. And definitely thanks for sharing your tips here with us, joe thank you for visiting us today. And just before we wrap up because I do know that some of our listeners, we have actually several cps listening. You mentioned you are growing your team. If somebody was interested in joining you on your mission, how would they get in touch with that time with jail time with you? And I should mention we started working with other C. P. A firms that were, that are overwhelmed because you know, we have a large scalable team, we can do the back office work, all the bookkeeping tax prep and we're finding that there's a big need out there because there there's guys out there that that were like me with the C A C P a practice trying to do with themselves and we can offer that that that support for them.
Perfect. Well joe appreciate having you on today. Thanks for sharing, yep. Thanks joe. You're welcome anytime. This has been another episode of the wealth Watchers podcast. I'm your host, Adam Lundy from my co host, Justin Hog. And I thank you for listening. All right guys. Thanks a lot. Until next time. Thank you for listening to wealth watchers. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review on your podcast player of choice. If you found value in this episode, please share it with one person. You know who could benefit from these tools and strategies for more information on wealth watchers please visit Happy Camper capital dot com. Mhm. Mhm