Hello fellow runners, I'm your host, Finn Melanson and this is the run to the top podcast, the podcast dedicated to making you a better runner. With each and every episode we are created and produced by the expert team of coaches here at runners connect dot net where you can find the best running information on the internet as well as training plans to fit every runner in every budget when it comes to executing workouts, understanding aspects like pace, distance and duration might already be at the top of your mind, but how much thought have you given to the importance of the rest intervals in your workouts? Can you distinguish between what you need for something like a neuro muscular based workout versus the rest you might need for threshold intervals. Come to think of it, you might have other questions too, like on those days where things aren't clicking, when does it make the most sense to stop a workout?
And if so when is it Prudent to move it to the next day? Well, this is another episode of the run to the top with runners connect coaches, Dylan Bellis and Rory Moynihan who discussed the appropriate rest intervals and rest paces associated with five intensities, neuro muscular speed, work below three K speed work below 10-K threshold intervals. And Temple runs. They also address those questions I mentioned about when you should stop the workout and whether you should consider moving those missed workouts to another day with that, let's tune in to hear their discussion about rest intervals during workouts. If you're looking for better and safer headphones while you run, then you need to check out the dance there. Open ear design delivers premium sound while still allowing you to hear your surroundings to stay safe. I'll tell you more about them later in the episode, but if you're looking for a great christmas or New Year's gift for the runner in your family, head to Ola dance dot com backslash R. T. T. T. This podcast is also brought to you by Met pro world renowned concierge nutrition, fitness and lifestyle coaching company using metabolic profiling, the Met pro team of experts analyzes your metabolism and provides an individualized approach to obtaining your goals run to the top listeners receive a complimentary metabolic profiling assessment in a 30 minute consultation with a Met pro expert to claim this offer.
Head to Met pro dot co backslash R T T. T. Hello everyone and welcome back to tempo talks, this is Coach Stone Bella's, this coach Roy moore again and today we're going to talk to you about recovery and specifically the recovery between your interval sessions and workouts and how long what type of recovery this should be, whether it's walking jogging, running at a certain pace and how we we can manipulate this to ultimately achieve the right goal or purpose of the day. So Rory when you're heading into a workout. Tell us what is the first thing that we should always know while you know, before we actually begin the workout itself. Yeah, you got to know the purpose of the workout. So typically if you have a coach or maybe you're training yourself, you need to know why you're doing that. Those set intervals, for example. So for instance, we may have athletes who are doing 408 hundreds and speed days can be kind of fun because you want to go fast and hit those times.
But sometimes our athletes will overemphasize the speed, we'll go to fast during the harder portion and they'll just take a lot of time for rest. So, for instance, if you're doing 800 reps and you're really gunning the eight hundreds and giving yourself, say three minutes of standing or walking rest, um if your focus is the five K or not necessarily training the system as specifically as you could be sure. Sure. Yeah. So number one thing is to know why you're doing something right? Again, we work with being that we work because most of our clients are, our athletes are online, right? So, given that we don't we don't actually always know what they're doing between the harder portions of the workouts, right? So we see the splits, they tell us how it went, but we don't know if they're just standing around there feeling with their phones, you know, we don't actually get the full picture of it. So it's important for us to put that out there. So that when we're talking with our athletes, they know exactly what to do and when to do and how to do it. And it could also come back on Coaches too, because sometimes I think we're not as descriptive, just say recovery 90 seconds, right?
And we could point out what that is, especially early on in treating. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Again, if if I was to go back, you know when I first started running, I had no clue, you know, I think we all were trying to run as fast as we could and then just stand around and we can write, I can very vividly remember one of my very first workout that I ever did And it was just a set of 800, I think we did four or five of them. And what would happen is we would run as hard as we can, we would lay on the ground just huffing and puffing and before we try to muster up the energy to repeat that process and you know, looking back, it's probably not the smartest thing. Sounds familiar. Yeah. So anyways, so we're gonna talk to you about a few key um paces intensities that we're gonna talk about, the recoveries between and how exactly we would want to see those recoveries being focused on and how those can adapt these five, five paces intensities are gonna be neuro muscular work. Okay, that's number one, second one is gonna be speed work. So in in our in our idea speed work, this is gonna be anywhere from the anaerobic endurance side thing, So like 800 to all that to your true vo two max, which will typically between six and 10 minutes for a true vo two, the next one will be heroic.
Power, critical velocity type of pace work. This is typically designated to five K. To 10-K. Work a lot of times. Again, this the designation of what we call it changes on how fast you're running of course. So keep that in mind. Last two would be threshold running, So anaerobic threshold and your tempo pace. So for us this will be, you know, anywhere from like half marathon to marathon type of pace work. Cool. So you want to kick us off with the first type of training. And so this is gonna be our fastest type of training that we do. Can you give us a brief explanation of that type of work and what it consists of and how we can manipulate the recoveries? Yeah, so when we're talking about muscular work, we're going to be talking about those really fast intense speed intervals. If you're a member of runners connect what we really emphasize and other programs do as well would be strides when you're doing this and then uphill sprints. So in this case if you're talking about the rest period, there's some workouts that we assign.
I know you've done this where you do as short as six second sprint intervals up the hill. Now those are very intense, it sounds short, but it really adds up. If you do a few of those, you would actually want a 1 to 10 ratio for rest. So you're looking at 60 up to 60 seconds just to recover from that. So in these more intensive scenarios, this would be a case where you might want to have a standing recovery. You Yeah. And what's really important to note here with the neuro muscular work too, is that you might feel as though you're completely recovered, right? We can all sprint up a hill for 6-10 seconds, walk back down and feel as though we're ready to go and a lot of times we are, but that's not, we're not really working the aerobic component of it, right? We're really trying to cut a little bit deeper there, you know, work the nervous system in a way that helps us create a better engagement. So to be able to hit these faster type of work and really get the most out of it, a big high amount of recovery is required. Um, did your college have a track program, like sprinters at all?
You didn't? So, you know? Yeah. So if you're familiar with, you know, with athletes who are running the 102 104 100 there's a lot of workouts that from a distance runner's perspective, you would think, man, they didn't really do anything today, but it's incredibly demanding taxes and there again, they're doing a lot of this, your muscular work because it's very explosive, very fast acting energy system. So, again, as distance runners, we can still apply it right now in terms of the hills, because I know that's something you do. Yes. Are you walking down the hill for that recovery is very so it will vary, I will typically, I'll run that hill really fast as hard as I can, a good grade, and then I'll take a couple of seconds kind of jog down. And then from there, I'm just kind of walking kind of get myself composed and getting ready to really be fully engaged and working as hard as I can up the hill again. So, a lot of times it will be standing, but I'll kind of let the momentum of the hill just kind of drag me down.
But the goal there is really just to make sure that you're recovered. We don't want Go and run for 60 seconds. No, of course, yeah, you want to take us to the next category? Yes, So, the next category, again, we're gonna we're gonna call this anywhere from like the anaerobic endurance. So, all the way to go to. So, anywhere from 800 m pace to around your three K pace, two mile pace for most runners. Again, a lot of variability between the speed and the time it takes and what we're categorizing these as Okay, so typically for this type of work I recommend, and again, we're really focusing here on the speed, right, the pace of it. And I generally recommend a one at least 1 to 1 recovery, but if not sometimes all the way up to 123. So that means if, let's say I run A 200 at around my mile pace maybe a little bit faster, I want to make sure that I at least have another 200 years or the amount of time that it took to do that 200.
So again, I'm not doing a lot of reps at mile pace. So again, I'm going out running 230 seconds, 32 seconds, whatever it is, I'm very unlikely to take 32 seconds recovery. Right? Most of the time it'll be between a minute to a minute and 30 because I want to make sure that I'm using that recovery to make sure that I can repeat that process for the amount of volume. Again, as distance runners, we're not training, you know, from marathon runners, in our, in our sense, we're not necessarily training for the mile. Right? So this work is just designated to help us be more efficient at the top end speed because that trickles up these sessions can be done with a standing recovery can be done with a walking recovery can be done with a jogging recovery, that's fine, I think either one is fine. Um given the situation, so for example, if I'm doing four hundreds at mile pace, that's a pretty hard run, right? So I'm probably less likely to want to do a job there because I want to focus on the speed, I'm not working, I don't want to make it any more aerobic than I need it to be.
So for that type of workout, you know, I maybe we'll just stay around the start line, walk like actively standing, right, kind of just walking around and giving myself that time, whether it's 121123, whatever is that we feel it's best to hit that pace because the pace is important. And then starting up my next repetition. And I'd like to add on to that because you painted that picture early on where it was college, right? Where you are on those workouts and you're kind of gasping for breath in between. So as a high school coach, you know, I would assign some, my athletes paces based on what I thought their ability was, but it seems like workout on workout days and want to impress coach and they'd be coming in with some of these intervals and they'd be finishing up and hands on their knees hunched over really tired or Even worse, like laying on the ground, you know, looking up at the sky and they have about 60 seconds to get it together right? So again, hopefully you're not, you know, struggling that hard.
But if you are doing the standing walking rest, obviously it's a common tip just to walk with your hands up behind your head to open up the diaphragm, you know, improve oxygen flowing. And these types of workouts to, we're not doing a ton of volume, right? Not a ton of volume, but, you know, you want to make sure that you can repeat it as efficiently and as intact as possible. Right? So, again, this type of workout might be pretty hard, right? Mile pace is tough, 100 paces even tougher, you know, that's that's really hard work. Now, as we talk about this next one, which will be like five or 10-K type of pacing work. If you're doing 400 at that, you should not be feeling like it was your gasping for air, right? Because that was that that would not be the purpose of that workout. So again, we'll talk about recoveries and you know, just briefly, one more time. Is that 123? You know, I'd say if I run 400 let's say I do it in 65 seconds, 105. You know, I want to make sure that I'm taking at least another minute minute five seconds all up to three if that's a really hard session and again, it's time in places what really matters for those types of sessions.
But I typically see athletes and the athletes that I'm working with. I will recommend that those are walking rests just so that you're not making that any more aerobic than needed. But that doesn't mean that you know, you you stop and piddle on your phone and do those sort of things. Um That's no go. Okay. So the next one will be five K, 10-K work. We're gonna call it, you know, power work to your critical velocity type of paste work. Most people just be 5 to 10-K. Some a little bit more again on the extremes but walk us through what that world workout would look like and then what the recoveries would look like for that as well. Yeah, I think I gave an example at the beginning of this video related to five workout extending at five k. To 10-K. If you're doing shorter intervals. Typically you can expect if you're holding that pace you can probably do a short recovery jog of about 200 to 600 m. So you should be feeling good enough where you can kind of keep rolling through it. You shouldn't be so exhausted that you quite need to stand there may be standing recovery if we get into a longer rep perhaps like an eight huh 102 mile repeat.
Which you may do for that distance. And one thing I do recommend with some of my athletes, I think it's okay to start off with a like a walker standing recovery and then if it's longer you can kind of ease into a jog that way you get the blood flow and it's not so jarring once you start the next rep. Sure, yeah. And again, these are it's like this all these workouts can be carved in so many different ways, right? It's you can you can it's endless, you know? But for example, I mean if you have 200 at five k pace, that's not too hard of a workout, Right? So a lot of times you can kind of go in and out with those 200. So if you do a 205 k pace, you're jogging for 200 you repeat that. Yeah. And it's always it's important to remember that the goal is not always to run as fast as you can, you know, a lot of times that we save ourselves from risk of injury, we're hitting the right pace work. All that we need to do by hitting that pace, right? So we keep the recovery light allowing yourself to recover but not too much, you know, that you're just standing around, like we don't need to just stand around for just doing 200 m reps, but, you know, as that gets upwards in distance, if you're doing three by one mile at five k pace, that's a pretty hard workout, you know, I've done five minutes recovery for that before or an 800 m jog, you know, I've done both of those.
But again, if you're, if you're training for a five k and these type of this type of work is the work that if you're five or 10-K focused, you're going to eventually end up reducing that rest, right? Until, you know, instead of taking two or three minutes between reps, you're taking 60 seconds if you're training four or five k or 10-K, and that's how you're checking on your fitness to know that you're progressing, right, right? You know what we're talking about marathons, you know, we're trying to going through a block of speed training some power work that we need to focus on the goal. There is not to really shortcut that recovery, right? We want big recovery because we're just hitting pace. We want to be as efficient as possible. We don't want to reduce or we don't want to induce any risk for injury. So for this type of work, you know, just like you said, I think it's, you know, you want to, you can take standing rest at first, but then from there, you know, I recommend kind of getting in a little bit job, you know, if it's two or three minutes when you're running outdoors, hearing your surroundings like traffic and other runners around you is critical to staying safe and healthy.
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I've seen five by K, you know, around like five K effort at altitude with two or three minutes recovery. That's pretty common cases are tough. Yeah, so, so tell everybody, like when you're doing that type of work, how do you adjust it, like personally, how do you adjust the work if it's not going your way and given, we know that you're training for a marathon? So the specificity is a little bit lesson because it's a five K. But it's still important because it's a very um it supports the speed side of your training, but tell us how, how you personally will adjust a workout within, within the workout itself, whether that's the pace, whether that's a recovery, whether that's the distance, what do you do personally now in this range? Like I'm actually, well this is up in there, but I'm debating doing a five K. Time trial later this week. So if I'm really focused on the pace, they're like, I want to run the one K. At my desired five K pace and especially being at altitude, I'm gonna give myself some leeway, so I've priority already done an adjustment because we're at 7000 ft.
But then in addition, if I'm kind of feeling off before I change the paces of the intervals, I'll try to extend the rest, maybe if I'm at two minutes jogging rest, I'll extend it to three and then see if I can hit that one K at the pace that I want from there. If you're really having an off day, I might Consider shortening it to 800 or and still keeping that pace because that's really the purpose of that workout. Usually I want to know I can handle that five k pace. I think we'll get onto it later in the video where there are some cases where you want to just totally abandon ship and call it a day. A lot of people tend to think that, you know, if you're not, they don't want to cut recovery because they feel like that's so important, right? And so, you know, they're going there and they're trying to get it out and like it gets slower and slower and slower. But what you're doing is is a good way where you can manipulate things, right? It's not a bad workout. If you have to cut it from case to an 800 right? It's not a bad workout. If you have to move from 2 to 3 minutes, we always have to adjust based on the day, you're not always going to be perfect.
It's not always gonna be perfect. But for this type of work, I do agree with you that the speed of its important, right? So you want to focus on, hey, maybe that was a job recovery that becomes a walk, maybe that was two minutes, it becomes three minutes, right? Um but ultimately you don't want to be taking 56 minutes to do 800 right? You want to make sure that the recovery is enough to where you can recover just enough to repeat it. Right? Again, anybody can go and run a hundreds of five gay pace and take five or 10 minutes recovery and do it again. Right? We all know this, but we're getting the benefit from the recovery itself. Yeah. And the last thing before I handed off to you to talk about the next category, I'd say when we talk about it's okay if it's a shuffle. I mean you've been there watching me during some of these one K reps and that I have like maybe 200 m recovery and it's really just baby steps, especially elevation, but as long as it's moving, creating more blood flow than I would be walking, that's fine because I mean you're just standing there.
I mean things just start to pull next rep can feel much harder, right? You start feel heavy, feels like lead in your system. You don't want to do that. So again, a shuffle is fine, you know, it doesn't have to be necessary distance tailored to it always, but a good a good uh like you're saying just like a shuffle, kind of just keep it moving, blood flow perfect, I want to make sure we got that across. So you want to tell us a little bit about threshold? Yeah, so threshold, So typically thresholds gonna be again the pace is anywhere from like your about an hour, but you can race for about an hour and for recoveries. I would recommend that you take a minute for every five minutes to you know, it's from every mile for every mile will take about a minute. Again as this is kind of this bell curves a little bit so if you if your mind for five minutes versus per mile And again this can be just a little bit but typically you want to stay between 60 and 90 because you just really want to kind of come up and brush up against that threshold, that buffering buffer that you want to be able to buffer lactic acid and you don't want to kind of go over the edge there, right, and it's really easy to do that with threshold work.
You know, we've all probably done the tempo run at some point in time and turned a tempo run into a threshold death march. So we don't want to cross that we just kind of want to rub up against it, say hello and then kind of reset and then just keep kind of just this undulation of just working at the threshold pace that's really gonna help boost your endurance really make you stronger runner from anywhere from, you know, the five K to the marathon, I'd say. Um with that specific type of work. So with threshold work I always recommend jogging recovery. Again, you're you're wanting to increase the buffering capacity of waste products like to ask in your muscle, so to do this, you want to keep moving and threshold pace shouldn't be a pace, that's too hard. You know, Again, if you are working too hard on threshold eight hundreds and the recovery is not enough, you're probably running that too fast. This is one of those workouts, so you can entirely adjust the pace, you can adjust the pace. Always keep the recovery short recovery, fast acting marathon runners and and specific specifically should love threshold running because getting strong with short recovery is the essence of being good at the marathon.
So for this, I would recommend always jogging recovery short recovery every five minutes to about a mile 60 seconds. So if I've done two miles, I recommend to two minutes of recovery, three miles, three minutes of recovery, very rarely ever doing four minutes because I don't like to do much more than 20 minutes at a time of this space. Um And this type of case work is actually really good when you're integrating into marathon training as well. So, you know, like we said, you know, you might kind of do some threshold work mixed in with some marathon paced work, you might be that alternating in a fart like style, which leads me to fart Lakes, which is the biggest pet peeve of mine and I'm sure you could say we just talked about this a couple episodes so far. Like you're not ever walking, always running every single time is on your schedule and you're walking, you're not like you're doing intervals again big, but Again, we'll move on threshold running every five minutes to around a mile, 60 seconds. If you're doing a mile at 60 seconds recovery, if you're in two miles, that's around two and again, anything in between it can be adjusted so it doesn't have to be 60, can be 60-90 just depending on where you are.
If you're in the heat, humidity, that stuff can get adjusted. But for this type of work, you can adjust the pace if that allows you to be consistent throughout. Did you have anything to add to that? I think you covered in depth there. So listen to our last, our last definition, which is gonna be tempo running and tell us about the job recovery recovery there and finally, to bring it home with the tempo work staple of marathoners. Uh this is gonna be jog recovery throughout. So common when I think of might be like three by two miles, three sets of two mile. So you might do that at marathon pace or just a tad faster, a good common recovery in between. Might be 400 to 800 m jog recovery. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you can even extend that up, two miles you could go depending on how much volume you're getting in that day and Sure, sure, yeah, it's a marathon specific workout that might be in the middle of a 20 mile run. Right? So the goal might be to get as much volume as you can within 20 miles.
So a lot of times we'll have these big recoveries to again add that fatigue factor to the legs. So we always want to make this job recoveries. Right? Um yeah, so one of the big staples of our program of the Hansons program, you know, big marathon group, you know, our Jeff, Jeff actually used to run for Hansen, so very inspired by him. Um a lot of our training is and so he always has like a two by four mile workout, two by six mile workout that a lot of our athletes will see within their programs. two x sixes is tough, Right? And the two x 6 actually has tenants of standing recovery. Can you tell us why exactly? We Would want to not have that being active part of our running because a lot of people in our program will be like 010 minutes, that's too long, but then they kind of find the workout. So yeah, give us an idea of, you know, those 10 minutes and what we should be doing, you know, in that workout specifically. Yeah. So this would be one of the few cases where we're actually going to kind of force you to stop, You can either, I can walk a little bit, but we, we almost want you standing, you may have time to like, uh, you know, obviously recover but get some fluid and possibly fuel, but we actually want to create that sensation that um lactic acid is pulling your legs are kind of locking up.
You're gonna feel that fatigue and it really does sort of simulate the later stages of the marathon. So we want to just get you practicing battling fatigue. Yeah, that's a big one. You know, your body in your mind thinks that, hey, I'm done. You know, if you're sitting around for tenants tenants a long time when you're out there. So like you said, I mean everything, everything you said, you know, it's just, you know, it's simulating those later, those later miles and making you really tired. So that those next six miles, you know, it kind of takes a little bit to get going again and a confession to our athletes. I've seen it. I've assigned that work out a lot and talked to athletes about how it went. I don't think I've taken the full 10 minutes in between. Have you done that longer rest? I know I've done like maybe five or six and even then I lock up. So I'm wondering. Yeah, Yeah, I mean, again, it's one of those workouts to where, you know, it's only 12 miles total, which is plenty for marathon training. But that recovery in there really changes the game. So, you know, just to kind of like, you know, kind of wrap things up a little bit sure.
The big thing that we really want to take home here is that a lot of times, whether it's your, whether you're walking, whether you're jogging, whether you're standing, it's all very relative on the type of work out, when you're doing the work out, why you're doing the work out, the purpose of it is important, right? So they're people who are listening have done a lot of these workouts in a lot of different ways, right? But I think the big thing is just to know why you're doing it and how that plays into the workout that you do, that's the big take home here is that there's no necessarily right or wrong, but there there is right or wrong when it comes to the specifics of the day. So again, you could walk one day and you could run one day between your, your intervals and those might be both true, might just be a bit different how your coach and how your athletes um write it and define that day as a whole.
I think that's, we've pretty much touched upon everything. I really wanted to just touch up on those five pace, you know, pacing, how can we better ourselves within the workout itself because a lot of us just think recovery is recovery and doesn't matter what I do. Um whereas that's actually a big part of the workout itself. Was there anything that you wanted to add that? Maybe we didn't touch up on this point? I think I did, I might have referenced that. It went to bail on a workout. Yes, and just completely not do it. So I think you're gonna know typically when those days are happening, you might just find out from the first interval at the get go that you're not gonna be able to do it. Maybe you've played around with the rest intervals and kind of our adjusting the workout and if you don't have it, you know, there's there's no shame in just jogging off the track or wherever you're doing that workout either making it an easy run, we're taking the day off. We've all had plenty of those days. Right? And I think the more intelligent, the more experienced we get as runners, the more likely we're going to make those decisions and called the day, you know, versus making it worse.
You know, you were talking to me before the podcast and, you know, we were talking about how some athletes, you know, they want to do it the next day, You know, I can expand their a little bit like when you would, would you have an athlete do it again the next day if I had a failed workout, what would you do typically? No. Yeah, often I do think it's a matter of pride there, like, and I get that because I felt that way you want to go back in there, hit the times that you're supposed to or maybe you have that mentality that no, I always have to two workouts per week. I need to hit the two workouts, but in that case sometimes you just gotta move on from it. You're only gonna have one workout that week when this case would really be quality over quantity. Yeah, yeah. Training doesn't always, you know, it's, it's not just what we lay out on the piece of paper, right. Things are always going to change. Nothing ever goes as designated, you know, I was just talking to you today about how often alright schedules for athletes for six months knowing that, you know, that's not the reality of training.
You know, there's ups and downs, There are changes that have to be made there is, you know, that's not just training related. So, you know, when it comes to work like that, one of the best things to do, you know, as you said, just forget about it, move forward and focus on the next one, get rest, be better the next time out and a lot of times if you do that, it will be better the next time out. So again, we're gonna wrap up today. Thanks everybody who's listening on podcast. People who are watching and listening on the Youtube channel, really appreciate your guys. Continual feedback as well as you know, viewership. That means a lot to us and allows us to kind of be excited to do this every single week. Actually had a slight requests or we had a request from some viewers who wanted some notes and annotations in the description. So I'm gonna try to start adding those. It's also helpful for people who might listen to this on the podcast. So if you liked what you heard and you're like, I wanna, I wanna remember the ratios that Coach Dylan mentioned. You can go to our Youtube channel, watch the video there and then if you click in the description, I'll have kind of bullet points of the key thing.
Key takeaways. So you don't have to kind of keep trying to find that spot where we talked about the thing you wanted to apply your training, awesome, cool. So, extra work for me, awesome, awesome. Well, great. Well, thanks everybody for joining today's podcast episode. I hope you're able to gain something informative and something valuable that you can put towards your training moving forward. Again, this is uptempo talks here with runners connect. I'm Coach Dylan Dallas. I'm Coach Roy Money in and it's been great speaking with you today until next time, have a great run today. I hope you enjoyed that episode. I personally found it hugely helpful to understand the variety of rest intervals in what's involved, including the ratios of work to rest and the types of rest which ranged from jogging for a minute to just standing there for after 10 minutes. Absolutes fascinating. What were your takeaways share them with us in the comment section of this episode on either Facebook or Instagram. Thanks for listening to the run to the top podcast. I'm your host, Finn Melanson. As always, our mission here is to help you become a better runner with every episode.
Please consider connecting with me on instagram at Wasatch, Finn and the rest of our team at runners connect. Also consider supporting our show for free with a on the Spotify and apple podcast players. And lastly, if you love the show and want bonus content behind the scenes experiences with our guests and premier access to contests and giveaways. Then subscribe to our newsletter by going to runners connect dot net back slash podcast Until next time. Happy training